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Chris Horner diagnosed with Blood clot

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Jul 14, 2009
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Havetts said:
ToC is a big cycling event, just not as big as some people like to make out, 4th gt comments stick out.

Yes in the ToC Horner reached a 6,7 w/kg, which is quite disturbing in my eyes eventhough the climb to Sierra Road wasnt as long as a hors categorie Alpe climb is. Assuming Horner didn't fully peak for the ToC he wouldve been devastating in this years Tour de France if he could reach an even higher level than in the ToC.

Also it isnt really working in Horner's favor that he is on the Hog's team either, reasons I assume are known :).
I think you assume very liberally. Start with your Hog thing, get a couple of cycling books and mags and websites and read deep into cycling history, Hog has a special place as far as putting riders on the podium. Waht eam would have Horner fit in? Other than the HogShack?

The ToC is new,unproven, not worked into the pro cycling infer structure any more than the TDU or the Tour of Qatar. Yes they may grow to be part of a peak but probably not given the time of year they occur and the travel time to reward ratio for teams and sponsors. I am guessing that you are answering me using the super flux capacitor theory about impossible gigawatts that Horner produced while doing a climb.

You are right and wrong again at the same time. Yes Horner could have been more "devastating" amybe by crashing into livestock or a team bus. He has been pretty devastating along w Zabriski, Van deVelde and Levi it's just you thing he is devastating in a good way.

Tommy D was not devastating this year he kept his head in the game and his bhut on the bike and got a top 10. If you are looking for out of body rides you better check the numbers on that rail thin,super fast Canadian guy. His alien parents even misspelled his name when they were designing their bike mutant baby
 
Jun 18, 2009
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what on earth does the quality of the event have to do with anything? power is power, and Horner put out the same power (or more) up Sierra than Contador did up Verbier, in a similar race situation (a relatively short finishing climb).

Unless of course, you thing that guys can reach a level at the ToC which they can't reach in the very first mountain stage of the Tour. What are these magical properties which allow guys to ride faster at the ToC than at the most important race of the season? Honestly, you're being ridiculous.

Blood clots are multicausal and trying to determine an exact cause post hoc is an exercise in futility. But there's no question that blood boosting methods and products increases their risk, which really isn't a great idea when one already has other risk factors which go along with being a professional cyclists.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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I saw a dude on a Raleigh fixie with a flat today. That reminds me, my dad had a broken spoke on his Raleigh. Therefore all Raleigh bikes blow
 
Mar 16, 2009
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Boeing said:
I saw a dude on a Raleigh fixie with a flat today. That reminds me, my dad had a broken spoke on his Raleigh. Therefore all Raleigh bikes blow
I learned this little ditty when I was about 6. The logic is perfect


Why fire engines are red,

2+2=4

3x4=12

There are 12 inches in a ruler.

Queen Elizabeth was a ruler.

Queen Elizabeth was also a ship.

Ships swim in water.

Fish also swim in water.

Fish have fins.

The Finns fought the Russians.

The Russians are red.

And because fire engines are always rushin',

They're red too.

I think we can all agree on this:rolleyes:
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Boeing said:
I saw a dude on a Raleigh fixie with a flat today. That reminds me, my dad had a broken spoke on his Raleigh. Therefore all Raleigh bikes blow
I have concluded that your Dad's power was produced naturally and that the broken spoke should not be viewed as suspect. You should ebay/buy your old man an old Raleigh for Christmas as a cool son
 
Sep 25, 2009
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pedaling squares said:
Cool act Billy, but you do realize that you are visiting a discussion forum and not a court of law? People don't come here to convict or acquit, they come here to discuss. And that involves speculation (aka BS) in the absence of "hard facts". And I don't care what time of year it was, how hard the competition was trying, or if Sierra Rd is only 5 km long - I still find Horner's incredible performance suspicious. Speculative indeed.
agreed generally...

still, how much did you learn in this thread about the doping angle that helped you to disposition the horner's inarguable health issue one or the other ?

honestly, despite some very good posts, it didn't help me that much.

hope you're luckier..
 
My first inclination was that this discussion was rubbish, but the use of EPO may result in increase platelet production. As far as I know, RBCs are not involved with clotting but do contribute to viscosity. However after a little bit of reading, it does appear that platelet production is increased with EPO usage and one study found them to be more reactive.

However, as the early responders indicated, it is far more likely that the trauma to his body, coupled with a flight back to the US is responsible for the clot.

