Clean Colombians? (Arkea investigation page 27)

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gospina said:
You misinterpret what Ryo is saying. Not sure if you are doing it on purpose or not. He has defended MOST colombians. He has said that some probably doped, like Botero and Victor Hugo Peña. No one has talked too much about Ardila, but probably doped because of his association with Dennis Menchov.
Ryo has stated before that some current riders can be seen as suspect, like Betancur and Duarte. Duarte, do to a previous issue, Betancur, mostly do to attitude.
He has been very defensive of Quintana, Henao, Uran and others. Chaves is from the same school, so makes sense to defend.
I'll exclude Henao from that list IMHO. I believe he is talented for other reasons that I don't want to mention here, but his close relatioship with Botero is very damning.
 
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Can those claiming Colombians are clean tell those who are planning to take action against Largo Quintero after he returned an adverse analytical finding in an out-of-competition test. He was suspended by his team pending further action. It is just a mistake. He is clean i tell you.
 
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Benotti69 said:
Can those claiming Colombians are clean tell those who are planning to take action against Largo Quintero after he returned an adverse analytical finding in an out-of-competition test. He was suspended by his team pending further action. It is just a mistake. He is clean i tell you.
People are here defending the general statement that all riders from a specific country are all dirty riders. People are defending riders that have NEVER been suspected of cheating. Somehow, your made the jump that someone who came up with a suspected result is suspended falls in that category and will be defended. No one made that claim, no one even hinted to defend such a test.
Henao's case is unique and has its own forum. Other riders, like Uran, Nairo, Betancur, Sarmiento, Anacona, Acevedo, Arredondo, Serpa, etc... are being defended, and rightfully so.
What are your thoughts on Taylor Phinney? He hung out with Levi, was in Lance's farm team, was part of USA cycling when it was ran by dopers, etc..
His dad raced, therefore knew about doping. His mother is an olympian, so probably exposed to doping. I can give you a list of american known dopers. Hamilton, Landis...Hincapie is partly colombian, so I guess he taints both US and Colombia. Is Taylor Phinney a doper? Or to stay in topic more, Ben King. Ben King is having a great season, arguably his best since winning the US nationals. He is climbing great and is now riding with Garmin, a supposedly dope-free environment.
He did spend most of the winter in Colombia with Acevedo. Now, do to lack of OOC testing, is he a doper? does that explain this season or is the altitude have anything to do with it?
 
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gospina said:
People are here defending the general statement that all riders from a specific country are all dirty riders. People are defending riders that have NEVER been suspected of cheating. Somehow, your made the jump that someone who came up with a suspected result is suspended falls in that category and will be defended. No one made that claim, no one even hinted to defend such a test.
Henao's case is unique and has its own forum. Other riders, like Uran, Nairo, Betancur, Sarmiento, Anacona, Acevedo, Arredondo, Serpa, etc... are being defended, and rightfully so.
The idea that Colombians have more morals than the rest of the cycling world is for the birds.

gospina said:
What are your thoughts on Taylor Phinney? He hung out with Levi, was in Lance's farm team, was part of USA cycling when it was ran by dopers, etc..
His dad raced, therefore knew about doping. His mother is an olympian, so probably exposed to doping. I can give you a list of american known dopers. Hamilton, Landis...Hincapie is partly colombian, so I guess he taints both US and Colombia. Is Taylor Phinney a doper? Or to stay in topic more, Ben King. Ben King is having a great season, arguably his best since winning the US nationals. He is climbing great and is now riding with Garmin, a supposedly dope-free environment.
He did spend most of the winter in Colombia with Acevedo. Now, do to lack of OOC testing, is he a doper? does that explain this season or is the altitude have anything to do with it?
Phinney is a doper.
 
The idea that those who attack some riders or the antidoping practices of their countries must be blind to the possibility of others (specifically, riders from their same country) doping doesn't have a lot of merit, so I'd advise you to drop it.
 
