Clean Colombians? (Arkea investigation page 27)

[Kokoso]

"Old school" (whatever that means in cycling*) got him a TdF. Seems like that worked and was sufficinet in cycling terms. Not too many win the TdF

*I guess it means not relying on cycling computers and power meters.

Old school maybe got him TdF, but it was back in 2008. Times changed and cycling with them. Now it's year 2014.

It's difficult to understand what means "gut feeling" and instinct. Hrotha used term "old school" and it isn't what Quintana said so I'd better forget this term and analysing what it means or doesn't mean as it could be misleading. Quintana wasn't talking about racing and using powermeter (as Afrank and Hrotha says). He talked about training. I think it's a must to use data when you are training to see what your conditon is, to compare it with previous results so you can see where the rider is with his training. Data are used even in amateur sport to judge form. That's why I find difficult to understand to what Quintana said. It's similas situation as with Froome.

Feeling when racing is another thing. First you need to have some form than you can race with or without powermeter. If you don't have form, powermeter or not not, you won't be competitive.

 

[Afrank]

Old school means he doesn't rely completely on those little numbers on the screen to judge himself on when training. He judges his condition more by how he is feeling; I.E. did he fell really tired up that last climb and limp up it slowly or did he feel great and like he was rocketing up it. That kind of thing.

And while he doesn't say the word powermeter, the lesser reliance on powermeters is what he is talking about when he says "more then data." And like Beech Mtn pointed out, this doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't use the data at all, he just doesn't rely on it. Doesn't keep his eyes on that screen to make sure his watts stay the same the whole way up a climb.

The basic premise of what he said is; when training, instead of focusing on keeping a specific numbers for watts or heart rate (the data), he focuses on how the legs are feeling.

 

[Kokoso]

Old school means he doesn't rely completely on those little numbers on the screen to judge himself on when training. He judges his condition more by how he is feeling; I.E. did he fell really tired up that last climb and limp up it slowly or did he feel great and like he was rocketing up it. That kind of thing.

And while he doesn't say the word powermeter, the lesser reliance on powermeters is what he is talking about when he says "more then data." And like Beech Mtn pointed out, this doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't use the data at all, he just doesn't rely on it. Doesn't keep his eyes on that screen to make sure his watts stay the same the whole way up a climb.

The basic premise of what he said is; when training, instead of focusing on keeping a specific numbers for watts or heart rate (the data), he focuses on how the legs are feeling.

So if it's this, his words definitely sound strange.

It would be good if there is some solution for training in places such as Colombia, Siberia or Anctartica. Forbid it completely would one such solution. Or sanction it somehow. I know that it's somebody's home but it's also risky and easy to dope place.

 

[Afrank]

I still don't see how it's strange in any way, but whatever.

While it can be easier to dope in some places then others. There really isn't anything that can be done to stop riders from training in certain places. And it would be frankly ridiculous IMO to try to do so. You can't just say to a rider your no longer allowed to go to this area of the world, especially if the area in question is the riders home.

Better bet is to aim at increasing the number of out of competition tests, especially in those areas.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Old school maybe got him TdF, but it was back in 2008. Times changed and cycling with them.

Not really, no.

 

[Kokoso]

Not really, no.

On the contrary, definetely, yes.

 

[meat puppet]

power meters were pretty mainstream in 2008 among pros and "innovative" racers used them back in the 1990s already. some even while racing (bjarnes amstel 1997 comes to mind).

also measuring one's effort and overall training load has been the bread and butter of this sport from the get go, so I wouldn't exactly go on to say that super drastic changes have occurred since 2008 in terms of training management

submitting to this line of argumentation is basically buying the whole marginal gains BS package, though perhaps without using the trademarked term per se.

 

[gmedina]

So if it's this, his words definitely sound strange.

It would be good if there is some solution for training in places such as Colombia, Siberia or Anctartica. Forbid it completely would one such solution. Or sanction it somehow. I know that it's somebody's home but it's also risky and easy to dope place.

