Clarification, and re the Forum thread.

[Anonymous]

while i was going to the trouble of writing the post, the thread was locked. But Im not going to waste it.

It's only what Dimspace actually said in his last post! At least do him the service of reading it. He clearly states that his leaving was nothing to do with twitter - it was because YOU and your gang selfishly decided to ruin the thread. How ironic that you call me "out of touch". Maybe if you apologised to Dimspace for your trolling and promise not to do it again he and other decent people might comeback. People are just sick of it.

Im going to clarify what I said and what I meant. Last nights display in the clinic was just another example of the pack mentality in this place. It isnt the sole reason Ive had enough, so sorry arbiter, you cant quiet take either the credit for that, or put the blame on others, but it helped make a decision that to be honest I have been pondering for about three months. Its nothing to do with you, trolling or not, or even really their response. That just contributed to something I had already been thinking about.

Its because once certain posters get the bit between their teeth, they join forces, slap each other on the back, congratulate each other be it, putting down a forum poster, editing a wikipedia page, slamming a poster for daring to like a rider they dont like, attacking a "troll" and causing more chaos than the original troll, they bully and tease and torment.

I can deal with it, I just have one of my little rants and Im fine again, they chill me out and clear the air, but there are new posters who dont even dare post, there are many many posters who have left. The whole place is a laughing stock outside of the forum and is commonly referred to as a clique, or a bunch of girls, you only have to look around twitter or facebook or google to see what people think of this place. It can be very unwelcoming, daunting, and that generally is down to the agression of a select few people.

This forum allows people of 16 years old on here. Would you let your 16 year old take part in some of the conversations that go on, the rudeness, the adult language, the censor overriding to use censored words (and yes, thats something i am guilty of when im really ****ed off), the allowance of users to be called, and not deliberately singling out Hugh, but Huge Anus, there is so much that should have been cranked down on months ago that has been allowed to develop and now the place is a mess.

There are a handful of people who seem to have free reign, for whom there is no comeback when they bully people, or swear, or disrupt threads, and yes, no comeback when they take threads that where going along just fine, and spend more time shouting troll than being adult and simply reporting the problem to a moderator.

Im going to hold off from posting, not because It gets to me, I can deal with it, but because I cannot hold my tongue, and Im not bothered about saying what I think. We saw that last night until a lot of my posts where deleted, and the problem is, others came forward and agreed. The forum will end up split down the middle, and I aint being held responsible for that one. When you lot can grow up, learn to live with each other, learn to respect each others opinions even if you dont always agree with them, and try and stick to cycling which is ultimately what this forum is about, then ive got something to contribute.

God i sound self righteous, Im partly to blame myself, I could shut up and let things go but i tend to go at them like a dog with a wet rag. But, every action has a consequence, and some of you need to start to think before you post, think about what the consequence will be, will it be disruptive, will it make the problem worse, or even, will it upset the other person, because behind every set of random pixels, there is actually a real person. Ive seen people say things about TFF that where beyond reprehensible, people just need to stop and think before they do something.

Seriously though, I need a break before i really really kick off. Any race links or video will still be posted through teamskyfansm unless im done for having two usernames, but as far as personal posts go Im saying nothing, cos I will just snap, and that will do nothing to help the chaotic situation we have here.

As for Arbiter, personally, the current way of banning, rebanning, arguing doesnt work, so why not just give the guy a chance, if he says stuff you dont agree with then talk rationally and explain in an adult way why you dont agree, if you think he is trolling, then report it to the mods, what have you got to lose, the place is already a war zone, it can hardly get any worse can it.

As an aside, I see no reason why this post should join the list of deleted ones.

As an additional note, regarding last nights argument over the "troll", Something from Greg Johnson from Last July

TFF will be back in 48 hours. Unfortunately he chose to engage in unacceptable behaviour in response to a troll rather than use the forum's built-in methods for notifying the moderators, despite being previously warned.

