Chris Carmichael: "Lance will match & Exceed AC Speed"

[Cerberus]

i already told you can by my general example or not.

Thanks, that was incredibly helpful . So let me see if I get this, your argument boils down to:

1) There is a link between surviving cancer and response to cancer treatment.
2) EPO is a part of cancer treatment.
3) Armstrong survived cancer

Conclusion: Therefore Armstrong likely responds well to EPO. Is that it? That's just ridiculously thin.

 

[python]

Thanks, that was incredibly helpful That's just ridiculously thin.

no that means you are ridiculously thick. i already told three times you are free to buy or not buy a statement yet continue with a bait. goodbye.

 

[blackcat]

what you assumed black cat about epo's role in recovery was not stated. all i did is asked why to separate the two programs. i did not assume nor stated anything about you thoughts on epo's influence on recovery. i just pointed out the complexity. you can go back and review my posts. we agree that gts are about recovery and various doping programs are at play and in synergy.
a hematologist like ferrari is likely working with an unnamed endocrinologist to
better administer testo, hgh etc that would be often called hormonal doping even though epo is also a hormone. the whole area of blood doping(including epo, hbt, abt, artificial blood substitutes) is probably supported by the specialists in several medical fields. a syou said, armstrong is likely garnered the seat spot due to his unlimited resources and not the least being a good, smart student.

but not all the gear they will be fed is synergistic. Strychnine or sh!t that works on the CNS may aid recovery on all systems, but it basically targets the CNS, and that is it.

Note: just an example, got no knowledge about strychnine other than that supposedly Flo-Jo was on that amongst other gear.

But I would disagree that all dope acts in synergy. Yeah, the hormones like EPO have flow on effects. Or direct effects on multiple systems. But not all will work like that. They have it at such an art, as Big Boat says, it really is trauma medicine transposed to a different battlefield.

 

[Cerberus]

no that means you are ridiculously thick. i already told three times you are free to buy or not buy a statement yet continue with a bait. goodbye.

When people say idiotic things I like to make sure I haven't misunderstood, I'm glad to see that isn't the case. Also asking for evidence is not considered "baiting" where I come from, but I guess it's different when you have none.

 

[python]

but not all the gear they will be fed is synergistic. Strychnine or sh!t that works on the CNS may aid recovery on all systems, but it basically targets the CNS, and that is it.

Note: just an example, got no knowledge about strychnine other than that supposedly Flo-Jo was on that amongst other gear.

But I would disagree that all dope acts in synergy. Yeah, the hormones like EPO have flow on effects. Or direct effects on multiple systems. But not all will work like that. They have it at such an art, as Big Boat says, it really is trauma medicine transposed to a different battlefield.

you have an interesting manner of disagreeing with what was not stated by me.
or if you disagreed with someone hypothetical you again forgot to state that you assumed it. where did you see me referring to all cns drugs or to all programs being in synergy. we were talking about armstrong's program - the assumption is he is using something more sophisticated than strychnine - and his programs are obviously good and in synergy.

 

[Ferminal]

come on, Bro was using license, but go ahead and invoke Godwin's if you feel it is valid.

Welcome back!

 

[python]

When people say idiotic things I like to make sure I haven't misunderstood, I'm glad to see that isn't the case. Also asking for evidence is not considered "baiting" where I come from, but I guess it's different when you have none.

idiotic is your lack of common sense when someone told you several times to buy it or not,something very simple - someone's opinion.

 

[Cerberus]

idiotic is your lack of common sense when someone told you several times to buy it or not,something very simple - someone's opinion.

Some people form opinions based on facts, logic or evidence. I guess you don't. I'll bear that in mind in the future.

 

[python]

Some people form opinions based on facts, logic or evidence. I guess you don't. I'll bear that in mind in the future.

i have no interest in how you form opinions. i care little about what you will bear or not in your mind. you lack common sense.

 

[tubularglue]

Are you saying there is a link between response to chemo and EPO. Sorry, but I have a great deal of trouble buying that notion. Did you immunologist friend explain where he was getting that notion from?

http://www.drugs.com/neupogen.html funny how this is an Amgen product

during chemo mid summer, i was shooting myself up at home with neupogen, cause my white cell count had plummeted. When you go through chemo cycles it is like being poisoned to death. They inject you with chemicals along with anti nausea medicines filled with steroids so that your system feels as normal as possible.

I saw a women get injected with EPO, at the end one day, after she got a big bag of blood. She was a regular customer. She had a permanent blood disease.

I am just starting to feel back to normal, while riding - but i have lingering problems with the after effects of swelling/nerve damage in my hands and feet.

chemo doesn't make your body stronger. that is bullshyt. It only has the ability to extend the patients life. It has damaging effects/affects

i don't understand why his red cell count plummeted during chemo and the need for epo, but i could understand it during surgery and its recovery. Always hit me as odd, this part of his story.