Hahaha...why would you place Colombia in the same list as Siberia or Anctartica???? Colombia is not a place that is hard to get to, it just needs more tests. And it seems that there are enough Colombian riders in the pro peloton to warrant an approved lab there, and guess what, there is one accredited lab now!

And in all seriousness, since when have tests have stopped people from doping? Most of the doping scandals have occurred in Europe, and by everyone's logic here, Europe should be the cleanest place since it has more tests. Also, how about the lack of testing in North America like in the US Pro Cycling challenge etc.

Let's get real people, tests have not deterred riders from doping, what is going on in this thread is a little bit of a witch hunt (specially, people now talking about Quintana...really??? bs imo)

 

[Dear Wiggo]

On the contrary, definetely, yes.

Name one way it's changed since 2008. Just one.

If you don't know your own body, or need a power meter to train, it has nothing to do with an elite professional cyclist.

He probably has a coach guiding his training. And a tonne of other support around him - physio, masseur, nutrionist, etc.

Power meters, IMO, take away as much as they add when it comes to training and even more when it comes to racing.

 

[Afrank]

Name one way it's changed since 2008. Just one.

If you don't know your own body, or need a power meter to train, it has nothing to do with an elite professional cyclist.

He probably has a coach guiding his training. And a tonne of other support around him - physio, masseur, nutrionist, etc.

Power meters, IMO, take away as much as they add when it comes to training and even more when it comes to racing.

Most definitely, +1 to bolded.

+100 to underlined!

 

[Angliru]

So if it's this, his words definitely sound strange.

It would be good if there is some solution for training in places such as Colombia, Siberia or Anctartica. Forbid it completely would one such solution. Or sanction it somehow. I know that it's somebody's home but it's also risky and easy to dope place.

How would you go about disallowing someone from training in their home country? Or even worse how could you justify sanctioning someone for training in their home country? That would mean absolutely no time on the bike when spending time at home. Doesn't sound practical or based in reality.

 

[del1962]

Name one way it's changed since 2008. Just one.

If you don't know your own body, or need a power meter to train, it has nothing to do with an elite professional cyclist.

He probably has a coach guiding his training. And a tonne of other support around him - physio, masseur, nutrionist, etc.

Power meters, IMO, take away as much as they add when it comes to training and even more when it comes to racing.

I don't understand how a power meter takes away as much as they add in training and if they are available in races then why not use it to guage your effort. Going just by feeling is often unreliable.

 

[Kokoso]

power meters were pretty mainstream in 2008 among pros and "innovative" racers used them back in the 1990s already. some even while racing (bjarnes amstel 1997 comes to mind).

also measuring one's effort and overall training load has been the bread and butter of this sport from the get go, so I wouldn't exactly go on to say that super drastic changes have occurred since 2008 in terms of training management

submitting to this line of argumentation is basically buying the whole marginal gains BS package, though perhaps without using the trademarked term per se.

Merito of the thing isn't exactly about what was or wasn't in 2008 or 2014 and argumentation isn't about if powermeters were or weren't used in 2008.
Anyway, if it's true what you say then Quintana's words sound maybe even stranger.
You just can't train relying on your instinct and gut feeling I think.

 

[Kokoso]

Hahaha...why would you place Colombia in the same list as Siberia or Anctartica???? Colombia is not a place that is hard to get to, it just needs more tests. And it seems that there are enough Colombian riders in the pro peloton to warrant an approved lab there, and guess what, there is one accredited lab now!

And in all seriousness, since when have tests have stopped people from doping? Most of the doping scandals have occurred in Europe, and by everyone's logic here, Europe should be the cleanest place since it has more tests. Also, how about the lack of testing in North America like in the US Pro Cycling challenge etc.

