Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[MatParker1711]

Re: Re:

As I stated, the 2014 season has been debated to death. However, ass kicking implies that there was a large gap between riders. That was not the case in 2014; it was very close between both.

Regardless of 2014, this year is much more valuable in predictive power for the future. So we should be spending more time analyzing that than arguing about who was better in '14.

Yep, it was very close in 2014. In 2013 and 2015 the mighty Froome kicked the old chipmunk's ass. So in the average of three years it's Froome who has been the man.

2015 =Well he could have tried if he had the balls to have entered the Giro but he did not . Lucky for him as Astana would have kicked his as% and Aru will kick it in next years tour.
I doubt Froome would be capable of finishing the Tour if he had rode the Giro. He was hanging on for his life with a week and a half to go. If he had the giro in his legs he would have dropped out. He always ill you know

I do recall at the start of the season "2015" Bertie beating Froome in a tt and dropping froome from 10km?
Did you miss that one?

Remind me who won that race? Also who had twice the wins this year?

 

[dacooley]

straight after the dauphiné the guys who gave birth to current discussion many times said froome can't descend, handle a bike, ride in the rain, wind, doesn't have a proper tactical sense, lacks an experience of racing against really qualitive field, he's not a racer and not a leader etc, etc. - and as a result he has the lesser among big 4 chance of taking the big one. froome rode the tour brilliantly, from my point of view. but nothing seems to be changed for his detractors, they as usual try to ascribe froome's win to luck, bad form of opponents, wrong tactics of movistar. the funniest thing is if bertie'd won the tour (no matter how without giro in the legs, by 5 seconds or by means of wind split) the same folks would've stayed in ovation and there would've been 0 mentions about luck.

the bottom line is if someone strongly dislike froome, almost nothing can sway its opinion and no matter what froome does, he'll get a very critical treatment.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

As I stated, the 2014 season has been debated to death. However, ass kicking implies that there was a large gap between riders. That was not the case in 2014; it was very close between both.

Regardless of 2014, this year is much more valuable in predictive power for the future. So we should be spending more time analyzing that than arguing about who was better in '14.

Yep, it was very close in 2014. In 2013 and 2015 the mighty Froome kicked the old chipmunk's ass. So in the average of three years it's Froome who has been the man.

2015 =Well he could have tried if he had the balls to have entered the Giro but he did not . Lucky for him as Astana would have kicked his as% and Aru will kick it in next years tour.
I doubt Froome would be capable of finishing the Tour if he had rode the Giro. He was hanging on for his life with a week and a half to go. If he had the giro in his legs he would have dropped out. He always ill you know

I do recall at the start of the season "2015" Bertie beating Froome in a tt and dropping froome from 10km?
Did you miss that one?

it's just a bias. contador has his own career and plans, so does froome. no one should copy anyone's schedule in this regard and no one owes anything to anyone. bertie decided to try to do the giro-tour double, though the buffer between him and froome in 2014 had shown the likelihood of the double was tiny little imo. froome got beaten in the vuelta but generally speaking he was nearby contador. if you accuse froome of cowardice and not going to the giro, you should see the opposite side of the medals - contador dodging a straightforward battle against froome in the tour.

Bertie has never avoided Froome. Did he not line up at last years tour ? did he not line up at this years tour?
Did he not line up at last years Vuelta? Did he not line up in 2013 tour? did he line up at last years dauphine?
Did Froome line up in this years giro ?
Who has avoided who?

obviously no one avoided anyone, but according to your logic, froome must take the contador's challenge whereas bertie himself can do anything he wants.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

No. I enjoy having a debate " speaking for myself here"
Its not disruption. Go a head and start a Froome appreciation thread.
Debate/ banter is fine. I have free will and the right to opine.

The fact that IMO Froome is over rated and been fairly lucky to win 2 tours, is just that " my opinion"

dacooley "obviously no one avoided anyone, but according to your logic, froome must take the contador's challenge whereas bertie himself can do anything he wants"

Froome made it clear that he preferred the Giro route when the 2015 tour route was announced. He said that he would go away and discuss his plans. He favoured the Giro it was better suited.
Bertie then announced his plans for the double and that he was going to ride the Giro.
Froome then decided to ride the tour and not the Giro. Obviously avoiding a in form Bertie and rather race him in the tour when he is tired and he has more chance of Victory.
If Bertie had not rode the Giro this year Froome would have.

