Chris Horner's secret - beetroot juice?

[_Zipp0_]

I like Horner. He's 40.... I'm 40. It's inspiring to see an "old" guy take it to the field. I think it CAN be done. When I drop a 25 year old Cat 4 is he thinking "look at the old Cat 4 doper?" If so, that is just sad. People must need excuses for their own lack of dedication.

 

[Anonymous]

Chris Horner

Tour of California 2011, Stage 4, Final climb Sierra Rd

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 532 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 5.63 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 1004 = 16 min 44 sec = 16:44
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 63.5 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 9.4 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 20.1 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 71.5 kg

Power : 434.7 Watt
Power / kg : 6.8 Watt / kg

Source: [ http://www.rst.mp-all.de/bergauf.htm ]

I hope he'll release the SRM file later.

Don't know about Horner, but check out Rory Sutherland's numbers.... they seem, uh, real good?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/05/news/california-power-analysis-of-rory-sutherlands-stage-4-power-data_174455

 

[blackcat]

 

[blackcat]

this $hit is good, the wife swears by it

 

[Cloxxki]

OK, I've been using beetroot juice to prepare for some recent races. One time it seemed to work nicely, the other time I wondered why I went through it all.

Research I found, states a 15-16% increase in endurance of a given power output. Seems huge.
However, for the 5k run I recently did, this comes down to some 11 seconds of advantage over an 18 minute effort. Determined using the decline of average speeds in world records as the distance is increased. With the beetroot juice, I was supposed to hold on to my 5k pace for 5800m. I entered this with the time my 5k pace would offer, and recalculated my 5k based on it. http://www.runningforfitness.org helps me greatly with that sort of thing.
For me, it comes down to about the same advantage as losing 1kg of body weight from the 85-90kg I usually carry around. The weight loss however is more dependable, and less subject to how good of a responder you are.
Also, the things I'd be doing to reach a 1kg weight loss, would make me a better runner as well. Eating less carbs for an extended period (just loading up 1-2 days before the race suffices), adding some endurance runs, etc.

Totally sounds like LA's cadance talk.
Horner must be a huge talent who failed to "focus" or "train hard" before. Or, he was taught to "suffer" by his cleanliness.

 

[Escarabajo]

...
Finally, if this really works, should it be banned? Does the fact that nitrate is a "natural" substance matter? If some rider with access to new science can go faster not through more training, but simply through taking a substance that other riders don't know about, is that a violation of the spirt of athletics or not? Could make for a very lively debate.

"Coca" leaves are natural too. So you better avoid them.

 

[flicker]

You guys can support Horner and I'll support my man Contador, but the difference is I don't delude myself into thinking some 40 year-old suddenly finds the form of his life, riding up hills against Euro competition and not even breathing hard.

What a joke.

Oh wait, Horner's a nice guy...that should make a difference, shouldn't it?

I guess when Horner won the sea otter t mobile races pais basque, all tough races same thing, huh. all tough steep pitches, no need to look at his past wins.
OK you be bitter, jealous angry. I will be cheering him on today.
Scissors cut paper.

 

[Escarabajo]

Chris Horner

Tour of California 2011, Stage 4, Final climb Sierra Rd

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 532 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 5.63 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 1004 = 16 min 44 sec = 16:44
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 63.5 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 9.4 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 20.1 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 71.5 kg

Power : 434.7 Watt
Power / kg : 6.8 Watt / kg

Source: [ http://www.rst.mp-all.de/bergauf.htm ]

I hope he'll release the SRM file later.

Thanks.

That is a short distance, so it is hard to tell. Contador beat that in Verbier with a longer distance. We should have tables for more time intervals. It is difficult to see what his power at FT would be.

This is all I have:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspx

 

[AndrewM]

But do you have to delude yourself to support Contador? A guy who has tested positive, stroked out at an age when you just don't stroke out and has dubious links. If your gonna love this sport you better be ready to delude yourself some days and just enjoy the spectacle. He's 39 btw.

What age is acceptable for a stroke then?

 

[Franklin]

Don't know about Horner, but check out Rory Sutherland's numbers.... they seem, uh, real good?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/05/news/california-power-analysis-of-rory-sutherlands-stage-4-power-data_174455

Not bad for a Uci Pro Conti racer

Next year back to EUROPE?

 

[python]

self-deleted due to a mistake.

 

[roundabout]

Uh, Sutherland was 1 minute 15 seconds behind at the top.

 

[python]

Uh, Sutherland was 1 minute 15 seconds behind at the top.

yes I just noticed the mistake before your post. that makes the halalama's estimate quite plausible- perhaps within 5%.

 

[Merckx index]

VAM of 1907 (!). Using VAM, 6.47 watts/kg, with all the cautions as discussed on other threads. YMMV. YWMV, too.

Bottom line: Though this was a relatively short climb, a monster effort. However, perhaps we should make a beetroot correction, of, say, 2.8%. So 6.29 watts/kg BRF (beetroot-free).

 

[Siriuscat]

What age is acceptable for a stroke then?

Strokes can happen at any age, a colleague had his first stroke at 9 then at 14.....he's absolutley fine but it does happen

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I don't see what all the fuss is about - it makes perfect sense.