I have personally know (or knew) two apparently healthy individuals who developed clots that began migrating. One didn't make it off the plane. The other went to the hospital with a numb leg and was put on meds for a few months.

Makes my skin crawl thinking about how a bruise on your shin could mess you up. Ugh.
 
Mar 20, 2009
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as usual - ridiculous thread started for ridiculous reasons, and encouraged by ridiculous comments by ridiculous posters.
 
Oct 12, 2010
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Enough already

Skippy,

Got to agree with you. Unless there is evidence of doping, people should shut up about it. Enough already!

skippy said:
Facts of life :Chris flew home less than a week after his crash ! He suffered a variety of injuries that a MRI scan did not pick up , BUT was it full or localised scan and were the attending "Medical Staff " aware that he was likely to be flying log distance ? Another item i am wondierng about is whether he used " Compression Tights " during the flight ?

Several people should be ASHAMED of their comments in the clinic and they certainly dimish those others who provide actual informati rather than scuttlebutt !
I think they just MRI'd Horner's head, not his whole body which would be very time-consuming (considering a head MRI takes a while - I've had one!) and costly.

As others have said, and as you've pointed out here, there's probably a much more likely explanation than doping - injury, immobility while recovering, plus long-haul flight. Could have been any one of those, or all three.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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131313 said:
what on earth does the quality of the event have to do with anything? power is power, and Horner put out the same power (or more) up Sierra than Contador did up Verbier, in a similar race situation (a relatively short finishing climb).

Unless of course, you thing that guys can reach a level at the ToC which they can't reach in the very first mountain stage of the Tour. What are these magical properties which allow guys to ride faster at the ToC than at the most important race of the season? Honestly, you're being ridiculous.

Blood clots are multicausal and trying to determine an exact cause post hoc is an exercise in futility. But there's no question that blood boosting methods and products increases their risk, which really isn't a great idea when one already has other risk factors which go along with being a professional cyclists.
Horner has ridden steep hard climbs like this before he could afford EPO. Does that exclude him from it's use? No. Does it mean the clot came from the use of EPO? I doubt it. Half his body was in a car wreck and the excess blood trauma is going somewhere.
 
Jun 1, 2011
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pedaling squares said:
Cool act Billy, but you do realize that you are visiting a discussion forum and not a court of law? People don't come here to convict or acquit, they come here to discuss. And that involves speculation (aka BS) in the absence of "hard facts". And I don't care what time of year it was, how hard the competition was trying, or if Sierra Rd is only 5 km long - I still find Horner's incredible performance suspicious. Speculative indeed.
Discussions are about the weather. Debate is a better word choice for what goes on here, and for that you might come to the table with a few facts. Heck, cycling is suspicious. Sport is suspicious. You could be considered suspicious. I could be or am considered suspicious.

In my opinion a lot what is said here is speculative. The question is how much so. Yes EPO could contribute to a clot, but so do many factors that fit what happened to Horner. We also forget that he hit the deck a couple of times before the big one. Wounds, rash or bruising, stimulate platelet activity…

I find it hard to swallow stuff like the Alpe vs. Sierra Road comparison. There is a big difference between 5ks and 14Ks at about the same grade. Yet, someone tries to say they're the same and when you call them on it they, or others say it does not matter?

Irish great Sean Kelly won the Giro di Lombardia at the age of 37. 2nd at Worlds, at the age of 35. Ironically Horner finished seventh at Lombardia at the same age (37) and he was shagging bottles!

But seventh places don't get noticed that much.

There's much writing off the cuff here. Horner has had more than "few" fine performances and not just late in his career. Too bad he had to ride his best years at home.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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krebs303 said:
Looking further into it EPO use can increase risk. just quick from Wikipedia

"According to Virchow's triad, venous thrombosis occurs via three mechanisms: decreased flow rate of the blood, damage to the blood vessel wall and an increased tendency of the blood to clot (hypercoagulability). Several medical conditions can lead to DVT, such as compression of the veins, physical trauma, cancer, infections, certain inflammatory diseases and specific conditions such as stroke, heart failure or nephrotic syndrome. There are several factors which can increase a person's risk for DVT, including surgery, hospitalization, immobilization (such as when orthopedic casts are used, or during long-haul flights, leading to traveller's thrombosis), smoking, obesity, age, certain drugs (such as estrogen, or erythropoietin) and inborn tendencies to form clots known as thrombophilia"

So choose a side and have at it! :D
Or how about you wish the guy well and assume it MAY have had something to do with the very serious trauma he suffered.
 
he hit the ground hard. hard enough to break bones, so bruising for sure. i think he is a recipient of some bad luck, and i wish him a speedy recovery. i was pulling for him at the TDF.
 
