"Chris Froome unhappy to be on disc brakes"

[The GCW]

Re:
"Chris Froome unhappy to be on disc brakes"
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froome-unhappy-to-be-on-disc-brakes/

Something I don't care for is seeing limited choices in purchasing a new lightweight bike for climbing in mountains, that do not have disc brakes.

One example: Bianchi’s Specialissima, will only be available with disc attachment.
I've never needed disc brakes on road bike, however, I always need the bike to be light.
Disc's are a pain in the butt on mountain bike, however, there's better reason to use them with MTN bike.
Working on rim brakes is much easier / many more people need to take bike with disc's to a mechanic... -and then after the mechanic does His thing, they often are still problematic.

When pro racers are given a choice, I believe I understand majority want rim brakes.

One example for need is: For someone with poor finger strength, disc's may allow a rider to continue through the years.

 

[Black Betsy]

Man, I bought 2 trek domane alu 2 (rim brakes) for that reason! Stocking for a dystopic future with no "entry" level bikes with rim brakes (and of course 1000+ the tag price).

 

[Cookster15]

Froome said what needed to be said. Good on him. I agree with all your points. But the Industry decided they don't care. New makes more money. Manufacturing volumes and economics meant it was better for the industry to stop supporting rim setups. Having a new road bike became synonymous with discs, not rim brakes.

I also agree with your last sentence. I know some old guys with arthritis who liked discs because it took less finger effort to brake hard.

Note to industry: I am not going to get my race bike "upgraded" to discs because I don't need or want them, you will just need to wait until I am ready for a new bike. All other beneficial technological changes I have rushed to buy.

 

[Unchained]

So as most of us can't push any bike to it's limits,as most of us could save many grams around the dining room table,rather than by purchasing exotic parts made of titanium and carbon fiber..Froome is very very obviously different than a regular person. He has experience at an elite level that few can rival. I am guessing, but my guess is that he can or has ridden any bike he wants,w whatever component combinations,w cost and complicated set up or maintenance tossed aside.
It's absolutely flabbergasting that pro riders can't get what they want. In my experience, this scenario is turned upside down, most hobbyists can't get the elite prototypes, there are parts and setups pro engineers and mechanics provide to professionals that are unavailable to the general paying public. The idea that Froome would have to ride my bike when he doesn't want to, is terrible..what's next?
If Formula One started racing station wagons or minivans..who is lusting after that equipment? Nobody. If Cycling News walks through the pits taking awesome pictures and videos of pro bikes, who is going to view the photos if the pros don't have anything different than you see at a club ride?
Pro bikes should be number one,form fit and function of the fastest bicycle racing in the world. If one of the fastest bike racers in the world,w the victories to prove it says discs are not part of his plan, these money grubbing manufacturers better listen, Froome is not the only one who wants the best within the pro ranks..
The general public benefits from elite racing experience, pros don't benefit from racing inferior bikes

 

[King Boonen]

So as most of us can't push any bike to it's limits,as most of us could save many grams around the dining room table,rather than by purchasing exotic parts made of titanium and carbon fiber..Froome is very very obviously different than a regular person. He has experience at an elite level that few can rival. I am guessing, but my guess is that he can or has ridden any bike he wants,w whatever component combinations,w cost and complicated set up or maintenance tossed aside.
It's absolutely flabbergasting that pro riders can't get what they want. In my experience, this scenario is turned upside down, most hobbyists can't get the elite prototypes, there are parts and setups pro engineers and mechanics provide to professionals that are unavailable to the general paying public. The idea that Froome would have to ride my bike when he doesn't want to, is terrible..what's next?
If Formula One started racing station wagons or minivans..who is lusting after that equipment? Nobody. If Cycling News walks through the pits taking awesome pictures and videos of pro bikes, who is going to view the photos if the pros don't have anything different than you see at a club ride?
Pro bikes should be number one,form fit and function of the fastest bicycle racing in the world. If one of the fastest bike racers in the world,w the victories to prove it says discs are not part of his plan, these money grubbing manufacturers better listen, Froome is not the only one who wants the best within the pro ranks..
The general public benefits from elite racing experience, pros don't benefit from racing inferior bikes

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here but Pros get what their sponsors provide/teams are allowed to use, just like Formula One. I'm sure Verstappen, Perez, Ricciardo et. al. would love to have the Mercedes car at their disposal but they don't.