Let's get real people, tests have not deterred riders from doping, what is going on in this thread is a little bit of a witch hunt (specially, people now talking about Quintana...really??? bs imo)

You can add Colombia to the same list as Antarctica or Siberia when criterium is amount of doping tests. Because there aren't any. Siberia isn't place where it's hard to get, btw.
Most of the scandals occure in Europe because most of the riders are training in Europe and most of the tests are done in Europe. How can you have positive test in Colombia when there is no testing? It's logical. That doping scandals occure is proving nothing. You don't stop everybody with testing, but you can stop some of them. So it isn't witch hunting at all.

 

[Kokoso]

Name one way it's changed since 2008. Just one.

If you don't know your own body, or need a power meter to train, it has nothing to do with an elite professional cyclist.

He probably has a coach guiding his training. And a tonne of other support around him - physio, masseur, nutrionist, etc.

Power meters, IMO, take away as much as they add when it comes to training and even more when it comes to racing.

Powermeters and computer analysis are used more. For the one thing. And the last thing about powermeters sounds like nonsense, even if Afrank is totally satisfied with that using bold characters... Why would that be so?
Yeah, you can't forbid someone to visit his home, that's true.

 

[gmedina]

You can add Colombia to the same list as Antarctica or Siberia when criterium is amount of doping tests. Because there aren't any. Siberia isn't place where it's hard to get, btw.
Most of the scandals occure in Europe because most of the riders are training in Europe and most of the tests are done in Europe. How can you have positive test in Colombia when there is no testing? It's logical. That doping scandals occure is proving nothing. You don't stop everybody with testing, but you can stop some of them. So it isn't witch hunting at all.

Ok, stop spreading non-sense about the no testing in Colombia. There is not a lot of out of competition testing, but there is testing for competitions held in Colombia. Let's take a look at page 68 here: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/R...012-Anti-Doping-Testing-Figures-Report-EN.pdf
It seems that Colombia does have IC and OOC test since 2012...so going by your logic, should I accuse Kwiatkowski and/or Sagan of doping for being from a countries (Poland and Slovakia) that have even less tests that Colombia? No! So, no, Colombia should not be in the same category as Siberia and Antarctica.....so again, stop spreading mis-information.

Also, remember the teams where some of the Colombians came from (like Quintana, Uran, Chavez), those teams (i.e. Colombia es Pasion, 4-72, Colderportes) are teams that have their own internal testing. There is a reason why those successful Colombians are where they are right now: they had been tested, and had a bio passport (unlike many other local Colombians which dope but never make it out of there). So, yes there is testing, and it is getting better but people like you fail to see it. And I consider this a witchhunt, specially to someone like Quintana that so far has given anyone any reason to think he is doping....

 

[roundabout]

What value was their "bio passport" when there was no accredited lab in Colombia at the time? Do you really think that they shipped the samples to SLC?

 

[gmedina]

What value was their "bio passport" when there was no accredited lab in Colombia at the time? Do you really think that they shipped the samples to SLC?

no accredited labs, but im pretty sure labs in Colombia are reliable to be able to handle testing. and what value? well, apparently, it had enough value for pro teams to be able to give young Colombian riders contracts (vs other Colombians from teams without internal testing). And so far, there is no prove that the likes of Quintana, Uran, Chavez, Atapuma, Anacona, Arredondo etc are doping. There is Henao, but not even the UCI seems interested in pursuing w/e anomalies were found in his passport....so what do we make out of that? Is that enough to judge every single rider from Colombia, and question why they go to their own home country to train?
(also, remember, Colombia has a rich history of producing great climbers like Lucho Herrera...so till today, Colombians have been good at what they are good at: Climbing....nothing else)

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

no accredited labs, but im pretty sure labs in Colombia are reliable to be able to handle testing. and what value? well, apparently, it had enough value for pro teams to be able to give young Colombian riders contracts (vs other Colombians from teams without internal testing). And so far, there is no prove that the likes of Quintana, Uran, Chavez, Atapuma, Anacona, Arredondo etc are doping. There is Henao, but not even the UCI seems interested in pursuing w/e anomalies were found in his passport....so what do we make out of that? Is that enough to judge every single rider from Colombia, and question why they go to their own home country to train?
(also, remember, Colombia has a rich history of producing great climbers like Lucho Herrera...so till today, Colombians have been good at what they are good at: Climbing....nothing else)

I agree. Powermeters suddenly made Columbian cyclists again a cycling nation to be proud of.