Jun 1, 2011
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Irish great Sean Kelly won the Giro di Lombardia at the age of 37. 2nd at Worlds, at the age of 35. Ironically Horner finished seventh at Lombardia at the same age (37) and he was shagging bottles!
[/QUOTE]

Kelly would have been 34 and 36 respectfully. Horner, actually would have just turned 38.

Get well soon Chris!
 
May 26, 2010
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BillytheKid said:
Irish great Sean Kelly won the Giro di Lombardia at the age of 37. 2nd at Worlds, at the age of 35. Ironically Horner finished seventh at Lombardia at the same age (37) and he was shagging bottles!
Kelly would have been 34 and 36 respectfully. Horner, actually would have just turned 38.

Get well soon Chris![/QUOTE]

Kelly won Giro Di Lombardia at age 35.
 
Mar 16, 2009
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richwagmn said:
Or how about you wish the guy well and assume it MAY have had something to do with the very serious trauma he suffered.
I don't see where I posted an opinion one way or another. I posted a wiki article which listed causes of DVT's.
 
davestoller said:
blood thinners, hematoma, innocuous crash?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/joe-papp/ignominious-end
Ignominious indeed.

Brilliant. I had blood clots and used EPO. So everyone that has blood clots, uses EPO.
reminds me of college philosophy:
cue to 2:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

JP: You broke your knee. You had surgery. You were immobilized. That is one of the most common cause of all blood clots--surgery after trauma to the lower extremity. Did the use of EPO help matters? Of course not, but if your hematocrit was 50-55%, might well have made things worse.? DO you have the pre-op lab values to share with us? Did they tell you what it was? Unlikely Horner's hematocrit was over 45 with the biological passport. One way or the other.

What about Mikey Friedman? Meatball had a P.E.
and Leiden V factor mutation if I recall correctly...
Irony alert--he was treated at UPMC--your old team sponsor.

from velonews:
American racer Michael Friedman (Kelly Benefit Strategies-OptumHealth) suffered a similar ailment in 2006 and said Monday that it is a scary time for Horner, but that a return to racing should be possible. Friedman reached out to Horner’s fiancée Megan Elliot and said he had been in frequent contact throughout the morning.

“I told her everything’s going to be OK, but it’s a stressful and scary situation,” Friedman told VeloNews. “He’s really quite lucky. When a clot moves, there are three places it can go: the heart — bad, the brain — bad, the lung — not as bad.”

Friedman suffered a pulmonary embolism in 2006 following surgery to treat a saddle sore. Like Horner, Friedman’s clot came on suddenly.

“You can’t imagine what it feels like. For me it was like having a knife stuck in my chest and turned, all the way to my back,” said Friedman. “I couldn’t breathe. I thought I was having a heart attack. I couldn’t feel my left arm and had this piercing chest pain.”

In Pittsburgh after a cross-country drive, Friedman was three minutes from the university hospital and went immediately. He said four factors likely worked to produce the clot: the surgery, the drive, dehydration and a previously undiagnosed clotting disorder. Horner was largely on a schedule of rest and recuperation after returning to Bend following a stage 9 crash that ended his Tour de France last month. He had just begun training again over the weekend. Friedman suggested that the clot could be a result of Horner’s crash.
Just pointing out the fact that I developed 3 blood clots after a crash, before which I'd been using EPO. You guys are the ones who read into that.
 
Oct 9, 2010
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Frank VDB

Frank Vandenbroucke died of lung embolism in Senegal. By debating we won't find the true cause, but doping is a possible contributing factor, though flying long distances is more important.

I don't want Horner to die, even if people consider 40 years an old age.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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Intentionally or otherwise, this type of thread always has a "kick em while they're down" aspect, which I'm not really comfortable with. That being said, a number of points have been made, which are useful reminders for anyone making doping choices:

1) Super-fit cyclists do get blood clots, due to crashes and plane flights.
2) Blood clots can have extremely serious consequences, which can be fatal.
3) EPO increases your risk of developing blood clots.

I wonder if there are certain circumstances where it's really important for a PED user to tell the doctor what they have been taking.......?
 

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