I welcome all of you to flag any post - or trolls - that you feel are inappropriate up to the moderators using the reporting system within the forum. People often post about us not addressing issues, however those are - generally speaking - people who have never brought an issue forward with the moderators.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

TFF was banned for responding unacceptably to a troll. Just saying.

 

[message for RR]

Its because once certain posters get the bit between their teeth, they join forces, slap each other on the back, congratulate each other be it, putting down a forum poster, editing a wikipedia page, slamming a poster for daring to like a rider they dont like, attacking a "troll" and causing more chaos than the original troll, they bully and tease and torment.

Now, we do have a little bit of a problem here, because RaceRadio believes the above section in no way applies to him. He believes that he never calls anyone a troll,or is part of a pack that slaps each other on the back for bullying other posters and disrupting threads so they can't debate with people in a normal way.

Do you agree with RaceRadio that he is not apart of that? I know he is by no means the only one, but is he right to say he never does any of that and you are in no way refering to him?

Sorry to put you on the spot here, but as you can imagine I am rather dumb founded by his pretence at innocents.

 

[message for RR]

there are new posters who dont even dare post, there are many many posters who have left. The whole place is a laughing stock outside of the forum and is commonly referred to as a clique, or a bunch of girls, you only have to look around twitter or facebook or google to see what people think of this place. It can be very unwelcoming, daunting, and that generally is down to the agression of a select few people.

Excellent point. Most of them have been banned from other forums and see this as their base. New people are intimidated from posting because they might actually admire a top cyclist. This lot will hound them off.

There are a handful of people who seem to have free reign, for whom there is no comeback when they bully people, or swear, or disrupt threads, and yes, no comeback when they take threads that where going along just fine, and spend more time shouting troll than being adult and simply reporting the problem to a moderator.

Very brave words.

 

[message for RR]

Good point in the update.

Unfortunately you probably didn't see my previous posts.

For what it's worth, TFF may have the worst reputation on the board, but he does seem to be aware of his problem. That's why he has stayed out of the latest bullying episode and seems to take time out from time to time. The guy has some self awareness and can learn from his experiences.

Unfortunately that can't be said for RR. Delusional is not really a good enough word.

 

[franciep10]

I completely agree dim this forum has become unwelcoming to new posters. I took a hiatus in the off season because it just got too annoying, I thought things would cool off when the season started but I was wrong. Can we please just go back to ignoring this guy anytime he comes back. When I was a kid and this other kid used to get under my skin when I lashed out at him and responded violently he just continued so I Ignored him and he just became pathetic and inevitably stopped because he didn't get the attention he craved. My suggestion let the guy post and ignore him if you can't take him anymore and then he'll probably go away. Otherwise you guys who normally are good posters seem just as bad as sir troll a lot.

 

[Martin318is]

100% agree Dim!

There were a few of us (from memory that included you) that tried mid-last year to get CN involved early to set the proper tone of the forums. They were completely absent in this period and in their place, a collection of people have created a forum in their own image and continue to dominate it through weight of numbers of posts.

Amongst other problems, apparently (through the evidence of non-action) CyclingNews.com entirely endorses extraordinarily liabellous statements. This does not look good for them or the other members that do not engage in such behaviour.

I personally think that:

1) a full set of forum guidelines needs to be finalised and all accounts be temporarily suspended and members be forced to agree to the new guidelines before being allowed to start posting again.

2) An extra 2 or 3 moderators need to be put in place so that moderation isn't so reliant upon people being awake.

3) Banning needs to be revised to make it more permanent

4) Any pack attack on a poster (whether a known troll or not) should result in deletion of posts and/or locking of the thread.

5) Any clear breach of the guidelines should result in temporary suspension or permanent banning.

The key is that we need to get rid of the concept that "I can do it because look HE/SHE said the same thing in this post and got away with it."

any other suggestions?

 

[Ferminal]

The alternative requires a level of control and moderation, which I doubt CN are willing to provide.