Benotti69 said:
The idea that Colombians have more morals than the rest of the cycling world is for the birds.
Is not about morality at all- It has to do with the way the cyclists there are brought up to the sport: The majority of them come from farming/agriculture families with no funds to support their sons sporting career-so that means they have to train very early in the morning-4:30 to 7:00 AM, then carry on to either work on the farm or attend school, and afterwards "earn a living/helping their parents with labor". meanwhile, the kids may attempt to compete here & there on the local races "just to get an sponsor's attention" so they can at least "buy proper equipment"-best case-the sponsor might take care of the expenses of racing-but no salary at all.
you see- those kids don't even have money to even buy a decent bicycle and an uniform to begin with- let alone buying dope or having the "knowledge of doping" at that stage.

The approach & introduction to doping in Colombia happens when those few very talented riders already in the Professional ranks get enough attention from the "usual suspects" (Raul Mesa, Botero, all the "paisa mafia", Cycling Federation along with some "dirty Old school riders" with European experience & nonetheless the infamous Oscar "babyface" Sevilla) running the sport there, start to "emphasize" the need of doping if they're pursuing a career in Europe, so they need to start getting accustomed to it. I'm sure those guys I mentioned have the "system" and the "know how" and most of all-the "means" to get the dope for the riders, in exchange for a commission/percentage in their contracts, as soon as the transition is made. Remember: these kids are coming from poverty and they're convinced by those crooks to do it as "the only path" to achieve results/make money...

The big difference here is that Colombian riders are brought up "clean" and the majority stay "clean" because there is no real "doping culture" in their environment in order to "sustain/embrace it at all to begin with, whereas the European & American counterparts already have both available in the very early stages-"the cultural acceptance & the money" to execute it.

I hope this clarifies a bit why beyond all the current events & conspiracy theories out there-The Colombian riders pride and remain always "CLEAN-ER" than their counterparts around the world :)
 
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hfer07 said:
Is not about morality at all- It has to do with the way the cyclists there are brought up to the sport: The majority of them come from farming/agriculture families with no funds to support their sons sporting career-so that means they have to train very early in the morning-4:30 to 7:00 AM, then carry on to either work on the farm or attend school, and afterwards "earn a living/helping their parents with labor". meanwhile, the kids may attempt to compete here & there on the local races "just to get an sponsor's attention" so they can at least "buy proper equipment"-best case-the sponsor might take care of the expenses of racing-but no salary at all.
you see- those kids don't even have money to even buy a decent bicycle and an uniform to begin with- let alone buying dope or having the "knowledge of doping" at that stage.

The approach & introduction to doping in Colombia happens when those few very talented riders already in the Professional ranks get enough attention from the "usual suspects" (Raul Mesa, Botero, all the "paisa mafia", Cycling Federation along with some "dirty Old school riders" with European experience & nonetheless the infamous Oscar "babyface" Sevilla) running the sport there, start to "emphasize" the need of doping if they're pursuing a career in Europe, so they need to start getting accustomed to it. I'm sure those guys I mentioned have the "system" and the "know how" and most of all-the "means" to get the dope for the riders, in exchange for a commission/percentage in their contracts, as soon as the transition is made. Remember: these kids are coming from poverty and they're convinced by those crooks to do it as "the only path" to achieve results/make money...

The big difference here is that Colombian riders are brought up "clean" and the majority stay "clean" because there is no real "doping culture" in their environment in order to "sustain/embrace it at all to begin with, whereas the European & American counterparts already have both available in the very early stages-"the cultural acceptance & the money" to execute it.

I hope this clarifies a bit why beyond all the current events & conspiracy theories out there-The Colombian riders pride and remain always "CLEAN-ER" than their counterparts around the world :)

CleanER = doping.

