Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[Pricey_sky]

I have a feeling Astana will join Sky in making the pace as hard as possible for Alberto who's weakness will be Giro fatigue. This should play into Froomes hands more often than not as that is the type of race he enjoys. There seemed to be no love lost between Astana and Contador at the Giro so I expect that to continue.

If the first week is wet then Froome may struggle in those hilly and cobbled stages, if it's raining in the mountains that's fine, he's proved he can perform in those conditions.

 

[Netserk]

Yeah Astana will make the pace hard, but not on the mtfs, Nibali has more to gain from using his team elsewhere.

 

[bala v]

Re:

Highly debatable that Quintana is a good racer tbh. He's vulnerable as well.

He's ok, remember Stelvio

 

[Metabolol]

Re:

Yeah Astana will make the pace hard, but not on the mtfs, Nibali has more to gain from using his team elsewhere.

True but there might be temporary alliances if they can sense weakness in Contador or Quintana. But overall, yes I think Astana wants to make the race brutal but a steady hard pace on final climbs is most likely going to benefit Froome the most. Too bad Astana doesn't have Landa, it would have given them even more tactical options.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re: Re:

Didn't he crash in the wet a few kilometers before the cobbles last year? Yes he crashed the day before in the dry too.

Yep he did - I guess my point was that it was the crash the day before that did the damage. The crash in the wet is being used by some people as evidence that he can't do wet weather, but we have no way of knowing that a) he would have crashed and b) it would have put him out of the race if he didn't have a fractured wrist from the day before.

Obviously Nibali is way ahead of him as a bike handler, but I can't remember Froome having the kind of shocker Wiggins had in the 2013 Giro, or, say, Pinot had when he got the descending yips 2 years ago. In 2013 Tirreno–Adriatico stage 6 Froome didn't do anything particularly wrong and finished in the main group - it was just that Nibali (and Sagan) were very very good. Similarly in this year's Dauphiné stage 6 he didn't do anything particularly appalling - he just sat in a peleton that got shredded and lost time to a breakaway. It was probably sensible considering how the breakaway members suffered the next day.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

Froome can only win if everything goes right for him (no rain,no racing before the final 5km on the final MTF, no racing on the cobbles, no crosswinds). I think Froome is least likely to win out of the big 4. Winning a GT is not just about sheer climbing force. You need to be a good racer and Nibali, Contador and also Quintana are good racers. Froome not. He's tactically incompetent and goes into meltdown once the real racing starts.

it is not going to rain in all the days in France. That is similar for Nairo or Valverde.

it is not a a question of skills, that too, but of phisiology

If there is no rain no options for Nibali as well.

But I dont agree about no racing before the final 5 Km... that would be for him, but would be a problem for Contador.

Froome is not good in that becouse they focus all in a few variables, and they are no good at tactics, but phisiologicaly he is better than Contador in 2 maximum afforts in the same stage.

And I am not sure he is not a good racer, he had very complicated to win Dauphiné after the TT, becouse TVG was very strong...but he managed to do it..so that is a point for him.. there was a dangerous breakaway with Nibali, Valverde, Rui costa, but he did what he had to do with that breakaway if we see in perspective, he looks as if he know his real rival was just TVG.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Re:

Froome can only win if everything goes right for him (no rain,no racing before the final 5km on the final MTF, no racing on the cobbles, no crosswinds). I think Froome is least likely to win out of the big 4. Winning a GT is not just about sheer climbing force. You need to be a good racer and Nibali, Contador and also Quintana are good racers. Froome not. He's tactically incompetent and goes into meltdown once the real racing starts.

You think "real racing" is not riding up hill? only drilling it when some shicks a chain or crashes is real racing? only going full gas on a sprint stage to muscle for position with the sprint teams causing umpteen crashes per year is real racing? disgusting. This year there are so many MTFs in the tour its especially laughable what you consider real racing. It will be a sweet sweet tour because not even a bluejeans bootlegging billionaire will be able to buy a good result it will go to the best climber.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Froome can only win if everything goes right for him (no rain,no racing before the final 5km on the final MTF, no racing on the cobbles, no crosswinds). I think Froome is least likely to win out of the big 4. Winning a GT is not just about sheer climbing force. You need to be a good racer and Nibali, Contador and also Quintana are good racers. Froome not. He's tactically incompetent and goes into meltdown once the real racing starts.

You think "real racing" is not riding up hill? only drilling it when some shicks a chain or crashes is real racing? only going full gas on a sprint stage to muscle for position with the sprint teams causing umpteen crashes per year is real racing? disgusting. This year there are so many MTFs in the tour its especially laughable what you consider real racing. It will be a sweet sweet tour because not even a bluejeans bootlegging billionaire will be able to buy a good result it will go to the best climber.