 

[Martin318is]

The alternative requires a level of control and moderation, which I doubt CN are willing to provide.

but THATs the point. There is absolutely no reason that CN staff have to be the main moderators at this point. There are clearly enough concerned citizens willing to lend a hand to pick up that task. Then all they need to do is have one Admin who has the power to delete a user when they receive a submission from a Moderator.

The admins on most forums dont actually spend much time posting on them, they just respond to email notifications and work in the background

 

[message for RR]

but THATs the point. There is absolutely no reason that CN staff have to be the main moderators at this point. There are clearly enough concerned citizens willing to lend a hand to pick up that task. Then all they need to do is have one Admin who has the power to delete a user when they receive a submission from a Moderator.

The admins on most forums dont actually spend much time posting on them, they just respond to email notifications and work in the background

You make some good points, but how do you stop the situation where the same gang that disrupts the threads at the moment become all the moderators? That's sort of the problem we have currently where the few mods are hopelessly biased and complicit by allowing their friends to do what they want whilst enforcing strict rules on the rest. They've allowed CN forums to be the haven for half a dozen guys that have been banned from most of the other forums on the internet.

I suppose a clear set of guidelines might mitigate this somewhat. But the mods really have to be fans of cycling - not just haters.

 

[Race Radio]

It appears the Mods are starting to get a handle on the issue. I do not see a reason to respond to the troll when he pops up anymore as his posts disappear quickly.

Of course this just means he moves the baiting to PM. So far today he has sent over 30 of them to me, all more crazy then the next. It is easy to say "Ignore the Troll" but this guy goes out of his way to bait you. It is his only goal to get others to respond to his drivel and pull the discussion off topic. He often succeeds and then claims persecution when asked to leave.

There is one unstable person who is driven to disrupt this forum. It is easy to miss many of the hundreds of deleted baiting posts this person has made and the dozens of PM's sent in a vain attempt to get other posters to engage with him. His goal is simple, to disrupt the forum as much as possible. To make this a difficult place to communicate.

In some ways he has succeeded. His actions have made the forum a snappier place as users often overreact to what might be one of his over 30 banned usernames. Healthy debate is a good thing but there is one person has worked hard to poison that here.

 

[message for RR]

It appears the Mods are starting to get a handle on the issue. I do not see a reason to respond to the troll when he pops up anymore as his posts disappear quickly.

Of course this just means he moves the baiting to PM. So far today he has sent over 30 of them to me, all more crazy then the next. It is easy to say "Ignore the Troll" but this guy goes out of his way to bait you. It is his only goal to get others to respond to his drivel and pull the discussion off topic. He often succeeds and then claims persecution when asked to leave.

There is one unstable person who is driven to disrupt this forum. It is easy to miss many of the hundreds of deleted baiting posts this person has made and the dozens of PM's sent in a vain attempt to get other posters to engage with him. His goal is simple, to disrupt the forum as much as possible. To make this a difficult place to communicate.

In some ways he has succeeded. His actions have made the forum a snappier place as users often overreact to what might be one of his over 30 banned usernames. Healthy debate is a good thing but there is one person has worked hard to poison that here.

Still the same old talking point about "the troll".

Look, most of these guys don't even like me - you're preaching to the converted on that. What they're talking about here is how you and your friends start behaving even worse than "the troll" by disrupting threads just because you don't like me. And it's not just me, there is a pack mentality at play here - new posters are put off by the way you demonise fans of the sport.

You have absolutely nothing to say on any of these points. That's frankly quite disrespective to the other posters in this thread and else where. Why can't you even address their problem with you (and others).

By the way, RaceRadio has spent hours trolling in PMs by pretending he has nothing to do with this gang of trolls that intimidate and disrupt. Delusional is not really a good enough word for it.

 

[message for RR]

I hate to say this, but I'm starting to wonder if he is just genuinely stupid. I thought he was trolling before....maybe he really just doesn't read any of the other posts and doesn't understand, I don't know.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

...any other suggestions?