 

[dacooley]

the reality is that aint 2009 or 2011 anymore and it's not unreasonable to consider froome the strongest gc rider / climbing specialist for the last 3-4 seasons on aggregate. though, it can certainly annoy fans of the other big riders.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

Froome made it clear that he preferred the Giro route when the 2015 tour route was announced. He said that he would go away and discuss his plans. He favoured the Giro it was better suited.
Bertie then announced his plans for the double and that he was going to ride the Giro.

that could be just a diplomatic statement, a coincidence, whatever... there wasn't so much space between them in the vuelta that froome even mused about avoiding contador.

Obviously avoiding a in form Bertie and rather race him in the tour when he is tired and he has more chance of Victory. If Bertie had not rode the Giro this year Froome would have.

that's not obvious in any way, just your doubtful vision of the situation which you serve as though that's a fact.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

the reality is that aint 2009 or 2011 anymore and it's not unreasonable to consider froome the strongest gc rider / climbing specialist for the last 3-4 seasons on aggregate. though, it can certainly annoy fans of the other big riders.

I agree Its certainly not unreasonable after all he has won 2 tours. But in reality he certainly is not the strongest climber. He been beaten to many times for that to be a serious claim.
He has still not beaten a in form Bertie. If had defeated Bertie last year then I would not be having this discussion.
But Froome could not handle Bertie last year.
It seemed so easy . We would get to see them race the tour , both on top form. Its just not happened.
I am not convinced that it will happen next year. I hope it does But Froome seems to have " cough cough" health issues and we have to wait and see if Bertie can get back to his best.
Aru is the tour fav if you ask me. If Aru and Astana were in the same position that Quintana was in going into the last week of this years tour Aru would have won by at least a minute maybe 2.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

I know I shouldn't respond but this forum needs some objectivity from time to time. Your argument is hysterical. Froome dominated the opening two stages of the Dauphine. Winning the ITT convincingly and then following up that with a superb performance on the second stage. Contador was with him all the time but, to me, Froome was clearly the stronger one and it looked like Contador was pretty tired at the finish. And before you start ranting about me "being a delusional fanboy", ask yourself this, how often has Contador never attacked when in good shape?

Where's your response for this Flo? Contador was undoubtably better in 2014 than at any other time following his ban, but why was he unable to pass Froome one month before the Tour after sitting on his wheel when Froome was attacking again and again? Yeah Froome may have peaked slightly early, but he was even more dominant in the Dauphine the previous year, so his peak was clearly much closer to AC. For what it's worth, AC himself is one of my favourite 3 riders, but his fans just make me despise him with their lack of objectivity and using personal hatred to attack others

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I know I shouldn't respond but this forum needs some objectivity from time to time. Your argument is hysterical. Froome dominated the opening two stages of the Dauphine. Winning the ITT convincingly and then following up that with a superb performance on the second stage. Contador was with him all the time but, to me, Froome was clearly the stronger one and it looked like Contador was pretty tired at the finish. And before you start ranting about me "being a delusional fanboy", ask yourself this, how often has Contador never attacked when in good shape?

Where's your response for this Flo? Contador was undoubtably better in 2014 than at any other time following his ban, but why was he unable to pass Froome one month before the Tour after sitting on his wheel when Froome was attacking again and again? Yeah Froome may have peaked slightly early, but he was even more dominant in the Dauphine the previous year, so his peak was clearly much closer to AC. For what it's worth, AC himself is one of my favourite 3 riders, but his fans just make me despise him with their lack of objectivity and using personal hatred to attack others

Do I need to respond? Walkman is on my ignore list anyway. And if I make you despise Contador, you clearly didn't like him all that much to begin with. Ridiculous reasoning "boohoo you made me despise one of my 3 favorite riders "
de·spise (dĭ-spīz′)
tr.v. de·spised, de·spis·ing, de·spis·es
1. To regard with contempt or scorn: despised all cowards and flatterers.
2. To dislike intensely; loathe: despised the frigid weather in January.

yeah sure

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

I know I shouldn't respond but this forum needs some objectivity from time to time. Your argument is hysterical. Froome dominated the opening two stages of the Dauphine. Winning the ITT convincingly and then following up that with a superb performance on the second stage. Contador was with him all the time but, to me, Froome was clearly the stronger one and it looked like Contador was pretty tired at the finish. And before you start ranting about me "being a delusional fanboy", ask yourself this, how often has Contador never attacked when in good shape?