Wow, bravo, you just put words in my mouth and then called me/those word disgusting. Making yourself look like a big arsehole

 

[buchanan]

Re: Re:

Froome can only win if everything goes right for him (no rain,no racing before the final 5km on the final MTF, no racing on the cobbles, no crosswinds). I think Froome is least likely to win out of the big 4. Winning a GT is not just about sheer climbing force. You need to be a good racer and Nibali, Contador and also Quintana are good racers. Froome not. He's tactically incompetent and goes into meltdown once the real racing starts.

Funny how Froome's non racing ability has won him a Tour and three podiums. Stick to the Contador thread where the one note hysteria is more predictable. He is the best TT rider of the four, a strong climber and has a strong team.

Where did I state otherwise?

You assert that Froome can only win if everything goes right for him. And then give examples of what conditions Froome can't win in (to your mind). We might as well say that Contador can't ride cobbles since he lost 3 minutes to Nibali on last year's Tour cobbles. We might as well say Contador can't handle his bike properly, or in the rain, because he crashed out of the Tour on a wet descent in the Vosges (and lost all that time on the wet cobbles a few days before). And Froome can't ride crosswinds either apparently? Do you base that on the fact Saxo-Tinkoff took some time back on him with that attack in crosswinds in the 2103 Tour? So now he cannot handle a race if there are crosswinds, even though he comfortably won that same 2013 Tour by a big margin? I must say you really grasp at straws with the conclusions you come to...

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Froome can only win if everything goes right for him (no rain,no racing before the final 5km on the final MTF, no racing on the cobbles, no crosswinds). I think Froome is least likely to win out of the big 4. Winning a GT is not just about sheer climbing force. You need to be a good racer and Nibali, Contador and also Quintana are good racers. Froome not. He's tactically incompetent and goes into meltdown once the real racing starts.

Funny how Froome's non racing ability has won him a Tour and three podiums. Stick to the Contador thread where the one note hysteria is more predictable. He is the best TT rider of the four, a strong climber and has a strong team.

Where did I state otherwise?

You assert that Froome can only win if everything goes right for him. And then give examples of what conditions Froome can't win in (to your mind). We might as well say that Contador can't ride cobbles since he lost 3 minutes to Nibali on last year's Tour cobbles. We might as well say Contador can't handle his bike properly, or in the rain, because he crashed out of the Tour on a wet descent in the Vosges (and lost all that time on the wet cobbles a few days before). And Froome can't ride crosswinds either apparently? Do you base that on the fact Saxo-Tinkoff took some time back on him with that attack in crosswinds in the 2103 Tour? So now he cannot handle a race if there are crosswinds, even though he comfortably won that same 2013 Tour by a big margin? I must say you really grasp at straws with the conclusions you come to...

It's pretty well known that Froome doesn't do as well when the racing is hard early in the race. Stage 6 of this years Dauphine is a perfect example. What happened that day was too unorthodox for him and his team to manage. That's a recent example. And yes it has happened enough for us to say that in general he prefers those days where his team can just ride tempo and let him ride away with 3-5 K to go.

 

[buchanan]

Re: Re:

Froome can only win if everything goes right for him (no rain,no racing before the final 5km on the final MTF, no racing on the cobbles, no crosswinds). I think Froome is least likely to win out of the big 4. Winning a GT is not just about sheer climbing force. You need to be a good racer and Nibali, Contador and also Quintana are good racers. Froome not. He's tactically incompetent and goes into meltdown once the real racing starts.

Funny how Froome's non racing ability has won him a Tour and three podiums. Stick to the Contador thread where the one note hysteria is more predictable. He is the best TT rider of the four, a strong climber and has a strong team.

Where did I state otherwise?

You assert that Froome can only win if everything goes right for him. And then give examples of what conditions Froome can't win in (to your mind). We might as well say that Contador can't ride cobbles since he lost 3 minutes to Nibali on last year's Tour cobbles. We might as well say Contador can't handle his bike properly, or in the rain, because he crashed out of the Tour on a wet descent in the Vosges (and lost all that time on the wet cobbles a few days before). And Froome can't ride crosswinds either apparently? Do you base that on the fact Saxo-Tinkoff took some time back on him with that attack in crosswinds in the 2103 Tour? So now he cannot handle a race if there are crosswinds, even though he comfortably won that same 2013 Tour by a big margin? I must say you really grasp at straws with the conclusions you come to...

It's pretty well known that Froome doesn't do as well when the racing is hard early in the race. Stage 6 of this years Dauphine is a perfect example. What happened that day was too unorthodox for him and his team to manage. That's a recent example. And yes it has happened enough for us to say that in general he prefers those days where his team can just ride tempo and let him ride away with 3-5 K to go.

Yet he still won the Dauphine, stage 6 and all...