Martin - There is much credence to what you say but please understand a few things. There are guidelines and forum rules already, though they are not always followed. This is then left to moderators to police the forums which have become increasingly active, and of late, antagonistic. When I became a moderator I took the stance that I would have a mostly laisse-faire approach, and Dim was one who agreed with me. I had no idea things would turn the way they did. Neither did he, I'm sure. But instead I have probably turned into the most aggressive moderator. I probably deleted close to 100 posts yesterday, maybe more. But there's limits to the amount of time I can spend here. I work a full-time job, I also have a family, and my own life to live. I can try to log on as quickly as I can get to a computer to respond to complaints, but on days like yesterday they piled up as fast as I could read them, let alone respond to them.

It bothers me a lot when people who got along quite civilly over the last year are bickering at each other, and the so called "gang mentality" you speak of. While I understand the impetus for this, very clearly, it is why I posted yesterday, and will state again - if you have an issue with a post, please report it. Do NOT respond to it, just report it. I, or one of the other moderators, will try to respond as quickly as possible and deal with it, please be patient. Dim is right in one large aspect - there is nothing else you can do. Nothing. Just tossing insults back to the offender isn't going to do anything. Some people actually feed on it. So if you see something, just report it. Please.

 

[message for RR]

I've to credit BroDeal, blackcat and TFF.

You don't see any of them here trying to pretend there is no issue with how they sometimes behave. That would be silly.

 

[message for RR]

Martin - There is much credence to what you say but please understand a few things. There are guidelines and forum rules already, though they are not always followed.

All the rules apply to me, not anyone else. But the rules are not clear enough. That's why you are able to get away with being so biased.

When I became a moderator I took the stance that I would have a mostly laisse-faire approach, and Dim was one who agreed with me.

With respect, that was the problem. You just allowed these guys to ruin thread after thread by talking about trolls and pretending anyone who supports a rider must work for a PR company. Most people are happy to be smeared and don't come back. What they did not count on is me standing up for myself and calling them on it. If you had just applied the rules fairly then it would not have gotten to this stage. RR even brags that he has never been warned. I know you say he is not right about that, and so does Susan, but clearly the message needed to have been gotten across stronger before it got out of hand.

I had no idea things would turn the way they did. Neither did he, I'm sure. But instead I have probably turned into the most aggressive moderator. I probably deleted close to 100 posts yesterday, maybe more.[/quote]

And it ruins threads when you do that. But don't worry, I'm going from this site. I just wanted to make sure RR could not like and pretend there was no problem with his behaviour. Now that others have spoken out that cannot be clearer. Omerta is crumbling.

 

[BroDeal]

while i was going to the trouble of writing the post, the thread was locked. But Im not going to waste it....

Sorry, dude, but this comes off as wailing of a drama queen. It is disingenuous and manipulative. Aside from assuring us multiple times that you can take it--which you obviously cannot--you cast going off in a hissy fit as a noble stand to protect new members. Even worse, you use the contemptible tactics of political operatives pressurng the public with calls of, "Think of the children". The goal of the pressure seems to be: Bend to my will or I won't come back.

That you are complaining about a few swear words, even as you yourself get caught out by the filter, shows that you are grasping at straws. This is not the 1950's. There is far far more to be worried about on the Internet than "bad" words, and that sort of content is always just a few clicks away. Any curious child has already gotten an eyeful. It is fantasy to think otherwise. Your complaining about it looks like a cynical attempt to buttress your argument with whatever weak support you can find.

The word filter is not respected because it is outrageously restrictive. Many people complained about it initially. All sorts of common phrases, like "p!ssed off" or "kicking @ss", are filtered. We cannot even use the name of the former head of WADA. It is ridiculous, and people know it. Since there is no respect for it, people flout it.

You have not exactly gained a lot of credibility by hitching your wagon to BPC. I don't know whether you are just clueless or are intentionally demagoguing the issue, but I do suspect you are demagoguing the issue. Those BPC supporters in yesterday's thread who you point to as supporting your view were the same dissatisfieds who make about one post a week. Those pose are always a troll calling everyone out for hating cycling, not loving Lance Armstrong, and being jealous losers who should stop posting and go ride their bikes. They will use any issue to attack the forum because they do not like the truth being available to others.