Where's your response for this Flo? Contador was undoubtably better in 2014 than at any other time following his ban, but why was he unable to pass Froome one month before the Tour after sitting on his wheel when Froome was attacking again and again? Yeah Froome may have peaked slightly early, but he was even more dominant in the Dauphine the previous year, so his peak was clearly much closer to AC. For what it's worth, AC himself is one of my favourite 3 riders, but his fans just make me despise him with their lack of objectivity and using personal hatred to attack others

Do I need to respond? Walkman is on my ignore list anyway. And if I make you despise Contador, you clearly didn't like him all that much to begin with. Ridiculous reasoning "boohoo you made me despise one of my 3 favorite riders "
de·spise (dĭ-spīz′)
tr.v. de·spised, de·spis·ing, de·spis·es
1. To regard with contempt or scorn: despised all cowards and flatterers.
2. To dislike intensely; loathe: despised the frigid weather in January.

yeah sure

Yeah, erm I meant one of my fav 3 active stage racers, not fav 3 riders , and it's not just you, believe me, it's quite a few AC fans (not necessarily on this forum)

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

the reality is that aint 2009 or 2011 anymore and it's not unreasonable to consider froome the strongest gc rider / climbing specialist for the last 3-4 seasons on aggregate. though, it can certainly annoy fans of the other big riders.

I agree Its certainly not unreasonable after all he has won 2 tours. But in reality he certainly is not the strongest climber. He been beaten to many times for that to be a serious claim.
He has still not beaten a in form Bertie. If had defeated Bertie last year then I would not be having this discussion.
But Froome could not handle Bertie last year.
It seemed so easy . We would get to see them race the tour , both on top form. Its just not happened.
I am not convinced that it will happen next year. I hope it does But Froome seems to have " cough cough" health issues and we have to wait and see if Bertie can get back to his best.
Aru is the tour fav if you ask me. If Aru and Astana were in the same position that Quintana was in going into the last week of this years tour Aru would have won by at least a minute maybe 2.

your argument doesn't have any criteria of an accurate assessment. yes, froome hasn't beaten an in form contador so far, but when one big rider outclimbs the other one it inebitably entails an idea of inferior rider not being in top form. so if contador beats froome, anyone might rise an objection that froome is not in peak conditions and such an argument will be as valid as yours.

nobody argues that contador outperformed froome in all respects in 2014 on equal ground. nonetheless froome
did absolutely the same with contador in 2013 even more convincingly and you simply can't justify it by off-year. we are saying about best of the best cyclists and it's unacceptable to conduct such a discussion in the language of excuses. they are big athletes who run a risk and always live under the danger of having an off-year. in the end, what happened in 2013 and 2014 has already become history and it has zero impact on what we'll see in 2015. god only knows why you constantly remember the 2014 vuelta like a moment of ultimate truth.

 

[Carols]

Alberto says Froome is the biggest challenge of his entire career. I believe him, and I think that says it all. Froome is a force to be reckoned with since he suddenly became world class in 2011. In that time he has won 2 GTs and shows no signs of slowing down. He seems susceptible to illness and injury but when he is on form he is formidable. Since he 'emerged' late his career will most likely fall shy of legend status, but I'd never count the guy out of any race he enters.

 

[staubsauger]

Froome and Contador ain't been facing each other on equal levels except maybe the Vuelta last year, which still was more of an in race training session for Froome, and Andalucia this year, which still was a preparation race. 2013 ain't no reference to me as Contador's shape ain't been representative for his quality all year long. Something which Flo even disagrees with as she gives that year in favor of Froome.