 

[SuperHuman]

Horner gives his take.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8sYYSBu3Rw

 

[JRTinMA]

What age is acceptable for a stroke then?

There all always exceptions but the top three reasons for stoke at that age are drugs, drugs or drugs.

 

[Polish]

I guess when Horner won the sea otter t mobile races pais basque, all tough races same thing, huh. all tough steep pitches, no need to look at his past wins.
OK you be bitter, jealous angry. I will be cheering him on today.
Scissors cut paper.

+1 on Berzin being just jealous.

After all, Chris has a pristine Blood Profile Ranking of 0.00000000000
And Berzin's hero Mr Bang Bang has a filthy 5.0

Thats gotta hurt ouch.

And after Alberto gets removed from the 2010 TdF results, Chris will move up from tenth to ninth. Number One "zero" rider in the Tour will not change though.

Great ride "Redneck"!

 

[9000ft]

This thread would be much more entertaining if it were titled "There's no way Horner is clean"

Then we could really get into the fanboy, chamois sniffers vs the true cycling fans.

 

[SuperHuman]

A point about the suspicion list. As I understand it, it was based on the rider's history before the 2010 TdF. I make no allegation about Chris Horner - his improvement might be a good response to training and beetroot nitrate - but he didn't ride the previous tours with RadioShack. It's possible the suspicion list has changed quite a bit since July 1st of last year. Contador, for instance, has probably moved up to 8 or 9 simply because of his positive and plasticizer readings.

 

[DirtyWorks]

The statistics in the papers they cite look a little suspicious to me. In the abstract of the first paper referenced, they report that beetroot juice (BR) “reduced systolic blood pressure (129 ± 9 vs. 124 ± 10 mmHg, P < 0.01).” I don't have access to the whole article, so couldn't evaluate their statistics for certain, but I find it hard to believe that a 4% decrease with a larger SD is significant at the 0.01 level. Likewise for reduction of oxygen cost of moderate intensity running (2.26 ± 0.27 and 2.10 ± 0.28 l/min), severe intensity running (3.77 ± 0.57 and 3.50 ± 0.62 l/min), and time to exhaustion of severe intensity running (7.6 ± 1.5 and 8.7 ± 1.8 min). They claim all these differences are significant at the 0.01 level, yet for comparison, the Qmax difference (0.93 ± 0.05 and 1.05 ± 0.22 mM/s), which is about as large with comparable SDs, is not significant. Doesn’t add up.

Same thing for the second paper cited, a time trial study. BR significantly increased mean PO during the 4-km (PL = 279 ± 51 vs BR = 292 ± 44 W, P < 0.05) and 16.1-km TT (PL = 233 ± 43 vs BR = 247 ± 44 W, P < 0.01). The statistics look flawed to me.

To be fair, even a very small increase in power output would be helpful to a racer, and there wouldn’t seem to be anything to lose by drinking this stuff. The difference in TT times they report would correspond to about a minute in a 40 min. race, obviously a significant advantage. The problem is that the high variability suggests that the effect is hardly uniform, that different riders would experience greatly different benefits, probably in some cases little or not benefit at all.

Finally, if this really works, should it be banned? Does the fact that nitrate is a "natural" substance matter? If some rider with access to new science can go faster not through more training, but simply through taking a substance that other riders don't know about, is that a violation of the spirt of athletics or not? Could make for a very lively debate.

Thanks for the analysis. I really value your insights. They are hard to come by.

Beet juice as a PED is an interesting case. It doesn't kill, it's cheap and it's widely available. I would allow it.

But, if beet juice would actually enhance performance, it sets off the pharmacology arms race for the chemical elements in the juice providing the performance enhancement to be isolated, patented, then dosed to life threatening levels. Can't allow that.

As for Horner's performance, only power and blood data over many days could give clues as to his doping likelihood. Also note, the field is not deep at ToC as compared to say, the Tour of Switzerland. A breakout performance is very likely based on the population of riders he's racing against.

 

[Cloxxki]

A point about the suspicion list. As I understand it, it was based on the rider's history before the 2010 TdF. I make no allegation about Chris Horner - his improvement might be a good response to training and beetroot nitrate - but he didn't ride the previous tours with RadioShack. It's possible the suspicion list has changed quite a bit since July 1st of last year. Contador, for instance, has probably moved up to 8 or 9 simply because of his positive and plasticizer readings.

Exactly the way I feel. You saved me a post.

 

[DirtyWorks]

A point about the suspicion list. As I understand it, it was based on the rider's history before the 2010 TdF. I make no allegation about Chris Horner - his improvement might be a good response to training and beetroot nitrate - but he didn't ride the previous tours with RadioShack. It's possible the suspicion list has changed quite a bit since July 1st of last year. Contador, for instance, has probably moved up to 8 or 9 simply because of his positive and plasticizer readings.

Please be careful taking the list you mention as generated objectively. It's reasonable to believe that the list values are moderated given Pat's public discussion of the criteria including 'aspirations' among a host of totally subjective criteria mentioned.

 

[Frosty]

Horner did well last year, compared to other years, before the Tour de France, ie the tour of the Basque Country but yes some people will have gone up or down.