BPC is psycho. He has severe mental problems. Your assertion that we should let him run amuck is a recipe for the kind of chaos that you supposedly do not support. It was pretty nice here for the two months that he was gone, even if Jackhammer filled his same role.

From what I see your current dissatisfaction seems to come from morphing into a Skybot and not being able to take that a lot of people do not support the team and dislike its contract breaking buffoon and front person, Wigans. You were more than happy to create a rather silly competition between Garmin and Sky, two teams with incomparable budgets and racing objectives. The "Wigans" thread seems to have made you genuinely angry, though.

Auscyclefan64 does not fly off the handle when the much unloved Cuddles is criticized. You don't see me crying myself to sleep because people laugh at me and my belief that Wigans will crack in the mountains of the TdF and lose twenty minutes. A lot of the strife is passion for sport, and it is often expressed in harsh and biting remarks. Do you want to kill that?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I actually think Dim brought up some valid general points. As I posted a few times now, antagonizing each other brought no solution to anything. But I will state that I agree there was no reason for him to defend Arbiter/BPC, or any of his other 20+ incarnations. There were several reasons why he was banned, several of which involved direct confrontations with other members through private messages, and even moderators that were not seen on the general boards. This is not a normal poster who got into arguments we are talking about here and would have straightened out with a few warnings. This is a person who was repeatedly banned from the forums, and every single time circumvented flaws in the site registration in order to join again and continue to post. Even after being banned and saying he would leave, he came back. Even after being banned, and admitting he broke the rules and was indeed multiple members (who were all banned) he returned again.

Dim is right when he said that there was nothing members could do about it, and hurling insults at the guy only made it worse - and had zero effect on him - by most indications he thrived on it. The proper solution was to ignore him, and report his posts, which were nearly all deleted eventually, and he was ultimately banned. But anyone defending BPC's right to post is inappropriate. This person has no right to post on these message boards, or have his voice heard here ever again.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

I would like to address some of the issues here.

I think enough has been said about the one user who has appeared here under mulitple names, and caused so many problems. He has been banned consistently, and equally as consistently returns. We are working on a solution to this.

However, we (or at least I) have been so concentrated on this one individual, and his bad effects on the forum, that other issues have slipped through the cracks. I acknowledge this and apologize. This will change in the future.

Let me repeat what has been said before. When there is a problem, report it. Send the message to all the mods, and send me a private message. And be specific! Give the specific link, or say Post number xxx in Thread XXX. It doesn't help at all to say, someone said something nasty about me in the Wiggins/Armstrong/whatever thread.

If you have “outed” yourself as a fan of one particular rider – or if you have let it be known that you have a fansite for a rider – you can expect to be picked on about it. That's simply a fact of life.

It has been suggested that more mods be added. I will address this issue with management.

And finally, as to this “omerta” business: I have no earth where this comes from. Cyclingnews has no agenda as to suppressing the fans of one rider or another, of supporting one rider or team above others. Neither in news nor in the forum. Anyone who believes otherwise must be a fan of conspiracy theories.

The season has started, let us enjoy it with all its surprises.

Thank you.

Susan

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, dude, but this comes off as wailing of a drama queen.

Im just being drawn into the same old argument thats going to go round and round and round and round. You dont get it do you? This is not about me or anything that has been said to me, its not about the Wigans thread, its not about being fans of a partular rider. ITS NOT ABOUT ME! its about sitting back and watching certain people repeatedly bully or cause chaos on the message board. Nice job at trying to turn it round on me though, very nice job. Thats what you always do, take what someone says, ignore it, and go on the attack yourself, nice move. Its also got nothing to do with BPC, but the other night was a great example of the way you guys react without thinking properly. Its unfortunate that i kicked off on the particular night in question as it makes it look like its about that. its not.