I also doubt that they gonna face each other on equal terms anytime soon. Unless Contador beats Froome at next years Tour. Because if not, it arguably was his last season, he ain't been the same class as during his prime etc. That would all be legit arguments next year.

So all this “Froome is the biggest opponent of my/his career“ talk is pure nonsense to me. They never faced each other and probably ain't been going to do so ever.

Contador's strongest opponent is the only one who would've beaten him in peak-shape. Maybe, maybe Landa as he really dropped a peak-shape Alberto this year when every time Contador originally intended to respond.

These two: Rasmussen & Landa.

Not Schleck, not Ricco, not Froome. At least for me personally!

And this endless Froome versus Contador. Contador versus Froome chat has become annoying long time ago. But to be fair: Flo actually is one of the few fangirls or boys that sometimes is able to give credits to other riders in a chilled moment. Even to Froome as pointed out before. So it's a bit harsh from my pov to majorely point out at her.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

the reality is that aint 2009 or 2011 anymore and it's not unreasonable to consider froome the strongest gc rider / climbing specialist for the last 3-4 seasons on aggregate. though, it can certainly annoy fans of the other big riders.

I agree Its certainly not unreasonable after all he has won 2 tours. But in reality he certainly is not the strongest climber. He been beaten to many times for that to be a serious claim.
He has still not beaten a in form Bertie. If had defeated Bertie last year then I would not be having this discussion.
But Froome could not handle Bertie last year.
It seemed so easy . We would get to see them race the tour , both on top form. Its just not happened.
I am not convinced that it will happen next year. I hope it does But Froome seems to have " cough cough" health issues and we have to wait and see if Bertie can get back to his best.
Aru is the tour fav if you ask me. If Aru and Astana were in the same position that Quintana was in going into the last week of this years tour Aru would have won by at least a minute maybe 2.

your argument doesn't have any criteria of an accurate assessment. yes, froome hasn't beaten an in form contador so far, but when one big rider outclimbs the other one it inebitably entails an idea of inferior rider not being in top form. so if contador beats froome, anyone might rise an objection that froome is not in peak conditions and such an argument will be as valid as yours.

nobody argues that contador outperformed froome in all respects in 2014 on equal ground. nonetheless froome
did absolutely the same with contador in 2013 even more convincingly and you simply can't justify it by off-year. we are saying about best of the best cyclists and it's unacceptable to conduct such a discussion in the language of excuses. they are big athletes who run a risk and always live under the danger of having an off-year. in the end, what happened in 2013 and 2014 has already become history and it has zero impact on what we'll see in 2015. god only knows why you constantly remember the 2014 vuelta like a moment of ultimate truth.

Come on play fair. Are you seriously saying that Bertie was in top form in 2013.
Next you will be saying that Wiggo was the best tour winner ever.
I have said countless times that I rate Froome.
I don't think we will get the race we want . I think last years vuelta and the dauphine is probally as good as it will get.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

...saying that Bertie was in top form in 2013.
Next you will be saying that Wiggo was the best tour winner ever.
I have said countless times that I rate Froome.
I don't think we will get the race we want . I think last years vuelta and the dauphine is probally as good as it will get.

i'm just all for the discussion without excuses.

wiggins deserved his tour. i'm convinced with those parcours and froome as a domestique de luxe at hand, he would've won that race even if contador had taken part.

 

[SeriousSam]

Looks like he is earnestly aiming for the Golden Triple. The Tour de France, Olympic Gold in the RR, Olympic Gold in the ITT. The mindset and confidence of a dominant champion, or hubris?

“It's going to be an exciting year, that's for sure. The main focus for me is going to be the Tour de France again, but just on the back of the Tour de France, we have got the Olympic road race over in Rio, and a few days following that, potentially the Olympic time trial is also on the cards,” Froome told Sky Sports in a recent interview.

"Both the road race and the time trial do suit me very well. The time trial has over 1,000m of climbing in it, so it's going to be a tough time trial. I think it's over 50km, so for an individual time trial, that is a long event. Given the road race is over 250km, I think, with close to 5,000m of climbing, that's a tough race - really tough race - and if the form is still good come the end of the Tour de France, hopefully I'll be up for a shot at the road race.”