 

[LaFlorecita]

Yes, but that doesn't mean it isn't one of his weaknesses

 

[dacooley]

evidently 'real racing' ends when froome starts winning.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Funny how Froome's non racing ability has won him a Tour and three podiums. Stick to the Contador thread where the one note hysteria is more predictable. He is the best TT rider of the four, a strong climber and has a strong team.

Where did I state otherwise?

You assert that Froome can only win if everything goes right for him. And then give examples of what conditions Froome can't win in (to your mind). We might as well say that Contador can't ride cobbles since he lost 3 minutes to Nibali on last year's Tour cobbles. We might as well say Contador can't handle his bike properly, or in the rain, because he crashed out of the Tour on a wet descent in the Vosges (and lost all that time on the wet cobbles a few days before). And Froome can't ride crosswinds either apparently? Do you base that on the fact Saxo-Tinkoff took some time back on him with that attack in crosswinds in the 2103 Tour? So now he cannot handle a race if there are crosswinds, even though he comfortably won that same 2013 Tour by a big margin? I must say you really grasp at straws with the conclusions you come to...

It's pretty well known that Froome doesn't do as well when the racing is hard early in the race. Stage 6 of this years Dauphine is a perfect example. What happened that day was too unorthodox for him and his team to manage. That's a recent example. And yes it has happened enough for us to say that in general he prefers those days where his team can just ride tempo and let him ride away with 3-5 K to go.

Yet he still won the Dauphine, stage 6 and all...

Add to that AC, Quintana, Nibbes in form, 3 weeks of racing, ect. Can Froome win the Tour? Yes of course. I'm not saying he can't. I'm naming one of his big weaknesses and saying that he'll have a hard time winning and will need more "luck" than the other big riders....imo.

 

[damian13ster]

He is the strongest cycling with really good team. Others will need luck (right weather, crashes, chaos) to win against him

 

[tweak37]

People exaggerate Froome's tactical "incompetence" here a bit I think. He goes into meltdown once the real racing starts? When has something like this actually happened? Take the stage that Costa won last week: given the weather, Froome's weak team and the fact that he was simply not that strong, I don't think his tactics were that terrible? He did not panic and tried to profit from the work of BMC and TJVG in particular. Nothing special but pretty much by the book, no?
I remember a difficult stage in the tour 2013 when he was isolated early on (the day that Porte collapsed), he survived that pretty well. His failures (Tirreno 2013, Dauphine 2014, Vuelta 2014) generally had nothing to do with tactical errors. Granted, when he is not the strongest like in last year's vuelta, he does not seem to have the tactical aptitude to make up for that, but that's hardly the same as "going into meltdown once the real racing starts".
So feel free to correct me if I'm forgetting some evidence to the contrary, but Froome tactical abilities seem quite alright to me.

 

[Jspear]

Re:

He is the strongest cycling with really good team. Others will need luck (right weather, crashes, chaos) to win against him

Chaos will be easy to come by. Astana will provide more than enough of that.

 

[damian13ster]

Re: Re:

He is the strongest cycling with really good team. Others will need luck (right weather, crashes, chaos) to win against him

Chaos will be easy to come by. Astana will provide more than enough of that.

Seriously doubt that unless Fuglsang is ridiculously strong and they decide to have a 2nd option instead of going in with Nibali or nothing mentality like they did with Aru. But Astana will make things easier by driving the pace early and eliminating attacks. All that playing into Sky's hands since then they can up the tempo on the MTF even further

 

[djpbaltimore]

I don't think there is any logic to the assertion that Froome needs more 'luck' than any of the three other favorites. He probably has the best combination of climbing and TT'ing of the four and is surrounded by a well-rounded, deep team dedicated to racing to his strengths. He is not infallible, but if the 2015 TDF was raced 100 times, I think he would win the most times. To me, that means that the other three need more 'luck' to break their way than Froome. It seems like people are already trying to discredit his victory before it even happens. (I.e. Contador was fatigued, the weather was sunny, his rivals used bad tactics, etc)

Other than anecdotal evidence, is there any real empirical data that Froome falls more often than his rivals? Look at how often Contador has been on the tarmac during GTs in his career. There is definitely a danger of small sample bias in many of these posts.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

He is the strongest cycling with really good team. Others will need luck (right weather, crashes, chaos) to win against him

Chaos will be easy to come by. Astana will provide more than enough of that.

Seriously doubt that unless Fuglsang is ridiculously strong and they decide to have a 2nd option instead of going in with Nibali or nothing mentality like they did with Aru. But Astana will make things easier by driving the pace early and eliminating attacks. All that playing into Sky's hands since then they can up the tempo on the MTF even further

Fuglsang will be strong...haven't you heard? He has relearned how to breathe.
I wasn't referring to them pacing on the typical mountain stages. I was talking about the places where you "usually" wouldn't attack. I expect Nibbes and his team to try and find weakness in all the gc guys this way.