When Obree was told he would have to dope in the European peloton and he refused he was sent packing. I guess that still goes for the majority of riders. The exception being where a rider shows he can do his job without doping, but they would be an exception to the rule and they would have to fight hard to get the opportunity to show they can do it without doping.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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hfer07 said:
Is not about morality at all- It has to do with the way the cyclists there are brought up to the sport: The majority of them come from farming/agriculture families with no funds to support their sons sporting career-so that means they have to train very early in the morning-4:30 to 7:00 AM, then carry on to either work on the farm or attend school, and afterwards "earn a living/helping their parents with labor". meanwhile, the kids may attempt to compete here & there on the local races "just to get an sponsor's attention" so they can at least "buy proper equipment"-best case-the sponsor might take care of the expenses of racing-but no salary at all.
you see- those kids don't even have money to even buy a decent bicycle and an uniform to begin with- let alone buying dope or having the "knowledge of doping" at that stage.

The approach & introduction to doping in Colombia happens when those few very talented riders already in the Professional ranks get enough attention from the "usual suspects" (Raul Mesa, Botero, all the "paisa mafia", Cycling Federation along with some "dirty Old school riders" with European experience & nonetheless the infamous Oscar "babyface" Sevilla) running the sport there, start to "emphasize" the need of doping if they're pursuing a career in Europe, so they need to start getting accustomed to it. I'm sure those guys I mentioned have the "system" and the "know how" and most of all-the "means" to get the dope for the riders, in exchange for a commission/percentage in their contracts, as soon as the transition is made. Remember: these kids are coming from poverty and they're convinced by those crooks to do it as "the only path" to achieve results/make money...

The big difference here is that Colombian riders are brought up "clean" and the majority stay "clean" because there is no real "doping culture" in their environment in order to "sustain/embrace it at all to begin with, whereas the European & American counterparts already have both available in the very early stages-"the cultural acceptance & the money" to execute it.

I hope this clarifies a bit why beyond all the current events & conspiracy theories out there-The Colombian riders pride and remain always "CLEAN-ER" than their counterparts around the world :)
most riders are brought up clean yes. but so are they in teh rest of the world. there's no difference and colombia's domestic (youth) cycling is very much doped, although it is improving. for instance training under certain junior clubs and trainers they will give a young rider doping saying "hey but cardenas uses this too and he won vuelta colombia." these things happen all the time and it takes strong personalities to stay clear of this of which quintana, chaves and some others are prime examples of. and in europe there is no room for doping anymore so those willing to go to europe go that route. ironically the reason colombian cycling disapeared in the 90s is now the reason why many colombian youngsters have a hard time getting into europe and coldeportes.
 
gmedina said:
the amount of stupidity in this thread is too damn high!

there are far more suspicious riders in the peloton, but nah, this thread is all about how ALL Colombians dope because they go and train in their home country...I mean how dare they....either Colombian riders should not go back Colombia, or pay up for their own OCT so the clinic is happy!!!

the day i see Colombians killing it in the 40kms+ ITTs <cough>contador/froome</cough>, that day i'll be coming back and taking all ive said in the thread back. (and yeah, quintana did beat contador at TA, in an ITT of 9.2km, about 10 min all out effort, in which contador had the 1st place wrapped with a 2min gap).
<cough> Botero <cough>
 
perico said:
<cough> Botero <cough>
as I said in my original comment, Colombians in plural....Botero probably did doped, and is probably the only Colombian that excelled in the ITT.
Also my comment was for new generation of Colombians, if i see Uran/Quintana/Chavez/Atapuma etc etc killing it in an ITT longer than 40kms, it probably does mean that they are onto something...
 
