Clean Colombians? (Arkea investigation page 27)

[Catwhoorg]

I wouldn't personally vouch for anyone in any endurance sport where there was zero (or near zero) OOC bio passport samples taken/tested.

 

[gospina]

He's probably talking about Ryo's claim about no physical gain with doping.

Just to clarify, and to make sure we understand the background,
The claim was that Blood Doping, specifically EPO will not benefit MOST colombians. Other possible doping that won't benefit MOST colombians are anything that simulates oxygen deprivation.
In that list, we include anyone that lives in high altitude. Near Bogota, Medellin, Tunja, etc...

Other types of doping (Steroids, drugs that make you thinner, make your muscle/fat ratio increase, etc...) are all fair game.
Someone like Nairo, like Chavez, are already small. Henao, Betancur, Uran, a bit bigger.

 

[gmedina]

the amount of stupidity in this thread is too damn high!

there are far more suspicious riders in the peloton, but nah, this thread is all about how ALL Colombians dope because they go and train in their home country...I mean how dare they....either Colombian riders should not go back Colombia, or pay up for their own OCT so the clinic is happy!!!

the day i see Colombians killing it in the 40kms+ ITTs <cough>contador/froome</cough>, that day i'll be coming back and taking all ive said in the thread back. (and yeah, quintana did beat contador at TA, in an ITT of 9.2km, about 10 min all out effort, in which contador had the 1st place wrapped with a 2min gap).

 

[gmedina]

I wouldn't personally vouch for anyone in any endurance sport where there was zero (or near zero) OOC bio passport samples taken/tested.

hmm...you realize that Colombians also train in other countries in which they might get OOC tested too...right? Just look at Team Colombia, last year they spent lots of time in Italy before the Giro. Quintana has been training in Italy as well, but no, no one thinks about that.
so, yeah, Colombians go back to their country, to bag blood, then to bring in a plane, through customs and everything, so they can use it during a GT....yeah that makes a lot of sense.

 

[hrotha]

Just to clarify, and to make sure we understand the background,
The claim was that Blood Doping, specifically EPO will not benefit MOST colombians. Other possible doping that won't benefit MOST colombians are anything that simulates oxygen deprivation.
In that list, we include anyone that lives in high altitude. Near Bogota, Medellin, Tunja, etc...

You're making a basic mistake: blood doping DOES benefit Colombians and anyone with naturally high hematocrits. For example, by making sure it doesn't decrease during a GT.

Do they get less of a boost? Yes. Do they still get a boost? Absolutely. How significant is it compared to a clean rider? Hard to say.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Wait what? Movistar?

You know Valverde rides for them, right?

Valverde is the proof the ABP works. Conti too by the way.

Spanish dont dope.

 

[gospina]

You're making a basic mistake: blood doping DOES benefit Colombians and anyone with naturally high hematocrits. For example, by making sure it doesn't decrease during a GT.

Do they get less of a boost? Yes. Do they still get a boost? Absolutely. How significant is it compared to a clean rider? Hard to say.

Very valid point. I do think that in this case of Colombians doping, going back to the point I was making, was based on the assumption that there was no OOC testing in Colombia and was speaking about OOC training. GTs are in competition.

 

[Escarabajo]

the amount of stupidity in this thread is too damn high!

there are far more suspicious riders in the peloton, but nah, this thread is all about how ALL Colombians dope because they go and train in their home country...I mean how dare they....either Colombian riders should not go back Colombia, or pay up for their own OCT so the clinic is happy!!!

the day i see Colombians killing it in the 40kms+ ITTs <cough>contador/froome</cough>, that day i'll be coming back and taking all ive said in the thread back. (and yeah, quintana did beat contador at TA, in an ITT of 9.2km, about 10 min all out effort, in which contador had the 1st place wrapped with a 2min gap).

You might be getting a little emotional about this. Maybe you are better off defending just Quintana or some other rider. I think there has been a lot of doping in the Colombian scene.

I think hrotha is right. As I said they get less boost than others for the higher hematocrit and small muscular size. But it is still a boost. Especially during a 3 week race tour when all parameters tend to decrease over time.