 

[damian13ster]

Unless Nibali is weak I don't think he will attack in unexpected places (of course putting a high pace on cobbles is expected). It is a high risk strategy which you do not need if you are as strong as in 2014
And I believe that Fuglsang will be strong but he needs a green light. Landa was insanely strong but he wasn't given one so they didn't take advantage of it

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

People exaggerate Froome's tactical "incompetence" here a bit I think. He goes into meltdown once the real racing starts? When has something like this actually happened? Take the stage that Costa won last week: given the weather, Froome's weak team and the fact that he was simply not that strong, I don't think his tactics were that terrible? He did not panic and tried to profit from the work of BMC and TJVG in particular. Nothing special but pretty much by the book, no?
I remember a difficult stage in the tour 2013 when he was isolated early on (the day that Porte collapsed), he survived that pretty well. His failures (Tirreno 2013, Dauphine 2014, Vuelta 2014) generally had nothing to do with tactical errors. Granted, when he is not the strongest like in last year's vuelta, he does not seem to have the tactical aptitude to make up for that, but that's hardly the same as "going into meltdown once the real racing starts".
So feel free to correct me if I'm forgetting some evidence to the contrary, but Froome tactical abilities seem quite alright to me.

Great post. +1

 

[damian13ster]

Re: Re:

People exaggerate Froome's tactical "incompetence" here a bit I think. He goes into meltdown once the real racing starts? When has something like this actually happened? Take the stage that Costa won last week: given the weather, Froome's weak team and the fact that he was simply not that strong, I don't think his tactics were that terrible? He did not panic and tried to profit from the work of BMC and TJVG in particular. Nothing special but pretty much by the book, no?
I remember a difficult stage in the tour 2013 when he was isolated early on (the day that Porte collapsed), he survived that pretty well. His failures (Tirreno 2013, Dauphine 2014, Vuelta 2014) generally had nothing to do with tactical errors. Granted, when he is not the strongest like in last year's vuelta, he does not seem to have the tactical aptitude to make up for that, but that's hardly the same as "going into meltdown once the real racing starts".
So feel free to correct me if I'm forgetting some evidence to the contrary, but Froome tactical abilities seem quite alright to me.

Great post. +1

+2. It seems like people are grasping at straws because they know that Froome in top shape is by far the strongest

 

[Jspear]

Re:

I don't think there is any logic to the assertion that Froome needs more 'luck' than any of the three other favorites. He probably has the best combination of climbing and TT'ing of the four and is surrounded by a well-rounded, deep team dedicated to racing to his strengths. He is not infallible, but if the 2015 TDF was raced 100 times, I think he would win the most times. To me, that means that the other three need more 'luck' to break their way than Froome. It seems like people are already trying to discredit his victory before it even happens. (I.e. Contador was fatigued, the weather was sunny, his rivals used bad tactics, etc)

Other than anecdotal evidence, is there any real empirical data that Froome falls more often than his rivals? Look at how often Contador has been on the tarmac during GTs in his career. There is definitely a danger of small sample bias in many of these posts.

Froome has only won 1 gt. AC and Nibbes have both won 2 gt's since 2013. Statistically I don't see how you can say "racing the 2015 Tour 100 times, he would win the most." I think Nibbes or AC would. Anyways that's just us presenting our opinions. What I mean when I say he needs more luck is; he needs more to go right for him to win. The others can win under a more varied set of obstacles. I'm not trying to discredit his win before it happens. I don't even know if he will win so I can't discredit it...he hasn't done anything. This is just the usual speculation that we all do before a gt happens.

And oh, I don't include talk of crashes when I say Froome needs more luck to win. I think all GC riders are equally in danger of crashing. Yes some riders have better bike handling skills, but crashing can often happen regardless of how good you are at riding a bike.

 

[Jspear]

Re:

People exaggerate Froome's tactical "incompetence" here a bit I think. He goes into meltdown once the real racing starts? When has something like this actually happened? Take the stage that Costa won last week: given the weather, Froome's weak team and the fact that he was simply not that strong, I don't think his tactics were that terrible? He did not panic and tried to profit from the work of BMC and TJVG in particular. Nothing special but pretty much by the book, no?
I remember a difficult stage in the tour 2013 when he was isolated early on (the day that Porte collapsed), he survived that pretty well. His failures (Tirreno 2013, Dauphine 2014, Vuelta 2014) generally had nothing to do with tactical errors. Granted, when he is not the strongest like in last year's vuelta, he does not seem to have the tactical aptitude to make up for that, but that's hardly the same as "going into meltdown once the real racing starts".
So feel free to correct me if I'm forgetting some evidence to the contrary, but Froome tactical abilities seem quite alright to me.

I don't think I've ever said he goes into a melt down. I just don't think he handles those situations very well and loses time because of it.