As for prototypes etc. pros get these all the time. We're constantly seeing prototype frames, tyres, wheels, groupsets etc. but the UCI rules stipulate that any prototypes have to be made available to the public within a certain time-frame. There's a famous case of the GB track team playing to the letter of the law with their in-house developed bikes and making the conditions for buying one absurd.

There are reasons behind these rules. Imposing limits on what teams can and can't do with bikes stops technology taking over the sport and, supposedly, makes it accessible to anyone, as the winner is still determined by the riders, not the bike they are riding. There are problems with this, as anyone who has turned up at a local TT will know, but the aim is reasonable. This doesn't apply to F1 where it's about the driver and the car. The aim in cycling is to level the playing field as much as possible in terms of equipment.

If Froome felt strongly enough about disc brakes that he didn't want to race on them, he should have made sure that the team he was going to would provide him with a rim brake bike. Maybe they will now, or maybe he'll just have to deal with it. Reading his comments it doesn't sound like he really cares that much. Cancellara managed to remain on mechanical gears his whole career from what I remember and Emma Johansson was allowed to ride Shimano on a Campagnolo sponsored team, so good riders have enough clout if they really care. Essentially, pros can, and do, get what they want.

There's also the fact that bikes are being sold to customers and F1 cars aren't etc. that influences manufacturers, but that's probably its own discussion.

 

[samhocking]

ISN are not a Shimano-sponsored team. They're buying their Shimano independently like plenty of other teams do too. There's only normally around 8-10 teams actually Shimano sponsored. ISN are not one of them. The fact they use CeramicSpeed jockey wheels and cages, Swisstop brakes etc means the team isn't obligated to Shimano disc system anyway. Factor make rim-braked models anyway. I'd expect ISN to be in rim-braked bike for Tour anyway.

 

[Cookster15]

Froome doesn't care that much but he still prefers rim brakes for their reliability and dependability. It was only a matter of time before a pro said what needed to be said. Of all the technological changes over the years discs are the least beneficial when viewed from what actually makes you faster. Plus remember discs weigh more. To meet the UCI limit now costs significantly more money to offset that heft. Add in aero frames and the cash penalty adds up.

Froome also added one or two points I didn't realize - like the overheating and warping on long descents - ouch! Of course for some discs are undoubtedly better. But for pros not so much. The problem is the lack of choice on new bikes for those who don't want or need discs. Too bad says the industry we decide.

 

[carolina]

The use of discs will enable the wheels to become better.

 

[King Boonen]

Froome doesn't care that much but he still prefers rim brakes for their reliability and dependability. It was only a matter of time before a pro said what needed to be said. Of all the technological changes over the years discs are the least beneficial when viewed from what actually makes you faster. Plus remember discs weigh more. To meet the UCI limit now costs significantly more money to offset that heft. Add in aero frames and the cash penalty adds up.

Froome also added one or two points I didn't realize - like the overheating and warping on long descents - ouch! Of course for some discs are undoubtedly better. But for pros not so much. The problem is the lack of choice on new bikes for those who don't want or need discs. Too bad says the industry we decide.

The Initial SRAM discs warped, because... well... Sram, but if he can get down a mountain without delaminating a carbon wheel he’ll be fine on discs.

I agree that discs don’t really seem to be needed for pros, although in a wet PR or mountain GT stage they might be useful, but I also think they don’t make much difference in a negative way for pros.

my new bike was rim, if you ride steel you’ll always have the choice.

 

[jmdirt]

IMO, if CF/ISN used full Shimano systems CF would not have performance concerns. I'm not talking about weight or aero factors, just braking performance. Rubbing an warping, something is wrong with their set-up. Buy full Shimano set up CF and see what you think. I don't want to get into the hole (used that on purpose) debate because I know that calipers work just fine, especially on the road.

On my first disc brake dirt rig I tried to save weight by using Stan's rotors. The brakes were so-so, and I kept thinking "these are just barely better than my old V-brakes". After truing the rotors after every ride, I tossed some Shimano XT rotors on and wow disc brakes are great! This was 15 (?) years ago and Shimano has gotten even better since.

I don't understand the "pain in the butt" comments, because adjustment is super easy, and bleeding isn't very hard either. Now, I did have a front caliper one time that had a problematic piston that made adjustment difficult and too frequent. Lucky for me the piston cracked and Shimano sent me a new Caliper (obviously it had a manufacturing defect that eventually caught up to it).