 

[gmedina]

You might be getting a little emotional about this. Maybe you are better off defending just Quintana or some other rider. I think there has been a lot of doping in the Colombian scene.

I think hrotha is right. As I said they get less boost than others for the higher hematocrit and small muscular size. But it is still a boost. Especially during a 3 week race tour when all parameters tend to decrease over time.

i just think this thread is unfair to Colombians like Quintana/Uran/Chavez and other ones...even Henao (we still don't know if he did or did not dope).

and about the OOC tests not being done in Colombia....why would any one in Colombia pay for a full established OOC test program for cycling in the late 90s/2000s??? There were only a handful on Colombians back then, so maybe it wasn't worth the cost (a huge lab to support less than 10 riders??). Also, I bet no country/race organizer would waste money on doing OOC tests in not pro teams (i.e. like the ones that race in La Vuelta a Colombia and El Clasico RCN).
Nowadays, there is way more Colombians in the pro peloton (just think Team Colombian and EPM). So, low and behold, there are OOC tests being performed there! (also do not forget these teams have their own biopassport program) So, if anything this is a step in the right direction! But, everyone here is so cynical and just screams "Quintana went to Colombia to train, oh he is a doper"...bunch of bS.

 

[Sjoerdeman]

LOL @ this. Nobody thinks their guys dope.

Brits: Our guys don't dope.
Colombians: Our guys don't dope.
Americans: Our guys don't dope.
Spanish: Our guys don't test positive.

Brits: Our guys don't dope; we are from the superior British Ethical sort. We are too good with ethics to dope like all other inferior-ethical, non-British sportspeople do.

Colombians: Our guys don't dope. We wish we could, but can't afford it.

Americans: Our guys don't dope. And if they do, it's only because all you dirty Europeans started it first.

Spanish: Our guys don't test positive. And if they do, we'll make sure the law says they haven't.

Australians: Our guys don't dope. And if they do, they only did it once and they didn't do so when they won.

Germans: Our guys don't dope. And if they do, we'll ignore them and not broadcast them on TV anymore.

Italians: Our guys don't dope. And if they do, they probably didn't mean to, so we'll just send them off for a month, symbolically.

Dutch: Our guys don't dope. Especially not our ice skaters. Really.

French: Our guys don't win. Except the attentionwh0re with Tourette, and he's probably acting like that because he dopes.

 

[TomasC]

It's true. As a colombian, I can tell you that we don't dope. In fact, we don't take drugs. Unfortunately, we only traffic drugs from other countries and it flows through Colombia. Bad reputation, but its true. I will never need to take Viagra, for instance, nor "product enhancement" creams. Only bocadillo, agua panela & bandeja paisa is needed. The real Colombian weapon? pecueca.

If your real weapon is pecueca, you are probably right you won't have any use for Viagra

 

[hrotha]

Very valid point. I do think that in this case of Colombians doping, going back to the point I was making, was based on the assumption that there was no OOC testing in Colombia and was speaking about OOC training. GTs are in competition.

OOC, blood doping can still boost your training by helping your recovery.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

OOC, blood doping can still boost your training by helping your recovery.

and colombian wt riders injecting themselves ricco style in colombia yeah right

 

[hrotha]

and colombian wt riders injecting themselves ricco style in colombia yeah right

So there are no doctors in Colombia?

Regardless, that wasn't the point. The point was simply that doping OOC also helps, and that therefore there's a strong incentive to dope OOC, and thus that not having OOC tests in a particular country really makes the odds of having a clean peloton much smaller.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

So there are no doctors in Colombia?

Regardless, that wasn't the point. The point was simply that doping OOC also helps, and that therefore there's a strong incentive to dope OOC, and thus that not having OOC tests in a particular country really makes the odds of having a clean peloton much smaller.

Travelling between continents so often can only have negative effects. Jet-lag, increased risk in illness, constantly adjusting to different food situations etc etc etc.

Adding unnecessary inter-continental travel on top of the typical training/racing load is odd.

Horner does the same thing. Flies to Europe for 3 weeks of racing and then...back to the States. It makes no sense.