Im talking about the fact that as francie says "this forum is unlwecoming to new posters"

Its about the pack mentality of certain people on here to bully and rubbish a whole host of posters. its about new posters who come on this forum, mention lance and are immediately insulted becuase they like armstrong, its about posters who because they say something that people dont agree with are insulted, and once one member of the group insults the others jump on board.

Youre very good at picking the points you want to, and justifying or defending those points, or even taking an entire post and turning it into a form of attack yourself.. But again, this aint about me, I dont give a **** what you say about wiggins, or sky, not a ****, this has been brewing for months watching the same old people throw their weight around, you disagree with one of them, and the whole gang jump in..

Interesting that neither of the mods has been able to tell me wether huge anus is acceptable as a username..

I am just sick of the back teath of every time i come on here seeing sniping and biting at each other. Im sick of seeing what could be good posters making one of two posts and then leaving, Im sick of when a poster disagrees with a certain poster the same old people coming to the second posters defence. *bangs head on wall*

can my username now be banned please, i really dont want to get drawn into this argument any more. thank you.

 

[auscyclefan94]

This is an internet forum and even though it shouldn't be taken personally I feel that mutual respect should be shown amongst posters.

Though, i get cuddles insults thrown at me left right and centre. Do I complain or have a sook? Sometimes I think the insults are a little unfair and over the top and whenever I make an opinion it gets ignored and a cuddles insult is a chucked in.


RE:TWITTER COMMENTS
When you make a myspace ,twitter account, etc you are "adding" something new to the internet. you expose your identity, opinions and ideas to the world. people are not always going to agree. people are going to criticise what you say. But you made a choice to make a twitter or myspace account etc. and you are putting an identity or your identity on the internet and it is public to the world. If you don't want people to criticise what you say then don't make one. On this forum, if you don't want your commments to be scrutinised well don't make an account! Expect ciriticism. But in saying that show some respect for that person's RIGHT to have an opinion.

 

[WonderLance]

I am on the internets and everything that I say is really important and its just like real life and no one should support a rider that I dont like. we sould all get more wound up about this, this is a cycling forum and therfore the most important thing that you will do today.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Hey there, wonderguy, you forgot to use your smilies......

Susan

 

[tifosa]

can my username now be banned please, i really dont want to get drawn into this argument any more. thank you.

Is this an admission that you cannot police yourself?


Or do you believe the moderators need the continued suggestions of the forum populace in order to do their jobs?



I have blocked so many forum usernames, that I've lost count. I have also disabled the "PM" function. So, these self-imposed filters continue to work. When I cannot stomach the content of any particular poster, I see the username, make a mental note, and move on. I messaged the forum moderators/cyclingnews brass at the start of this venue. I expressed concerns about several trolls of high order. My words were read, but I'm not sure they were heard.

It's a public venue. You make or read a post - you take your chances to be offensive or be offended yourself. And I say this as a person who has sued another successfully for libelous internet posts.

 

[luckyboy]

I have blocked so many forum usernames, that I've lost count. I have also disabled the "PM" function. So, these self-imposed filters continue to work. When I cannot stomach the content of any particular poster, I see the username, make a mental note, and move on. I messaged the forum moderators/cyclingnews brass at the start of this venue. I expressed concerns about several trolls of high order. My words were read, but I'm not sure they were heard.

It's a public venue. You make or read a post - you take your chances to be offensive or be offended yourself. And I say this as a person who has sued another successfully for libelous internet posts.

I've got quite a few on ignore, but I still click 'view post' a lot of the time just to see what's being said. Threads don't make a lot of sense otherwise.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

sad to see you go dim.
I try and stay out of the politics. Occasionally me and auscyclefan argue, but it's all in good fun. Our arguments are definately based on passion for the sport, and not on petty issues.
I agree respect should be shown. But at the end of the day it's just the internet, and if it gets too much you just gotta step away from the computer, no good in taking it personal.