 

[ChrisE]

I think I read Flandis used a patch and put it on his balls.

After a wild night with my girlfriend (see avatar) I had to put a patch on my scrotum area as well. You guys should be so lucky.

 

[Ferminal]

Are you saying there is a link between response to chemo and EPO. Sorry, but I have a great deal of trouble buying that notion. Did you immunologist friend explain where he was getting that notion from?

If EPO/whatever booster he was using to recover from chemo worked well, it would work well in a doping program.

 

[ChrisE]

I was refering to the instant message conversation with Vaughters and his remarks about blood transfusions in 2005. It is gossip from someone who was not in LA's circle and does not know. Rumours swirl around all the time in the village during the tour. I take it with a pinch of salt. I tend to think Armstrong was clean for at least his last couple of tours, which is why the attacks slowed down.

It appears a village has lost an idiot.

 

[red_flanders]

While not denying this, it seems to me that there are some knowledge gaps about Indurain's early career:

Age 19: National Champion in the Road Race for U23
Becomes Pro at 20
Age 20: Wins ITT in Tour de l'Avenir
Age 20: 2nd in Vuelta prologue. Youngest ever yellow jersey wearer (4 days), a record he still holds
Age 22: Finishes his first TdF
Age 22: Wins 2 ITTs and GC in Tour de l'Avenir
Age 22: Wins Vuelta a los Valles Mineros, a hilly 5-days stage race in Asturias
Age 24: Wins Volta a Catalunya, 7-days stage race
Age 24: Wins Paris-Nice
Age 25: Wins mountain stage in TdF (Cauterets)
Age 25: Wins ITT in Criterium International
Age 25: Wins Paris-Nice
Age 25: 3rd in Flèche Wallonne
Age 25: 7th in Vuelta a España
Age 26: 2nd in TdF ITT. Wins mountain stage in Luz Ardiden. Finishes 10th at 12' 47" of Lemond. It is estimated that he lost about 12 minutes working for his team leader Delgado
http://translate.google.com/transla...o/1228124670.html&sl=es&tl=en&history_state0=
Age 26: Wins Clasica de San Sebastian
Age 26: 2nd in Vuelta a España, lost time to winner Mauri in 2 TTTs and 2 ITTs, queen stage suspended due to snow.

The rest after this is well known. I'm not sure we can say that he came out of nowhere. He did not progress uniformly is his GT standings, but we cannot say that of his TT ability or his results in 1-week stage races including hard climbs. He did never ride well under cold/rainy weather (Vuelta was in April at that time and the weather in the mountains is awful at that season of the year), and for the Tour he had a clear boss (Delgado) until 1990.

Good post. No argument that he showed talent early on. Also no question that he was an early adopter and completely transformed into an alien during his winning run.

 

[Cerberus]

If EPO/whatever booster he was using to recover from chemo worked well, it would work well in a doping program.

Yes, that would make sense, but that's not what python is saying. Unless we had LA's medical file there's no way to tell whether he responded particularly well to the EPO. No way that I can think of anyway, and if python knows one, he's not sharing. Thanks for giving an actual reasonable response to my post though.

 

[tubularglue]

"If EPO/whatever booster " - produces a given/proven results.

lance armstrong was/is a positive responder to his chemo drugs because he lived through the process/treatment. not really hard to understand.

this in no way makes hims special, gifted, abnormal just lucky

no beams of light/no pedestal

As far as his trainers witchcraft, marketing hysteria - $

 

[CentralCaliBike]

"If EPO/whatever booster " - produces a given/proven results.

lance armstrong was/is a positive responder to his chemo drugs because he lived through the process/treatment. not really hard to understand.

this in no way makes hims special, gifted, abnormal just lucky

no beams of light/no pedestal

As far as his trainers witchcraft, marketing hysteria - $

I really do not want to make light of the term lucky at all, however, I believe he was a very lucky on many levels: no major accidents during the year to interrupt his training; no accidents during the tour; the Beloki incident and the mussette bag incident (both could have had much more serious results); and lastly, no mechanical or flats at critical points.

 

[Cerberus]

"If EPO/whatever booster " - produces a given/proven results.

lance armstrong was/is a positive responder to his chemo drugs because he lived through the process/treatment. not really hard to understand.

this in no way makes hims special, gifted, abnormal just lucky

Exactly my point, clearly he responded to chemo, and probably to the EPO as well, no reason why he wouldn't, but nothing I've heard suggest he reacted exceptionally to either EPO or chemo.

 

[Anonymous]

Which one is Carmichael?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

TFF - I think the guy's a hack as well who gives real coaches a bad name, but that's a little uncalled for.