 

[gmedina]

Travelling between continents so often can only have negative effects. Jet-lag, increased risk in illness, constantly adjusting to different food situations etc etc etc.

Adding unnecessary inter-continental travel on top of the typical training/racing load is odd.

Horner does the same thing. Flies to Europe for 3 weeks of racing and then...back to the States. It makes no sense.

how is it odd??? THINK ABOUT IT!!! Family, friends, you said yourself FOOD, language, weather...the list goes on and on!!! It is not odd, specially at the end of the season....jebus...think before posting!

 

[gmedina]

So there are no doctors in Colombia?

Regardless, that wasn't the point. The point was simply that doping OOC also helps, and that therefore there's a strong incentive to dope OOC, and thus that not having OOC tests in a particular country really makes the odds of having a clean peloton much smaller.

then again, why Colombia would have OOC tests if the number of pro peloton riders in late 90s/2000s was just a handful....who would invest in lab if there was no need for it? Now, there is a need (more than 20 colombians in the pro peloton) so now there is a need, and there is a lab in bogota now...who would have thought!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

then again, why Colombia would have OOC tests if the number of pro peloton riders in late 90s/2000s was just a handful....who would invest in lab if there was no need for it? Now, there is a need (more than 20 colombians in the pro peloton) so now there is a need, and there is a lab in bogota now...who would have thought!

Is cycling the only sport in Colombia? I would have thought running and athletics (oops nearly said soccer - ok soccer since 2006) would be pretty popular and require OOC testing also?

 

[IzzyStradlin]

how is it odd??? THINK ABOUT IT!!! Family, friends, you said yourself FOOD, language, weather...the list goes on and on!!! It is not odd, specially at the end of the season....jebus...think before posting!

If your job is to be healthy and ready to race, adding extra 14-20 hour travel days throughout the season is not going to make that any easier.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Is cycling the only sport in Colombia? I would have thought running and athletics (oops nearly said soccer - ok soccer since 2006) would be pretty popular and require OOC testing also?

Keeping in mind

IOC == WADA == OOC testing.

So the olympic medals are the key indicators of the sports requiring testing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia_at_the_Olympics

2012 was an incredible year for Colombia at the olympics. Weight lifting and cycling stand out to me as ideal sports to do OOC testing for.

 

[The Hitch]

Is cycling the only sport in Colombia? I would have thought running and athletics (oops nearly said soccer - ok soccer since 2006) would be pretty popular and require OOC testing also?

Association Football is of course by far the biggest sport in Colombia, but it hasn't been very good at it, so doesn't have an international profile.

Cycling isn't big nationally, but it has tradition, is popular locally in areas cycling races reach that won't see other sports, and gets popularity from the fact that Colombians do so well at it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Pretty amazing to think Colombian Olympic athletes have never been OOC tested because there is no lab to do it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Association Football is of course by far the biggest sport in Colombia, but it hasn't been very good at it, so doesn't have an international profile.

Cycling isn't big nationally, but it has tradition, is popular locally in areas cycling races reach that won't see other sports, and gets popularity from the fact that Colombians do so well at it.

I guess what I was trying to get at is one poster saying "of course there's no lab, there's not enough cyclists!!", as if you would only get an OOC lab accredited because you had cyclists to test. There's other sports too!!

then again, why Colombia would have OOC tests if the number of pro peloton riders in late 90s/2000s was just a handful....who would invest in lab if there was no need for it? Now, there is a need (more than 20 colombians in the pro peloton) so now there is a need, and there is a lab in bogota now...who would have thought!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Pretty amazing to think Colombian Olympic athletes have never been OOC tested because there is no lab to do it.

Oh I am probably getting BP level accreditation mixed up with normal IOC testing? Is that a thing?

Or do the Colombian Olympians have a distinct advantage OOC?

 

[veganrob]

So there are no doctors in Colombia?

Regardless, that wasn't the point. The point was simply that doping OOC also helps, and that therefore there's a strong incentive to dope OOC, and thus that not having OOC tests in a particular country really makes the odds of having a clean peloton much smaller.

This is what I was thinking also. The majority of doping is taking place OOC now. If one does not have to worry about tests then it is perfect opportunity.