"That's a massive goal to set and I think I'm just going to have to take each event as it comes, but it's exciting. It's really exciting."

Winning all 3 would be incredible, and incredibly unlikely (<3% I would say), but if anyone could do it, it's Froome

 

[Brullnux]

I still don't rate Froome in one day races, purely on the fact he has never done well in any of them and the only one he has targeted which was nearly as hard as this was Firenze 2013, where he has a DNF to show for his efforts there.

TDF maybe, TT probably not because Domoulin.

 

[SeriousSam]

And Dumoulin said the OITT is his main target, right? Given his climbing powers he's got to be the favourite.

 

[damian13ster]

Re:

Froome and Contador ain't been facing each other on equal levels except maybe the Vuelta last year, which still was more of an in race training session for Froome, and Andalucia this year, which still was a preparation race. 2013 ain't no reference to me as Contador's shape ain't been representative for his quality all year long. Something which Flo even disagrees with as she gives that year in favor of Froome.

I also doubt that they gonna face each other on equal terms anytime soon. Unless Contador beats Froome at next years Tour. Because if not, it arguably was his last season, he ain't been the same class as during his prime etc. That would all be legit arguments next year.

So all this “Froome is the biggest opponent of my/his career“ talk is pure nonsense to me. They never faced each other and probably ain't been going to do so ever.

Contador's strongest opponent is the only one who would've beaten him in peak-shape. Maybe, maybe Landa as he really dropped a peak-shape Alberto this year when every time Contador originally intended to respond.

These two: Rasmussen & Landa.

Not Schleck, not Ricco, not Froome. At least for me personally!

And this endless Froome versus Contador. Contador versus Froome chat has become annoying long time ago. But to be fair: Flo actually is one of the few fangirls or boys that sometimes is able to give credits to other riders in a chilled moment. Even to Froome as pointed out before. So it's a bit harsh from my pov to majorely point out at her.

So basically what you are saying, before even a season started, is that if Froome beats Contador then Contador wasn't in best shape, yet if Contador beats Froome then it means he simply is better?

Chris just can't win either way, can he

Arguments like that is exactly why majority of Contador fans (those who use arguments like that) are considered as mentally unstable people living in lala land who refuse to acknowledge anyone or any facts which disagree with their fantasy.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Froome and Contador ain't been facing each other on equal levels except maybe the Vuelta last year, which still was more of an in race training session for Froome, and Andalucia this year, which still was a preparation race. 2013 ain't no reference to me as Contador's shape ain't been representative for his quality all year long. Something which Flo even disagrees with as she gives that year in favor of Froome.

I also doubt that they gonna face each other on equal terms anytime soon. Unless Contador beats Froome at next years Tour. Because if not, it arguably was his last season, he ain't been the same class as during his prime etc. That would all be legit arguments next year.

So all this “Froome is the biggest opponent of my/his career“ talk is pure nonsense to me. They never faced each other and probably ain't been going to do so ever.

Contador's strongest opponent is the only one who would've beaten him in peak-shape. Maybe, maybe Landa as he really dropped a peak-shape Alberto this year when every time Contador originally intended to respond.

These two: Rasmussen & Landa.

Not Schleck, not Ricco, not Froome. At least for me personally!

And this endless Froome versus Contador. Contador versus Froome chat has become annoying long time ago. But to be fair: Flo actually is one of the few fangirls or boys that sometimes is able to give credits to other riders in a chilled moment. Even to Froome as pointed out before. So it's a bit harsh from my pov to majorely point out at her.

So basically what you are saying, before even a season started, is that if Froome beats Contador then Contador wasn't in best shape, yet if Contador beats Froome then it means he simply is better?

Chris just can't win either way, can he

Arguments like that is exactly why majority of Contador fans (those who use arguments like that) are considered as mentally unstable people living in lala land who refuse to acknowledge anyone or any facts which disagree with their fantasy.

If Contador has a pre Tour season like 2014 and then gets beat by Froome, I'll say he lost fair and square. It's a 100 percent undisputed fact. In 2013 AC wasn't at his best. In 2015 he had ridden the Giro. This doesn't take away from Froome's wins at all. He of course beat AC. Another thing I think most can agree on - in 2014 both seemed to be on their A game...we all missed out on what probably would have been an AMAZING show. I'm really hoping for a repeat of 2014 without them both crashing.