Too bad the Dutch and the Belgiums and the French are so stupid.

I also love fairytales.

 

[Ferminal]

Quintana doesn't need a computer to tell him when to rotate injection sites. Sticking a needle in your arm/**** is more oldschool than fancy gadgets and faddy training programs.

Still, doping without science is worthless.

 

[Kokoso]

Ok, stop spreading non-sense about the no testing in Colombia. There is not a lot of out of competition testing, but there is testing for competitions held in Colombia. Let's take a look at page 68 here: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/R...012-Anti-Doping-Testing-Figures-Report-EN.pdf
It seems that Colombia does have IC and OOC test since 2012...so going by your logic, should I accuse Kwiatkowski and/or Sagan of doping for being from a countries (Poland and Slovakia) that have even less tests that Colombia? No! So, no, Colombia should not be in the same category as Siberia and Antarctica.....so again, stop spreading mis-information.

Also, remember the teams where some of the Colombians came from (like Quintana, Uran, Chavez), those teams (i.e. Colombia es Pasion, 4-72, Colderportes) are teams that have their own internal testing. There is a reason why those successful Colombians are where they are right now: they had been tested, and had a bio passport (unlike many other local Colombians which dope but never make it out of there). So, yes there is testing, and it is getting better but people like you fail to see it. And I consider this a witchhunt, specially to someone like Quintana that so far has given anyone any reason to think he is doping....

Ok, there is total lack of testing. And considering there wasn't any acredited lab - it's almost like if there is no testing in fact.
If we want to be accurate, better part od Siberia is in Russia where is testing So really I maybe shouldn't compare Colombia and Siberia... You have to understand that it was hyperbole.
So, no, definitely, it isn'z witchhunt. And don't distort my words please, I've never accused Quintana of doping. I'm just saying that his words sounds strange and that's all. That Colombia is better place to dope than others is different thing.

 

[Franklin]

oh how convenient for you "believers"

also low amounts of testing doesn't equal extra doping use. just look at japanese keirin scene for an extreme example

Oh yes, "The Japanese don't use ever". Remember how I torched that one with research from Japanese professors.... after which you ducked and run from commenting as it destroyed yet another of your bizarre notions about countries you have absolutely no clue about?

You are so amusing in your cultural delusions.Every time it's goes square against facts yet it's is so set in you that you just deny the facts.

Japanese dope. Colombians dope. Belgians dope. Italians dope. Kenyans dope.

Culture has never been particularly good in stopping vice and crime.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Warming up this thread with a great interview.

http://www.alpsandes.com/posts/2015/2/17/juan-pablo-villegas

From the way it's written the dirty teams wanted the clean program to end. No wonder the sport is such a joke.

Those member federations at the UCI are a total mess.

 

[sniper]

whatever came of this?

Asked about rumours that two unnamed Colombian riders had also returned positive A samples for GW501516, Devra Pitt G?taz clarified that the UCI ?has not opened any procedure against any Columbian riders for this substance.?

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...om-same-BCR-Pizza-Hut-team.aspx#ixzz3SHQ1BdsE

 

[neineinei]

There is one Colombian GW501516 positive on UCI's provisional suspension list; Marlon Alirio Perez Arango. The positive is from 19 December 2012. When he was at the Vuelta Internacional a Costa Rica 2012, just like the 4 Costa Ricans.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/...0141223ProvisionalSuspensionEN2.0_English.pdf