 

[red_flanders]

Well, as loathe as I am to agree with anything Froome says, he's not wrong. I blow through rotors on my mountain bike way too often, overheating and warping them. It's a pretty different environment, I doubt Froome is going down a 35% slope with 230 lbs of man and bike to stop, but the point is relevant. Good of him to push the manufacturers on this.

 

[The GCW]

Atributes of a road bike (compared to MTN bike) include how everything is out in the open making it easy to maintain. -A rider with some basic skills can adjust mechanical derailleurs and mechanical brakes easily.

Many people I ride with who have electric derailleurs and disc brakes are more likely to have to hand their bike over to a mechanic, who We (often) know and agrees they are more of a problem. When adjusted their good but once they lose some adjustment things get more complicated.

Road bikes and MTN bikes of course are not interchangeable... Another comparison is shocks. Forget the average person overhauling shocks.

 

[jmdirt]

Atributes of a road bike (compared to MTN bike) include how everything is out in the open making it easy to maintain. -A rider with some basic skills can adjust mechanical derailleurs and mechanical brakes easily.

Many people I ride with who have electric derailleurs and disc brakes are more likely to have to hand their bike over to a mechanic, who We (often) know and agrees they are more of a problem. When adjusted their good but once they lose some adjustment things get more complicated.

Road bikes and MTN bikes of course are not interchangeable... Another comparison is shocks. Forget the average person overhauling shocks.

Suspension components are really pretty simple, but the real issue is that the tools required to work on them changes too frequently. Fox has been a little more consistent recently. I can pay my LBS $150 to rebuild my fork & shock or buy the $100+ tool, seals, oil, etc. (on top of the other tools I've purchased in past years). Easy choice for me.

 

[jmdirt]

Well, as loathe as I am to agree with anything Froome says, he's not wrong. I blow through rotors on my mountain bike way too often, overheating and warping them. It's a pretty different environment, I doubt Froome is going down a 35% slope with 230 lbs of man and bike to stop, but the point is relevant. Good of him to push the manufacturers on this.

What do you mean by "blew through rotors"? Or is the overheating/warping what you men? I'm only 150 lbs so I'm not a good comparison, but my main riding buddy is 210 and he doesn't have this issue*. Organic pads, yeh I go through those monthly, but that's my choice because if I used metallic I could probably get 3 months.

*Note: I ride Shimano, but he rides SRAM.

EDIT: I want to be clear here that I don't think that other people should prefer what I do...ride what makes you happy!

 

[red_flanders]

What do you mean by "blew through rotors"? Or is the overheating/warping what you men? I'm only 150 lbs so I'm not a good comparison, but my main riding buddy is 210 and he doesn't have this issue*. Organic pads, yeh I go through those monthly, but that's my choice because if I used metallic I could probably get 3 months.

*Note: I ride Shimano, but he rides SRAM.

EDIT: I want to be clear here that I don't think that other people should prefer what I do...ride what makes you happy!

Glaze them, warp them, otherwise render them dramatically less useful. Weight isn’t the only factor, it’s what you’re sending that weight down. Maybe, I have no idea, I’m riding steeler longer pitches. Maybe I don’t modulate my braking perfectly.

Maybe I just see going through rotors every 3 months as blowing through them. Seems like whatever the number I’m going through it’s more than I’d have expected. I did talk to a cat in my LBS who recommended some thicker rotors for me.

 

[jmdirt]

Glaze them, warp them, otherwise render them dramatically less useful. Weight isn’t the only factor, it’s what you’re sending that weight down. Maybe, I have no idea, I’m riding steeler longer pitches. Maybe I don’t modulate my braking perfectly.

Maybe I just see going through rotors every 3 months as blowing through them. Seems like whatever the number I’m going through it’s more than I’d have expected. I did talk to a cat in my LBS who recommended some thicker rotors for me.

Well Boise certainly isn't even close to being the downhill capitol of the world, but I get about 1,000 hours of riding from a set of discs and really no issues until then. Even when I used to sprinkle in some Sun Valley riding (much longer descents) it didn't change my brakes noticeably.

Like I've discussed in the dirt thread, I come from a moto background, raced DH and XC for many years so I would say that I can get down a hill pretty well. Maybe I'm just lucky with brakes?