 

[Anonymous]

TFF - I think the guy's a hack as well who gives real coaches a bad name, but that's a little uncalled for.

But its funny.

 

[Sprocket01]

CentralCaliBike,

excellent job in this thread. You make some of the points I make but in a more articulate way, which means you don't get all the nonsense I get thrown at me that distracts from the issue. Good to read it.

Too many people want to have it both ways. They claim EPO transformed tour riding in the early 1990s, leaving previous tour winners like Lemond in the bus, and then claim Armstrong would not have won a tour because he didn't shine in the GTs in this same era. It's completely contradictory.

I've seen no evidence to suggest Armstrong would not be a multi tour winner if the peloton was 100% clean and he had had his same cancer experience. People may hate it, but he is rightfully and deservedly one of the all time great ToF riders. I think most people in cycling recognise this, even if they may not like him as an individual.

 

[Mellow Velo]

excellent job in this thread. You make some of the points I make but in a more articulate way, which means you don't get all the nonsense I get thrown at me that distracts from the issue. Good to read it.

You get stuff thrown at you because you come out with ridiculous conclusions such as, Lance came off the juice in 2004/5, because he was slowing down.
Apart from the fact Armstrong dominated the 2004 Tour, you conveniently forget that he did his "slowing down", in 2003, when, according to what you have already posted on this thread, he was still using.

You see no evidence, other than that which formulates behind your own closed eyes.

 

[Race Radio]

To clarify some of the statements made on this thread

Grand Tour greats show their talent early

Prior to EPO GT greats showed their talent at an early age and started to decline late 20's early 30's

Bernard Hinault-Winner of TdF at 23, retired at 31
Bernard Thévenet- 4th place TdF age 23, retired at 33
Eddy Merckx- Won at TdF 24, retired at 33
Jacques Anquetil- Won at TdF 23, retired at 33
Laurent Fignon- Won TDF at 22, retired at 33
Greg LeMond- 3rd Tdf at 23, retired at 31
Stephen Roche- 13th at 23, 3rd at 25, retired at 33

Armstrong show no promise during his first GT rides, during a time when clean riders like Hampsten (who got 4th in the Tour at 24) and Lemond were still able to finish in the top 10 of the Tour. The myth that GT riders learn, mature, and reach their peak in their early 30's is just that, a myth.

Super Responder

This is a common term in medicine and pharmaceutical research. The fact is not all humans respond to drugs in the same manner. This is true of all drugs, not just PED's. One of the most popular drugs ever developed, Claritin, worked in less then 50% of patients. There are studies of EPO that show a wide variance of response (3-18% increase in output). I think we can all agree that the 90's and 2000's GT were ruled by riders who have the best doping program as well as responded the best to EPO. Riis, Pantani, Ulrich, Armstrong, are all on this list. There are many riders who tried EPO, yet received little boost. Stephen Rooks started using EPO in 1991. He has said he saw little benefit and went from the TdF KOM to an also ran in a few years.

Evolution of doping programs

It took a while for EPO to be wide spread in the Pro Peloton but also for riders and doctors to understand how to use it and develop training and doping methods around it. Early mistakes not only resulted in death but also a mistimed shot can result in your body using too much energy increasing Hct.

In the 1990's the best doping doctors (Ferrari, Checchini later Fuentes) realized a major stumbling block with EPO. While it was very effective in increasing the body's ability to deliver oxygen to the muscles if the rider had limited muscle mass to absorb this oxygen the improvement was limited. The result was climbers riding all out with a placid, calm, look on their face. Showing no sign of fatigue.

Building muscle mass in the off season, often with steroids, became a key part of success. According to Frankie Andreau after Armstrong started working with Ferrari he showed up to training camp "Looking like a linebacker". While Ulrich was criticized for being getting fat in the off season if you ever saw him in the early season races you would be shocked by his legs, they looked like a body builders. Marco Pantani's Masseur said that Marco had the most dense muscle mass of any rider he had ever worked on. He had "Muscles on top of muscles" Most of this was centered around his core and gluts resulting in his unique, in the drops, climbing style.

As July came close riders, with the help of their doctors, tried to strike the perfect balance of muscle and weight. Riis and Armstrong were two of the best at this. Simply put it is impossible for a clean athlete to compete with this level of sophistication. It is so much more then just injecting EPO it is also almost impossible for a rider to compete without sophisticated year long program.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Simply put it is impossible for a clean athlete to compete with this level of sophistication. It is so much more then just injecting EPO it is also almost impossible for a rider to compete without sophisticated year long program.

And thus the money to pay for a sophisticated year-long program. So the little guy never has a chance? Or they take risks using poor-quality medical advice.