 

[Irondan]

I just deleted a pile of posts that were off topic and all related to making 'trolling' accusations.

Anyone that makes 'trolling' accusations is posting off topic/derailing this thread will be subject to action by moderators.

If someone is trolling, report them. It's that simple.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

...saying that Bertie was in top form in 2013.
Next you will be saying that Wiggo was the best tour winner ever.
I have said countless times that I rate Froome.
I don't think we will get the race we want . I think last years vuelta and the dauphine is probally as good as it will get.

i'm just all for the discussion without excuses.

wiggins deserved his tour. i'm convinced with those parcours and froome as a domestique de luxe at hand, he would've won that race even if contador had taken part.

I have to say that IMO is crazy. A top form Bertie would have put minutes into Wiggo. Nibs destroyed him at the Giro. Wiggins is at best a 2nd rate climber. Remember when Bertie was at disco and won the tour? He was light years ahead of Wiggins and Armstrong.
Froome could have won that tour if he had the b%%%s . It was like a training ride for him [ froome] that's why Wiggo had a minor breakdown when Froome rode away from him. It was the most gifted tour win ever.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

Alberto says Froome is the biggest challenge of his entire career. I believe him, and I think that says it all. Froome is a force to be reckoned with since he suddenly became world class in 2011. In that time he has won 2 GTs and shows no signs of slowing down. He seems susceptible to illness and injury but when he is on form he is formidable. Since he 'emerged' late his career will most likely fall shy of legend status, but I'd never count the guy out of any race he enters.

Thing is, if hypothetically Froome was to win 5 Tours, would you consider him as a legend? He'd definitely be memorable, and given that those 5 Tours would be during the time of AC, he would definitely be up there. But come on, the guy needs to show something in the classics too imo, or he needs to win at least 1 edition of each GT and end up with at least 7 GTs. Even AC wouldn't qualify for legendary status (I count 7, not 9) if some of those GT wins weren't quite so memorable, though I guess he has done the GT triple twice over

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Alberto says Froome is the biggest challenge of his entire career. I believe him, and I think that says it all. Froome is a force to be reckoned with since he suddenly became world class in 2011. In that time he has won 2 GTs and shows no signs of slowing down. He seems susceptible to illness and injury but when he is on form he is formidable. Since he 'emerged' late his career will most likely fall shy of legend status, but I'd never count the guy out of any race he enters.

Thing is, if hypothetically Froome was to win 5 Tours, would you consider him as a legend? He'd definitely be memorable, and given that those 5 Tours would be during the time of AC, he would definitely be up there. But come on, the guy needs to show something in the classics too imo, or he needs to win at least 1 edition of each GT and end up with at least 7 GTs. Even AC wouldn't qualify for legendary status (I count 7, not 9) if some of those GT wins weren't quite so memorable, though I guess he has done the GT triple twice over

Froome won't win 5 Tours, and certainly won't win any classic, so legend status is out of the question

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

Alberto says Froome is the biggest challenge of his entire career. I believe him, and I think that says it all. Froome is a force to be reckoned with since he suddenly became world class in 2011. In that time he has won 2 GTs and shows no signs of slowing down. He seems susceptible to illness and injury but when he is on form he is formidable. Since he 'emerged' late his career will most likely fall shy of legend status, but I'd never count the guy out of any race he enters.

Thing is, if hypothetically Froome was to win 5 Tours, would you consider him as a legend? He'd definitely be memorable, and given that those 5 Tours would be during the time of AC, he would definitely be up there. But come on, the guy needs to show something in the classics too imo, or he needs to win at least 1 edition of each GT and end up with at least 7 GTs. Even AC wouldn't qualify for legendary status (I count 7, not 9) if some of those GT wins weren't quite so memorable, though I guess he has done the GT triple twice over

Let's talk about it when he wins 5 Tours .

I'm very stingy with the Legend title, last one I've seen was Pantani and before him Hinault. History will decide on Contador, not us.