Mar 31, 2010
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gmedina said:
as I said in my original comment, Colombians in plural....Botero probably did doped, and is probably the only Colombian that excelled in the ITT.
Also my comment was for new generation of Colombians, if i see Uran/Quintana/Chavez/Atapuma etc etc killing it in an ITT longer than 40kms, it probably does mean that they are onto something...
what the hell does itt'ing have to do with it? there are examples of lighter guys excelling a alot in itt. expect quintana to do really well. he will probably become the best -60/55 kg itt rider ever
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
most riders are brought up clean yes. but so are they in teh rest of the world.
To be clear, this certainly is not the situation in the U.S. If you win in the U.S. it is okay to dope.... Until it isn't. When is that? It seems to vary. Are there clean/clean-ish American riders? Absolutely. I realize that's not a clear picture like a history book, but that's the way it is.
 
hfer07 said:
I hope this clarifies a bit why beyond all the current events & conspiracy theories out there-The Colombian riders pride and remain always "CLEAN-ER" than their counterparts around the world :)
Except the situation with generally impoverished riders is not too far off the for some riders in the American system. They train, go to school/work, and train some more with the aim to get to the next level. Yes, general living conditions are different, but the development conditions for some in cycling is not. For others in the U.S., the bank of mom and dad allow little JV1973's the privilege of living well and pursuing their ambitions.

Also, the Colombian cycling blog had a detailed story about a journalist asking around about doping and being sent to bike shops for the PED's. Finally, many PED's that really work aren't expensive or complicated to administer and certainly seem available in Colombia. As a broad idea, this notion that PED's are expensive/complicated needs to end.

All that said, are the elite Colombian riders clean-ish? Maybe. Most of them have very consistent performances, the opposite of the effects of old-school EPO cycles.
 
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DirtyWorks said:
To be clear, this certainly is not the situation in the U.S. If you win in the U.S. it is okay to dope.... Until it isn't. When is that? It seems to vary. Are there clean/clean-ish American riders? Absolutely. I realize that's not a clear picture like a history book, but that's the way it is.
I'm certain american cyclists aren't doping until much later ages. american domestic pro scene in general is very clean anyway
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
I'm certain american cyclists aren't doping until much later ages. american domestic pro scene in general is very clean anyway
Oh really?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dope-and-glory-10-04-2001/
Carmichael dopes teenagers.

Thom Wiesel and Steve Johnson are still running the federation DESPERATELY seeking another Lance Armstrong. Wiesel, the owner of an IOC sanctioned sports federation is quoted as supporting doping.

Again, are their clean American riders? Yes, for sure. That's not the same as your gloriously optimistic claim.
 
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DirtyWorks said:
Oh really?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dope-and-glory-10-04-2001/
Carmichael dopes teenagers.

Thom Wiesel and Steve Johnson are still running the federation DESPERATELY seeking another Lance Armstrong. Wiesel, the owner of an IOC sanctioned sports federation is quoted as supporting doping.

Again, are their clean American riders? Yes, for sure. That's not the same as your gloriously optimistic claim.
lol @ that article that proves nothing and even if it proves anything it proves one rider yet you magically jump to conclusion that most american juniors are doping.
 
May 26, 2010
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Ryo Hazuki said:
I'm certain american cyclists aren't doping until much later ages. american domestic pro scene in general is very clean anyway
Since you are certain, it must mean you have proof.

Are the people who enabled the young Armstrong, Hincapie, Hamilton, Danielson, Hesjedal and others gone from the sport?
 
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Benotti69 said:
Since you are certain, it must mean you have proof.

Are the people who enabled the young Armstrong, Hincapie, Hamilton, Danielson, Hesjedal and others gone from the sport?
yes I have tons of proof. stories form riders I have reason to believe, like gregory brenes
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
I'm certain american cyclists aren't doping until much later ages. american domestic pro scene in general is very clean anyway
at the NRC season opener, Redlands, in the first 3 stages USADA tested:

stage 1: 0 riders
stage 2: 1 rider (stage winner/gc leader*)
stage 3: 3 riders (stage winner/gc leader** + 2 randoms)
stage 4-5: I was DNF at this point so I didn't find out

so 4/202 riders tested over 3 stages --- sleep well tonight; the scene is surely clean as a whistle! edit: also the winner came from the Hincapie team.

*doper Tom Zirbel
**sprinter Travis McCabe
 

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