 

[King Boonen]

...

I don't understand the "pain in the butt" comments, because adjustment is super easy, and bleeding isn't very hard either. Now, I did have a front caliper one time that had a problematic piston that made adjustment difficult and too frequent. Lucky for me the piston cracked and Shimano sent me a new Caliper (obviously it had a manufacturing defect that eventually caught up to it).

On this bit, I know a lot of cyclists and I would say over 50% of them don't do anything other than clean their bikes (some rarely seem to do that). Anything that needs doing, the bike goes to the shop. This pretty much negates any set-up and maintenance issues and I think people who do their own work are likely capable. Yes, it's more of a faff and means having mineral oil/dot fluids around, which is a bit of a pain for those of us who live and work on our bikes in flats/indoors/not in a garage/garden, but cyclists seem to have accepted internal cables and stupid routing for pointless aero gains, so the resistance to more consistent braking seems a little contrived.

All that said, my bikes are 10-speed mechanical/or 1 speed, run rims brakes, all the cables are outside the frame and none of that will be changing any time soon. I even run rim brakes on my gravel bike (TRP long reach calipers will clear 40mm tyres up front).

 

[Cookster15]

Well I've been quick to upgrade to many of the technological advancements over the years - but I am not rushing out to "upgrade" to discs.

Reading what Froome said just makes me happy my gut feel about them was right. I am one of those King Boonan says don't do anything other than clean their bikes. Any mechanical adjustments or regular servicing I pay someone at the local shop.

But I rarely have any problems with my rim brakes rubbing. Plus I'm not a pro, don't commute, have no problems modulating under hard braking and am not constantly hard braking and have a smart trainer to use when its wet. My club cancels racing when its wet. So I don't need to ride in the rain which is the only circumstance where I suspect discs have a definite advantage.

Sorry Mr Industry but you will just have to wait until my current bike is due for replacement in a few more years. Hopefully by then you have sorted all these problems I don't need.

 

[carolina]

I'm very bad with mechanics, I can't even setup the shifting properly. However, I have disc brakes and I have no problems with changing the brake pads and avoid rubbing. It's not a problema at all. The more complicated stuff rarely or never happens.

Most people that complain have zero experience with disc brakes on road bikes. Everyone I know that made the change from rim to disc is happy.

The main issue with the pros is the extra time it takes to change wheels, but that's not a problem for amateur cyclists.

 

[Cookster15]

Most people that complain have zero experience with disc brakes on road bikes.

I get that. But discs actually cost more to manufacture than rim brakes. There is more margin per bike. That is why the industry loves them. I do not doubt they are lovely to ride on if they are working well. But in terms of performance benefits (seconds or watts) there are none for experienced riders except in limited circumstances. Why rush to "upgrade" for something you don't need?

Have you also noticed the recent escalation in prices on top end road bikes? I suggest part of this is the move to disc and manufacturers striving to offset about half a kilo of weight (closer to 1kg when you add aero frames) via other expensive means to get back closer to the UCI limit which was easy before discs came along.

 

[carolina]

The discs give no advantage to pros, but the disc wheels will.

The price increase is unfortunate, but the market is also a bit weird right now. At least in Portugal it's almost impossible to buy a bike right now, they 're sold out everywere and the waiting time is crazy.

And a tone of people upgrade to stuff they don't need. There's a lot of people riding 8000+ euros bikes that only ride once a week at a low pace.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Here is where I will plug small frame/bicycle manufactures. For very reasonable prices compared to the big brands, you can get a custom bike from many frame builders in Carbon, Ti, Steel, and combinations of those. I built up my McGovern Carbon/Steel for about what a mid-level road bike would cost, and the frame was built to my measurements, and is absolutely the best feeling bike I've ever ridden. The benefit for spending your money with the smaller guys is that you can get anything you want. You want rim brakes? No problem...I understand the draw backs of discs for road bikes. I also love them on mine, because I live in the upper foothills of the Sierras in Northern CA. I appreciate the power discs give me on descents, and I do think it makes me faster on descents...but I'm no pro. Either way, good rim brake calipers will last 100 years and still work, so I think if you want to have rim brakes, maybe it's also a good time to buy from a frame builder near you, who is well regarded, and builds nice bikes...because I'm willing to bet there is one not too far away from any of you.