Cleanest tour de france?

[Anonymous]

Evans, sastre and vandevelde are riders who people on this forum think are clean(er) the most. Not saying they are but it seems that if they are they were the dragged not the dragers if you get what i'm saying.

so evans has beaten

2008 - a doped kohl, and a suspect menchov, and a post puerto valverde
2007 - Levi (who if discovery are as dirty as everyone says was not clean), and a whole host of dodgy spaniards
2006 - beaten by 3 likely dopers, but also beat menchov, two ag2r boys (who i think where doping that year),

2005 - the year i think cadel was possibly clean.. the 7 in front of him where certainly doping.. but then again, he finished in front of the two phonak boys...

cadel clean.. not convinced by any stretch of the imagination..he has beaten some good known dopers...

maybe just not taking as much as the rest of them..

 

[auscyclefan94]

so evans has beaten

2008 - a doped kohl, and a suspect menchov, and a post puerto valverde
2007 - Levi (who if discovery are as dirty as everyone says was not clean), and a whole host of dodgy spaniards
2006 - beaten by 3 likely dopers, but also beat menchov, two ag2r boys (who i think where doping that year),

2005 - the year i think cadel was possibly clean.. the 7 in front of him where certainly doping.. but then again, he finished in front of the two phonak boys...

cadel clean.. not convinced by any stretch of the imagination..he has beaten some good known dopers...

maybe just not taking as much as the rest of them..

Hey, weirder things have happened.

On a more serious note the point that i was making is that evans is seen as a clean(er) rider on htis forum compared to other riders like valverde, contador etc.

Do you want me to start on Wiggins? (I already know the anser)

 

[Ninety5rpm]

All of this means nothing to you if you believe the top 10 is dirty, but then I ask how far down does it go? noone who rides the tour? top 100?

You've got the best guys in the world finishing a 3 week race in about 90 hours of racing, thanks to the help of PEDs, and everyone else comes within 4 hours (most within 3 hours) of the leader. How the heck does anyone lose only a few hours to the best who are doping in 3 weeks without doping also?

 

[pedaling squares]

You've got the best guys in the world finishing a 3 week race in about 90 hours of racing, thanks to the help of PEDs, and everyone else comes within 4 hours (most within 3 hours) of the leader. How the heck does anyone lose only a few hours to the best who are doping in 3 weeks without doping also?

Because the peloton does not race every kilometre at top speed.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey, weirder things have happened.

On a more serious note the point that i was making is that evans is seen as a clean(er) rider on htis forum compared to other riders like valverde, contador etc.

Do you want me to start on Wiggins? (I already know the anser)

i think the er, on clean is the key...

to er is human apparently..

 

[auscyclefan94]

i think the er, on clean is the key...

to er is human apparently..

personally i think wiggins and evans are both clean. When i say they are cleaner riders, that does not mean i justify what they are doing but that they have been "dragged" into doping. if they are, i think they are doing a minimal amount of it especially in comparison to valverde or conti as evans and wiggins are both very gifted athletes.

P.S i like your tribute video to Frank, how long did it take you to make it?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

You've got the best guys in the world finishing a 3 week race in about 90 hours of racing, thanks to the help of PEDs, and everyone else comes within 4 hours (most within 3 hours) of the leader. How the heck does anyone lose only a few hours to the best who are doping in 3 weeks without doping also?

Because the peloton does not race every kilometre at top speed.

Yeah, but think of the hours of racing they do at incredible speeds in the mountains alone. How do you come in less than 20 minutes behind Contador on the Verbier clean? Yet everyone in the peloton except a handful manages to do it.

The idea that the anyone is clean in the peloton in 2009 (or 1999 or 1989 or 1979 or 1929) is naive.

 

[Frosty]

Yeah, but think of the hours of racing they do at incredible speeds in the mountains alone. How do you come in less than 20 minutes behind Contador on the Verbier clean? Yet everyone in the peloton except a handful manages to do it.

The Verbier stage was relatively flat until Verbier. So for the weakest riders in the stage it was simply a matter of drafting for the whole stage up to Verbier. The Verbier climb may be a bit of a beast but it is not as long as Ventoux, etc. It took 20 something minutes for Contador. So losing 20 minutes would be going at about half the speed of Contador.

The same goes for the stage to Andorra. Ventoux was similar in having a tough final climb, obviously it was longer than Verbier/Andorra but its a similar principle. Take it as easy as possible and try to stay with the bunch, then ride up at your own pace (or be paced by the autobus).

 

[Ninety5rpm]

The Verbier stage was relatively flat until Verbier. So for the weakest riders in the stage it was simply a matter of drafting for the whole stage up to Verbier. The Verbier climb may be a bit of a beast but it is not as long as Ventoux, etc. It took 20 something minutes for Contador. So losing 20 minutes would be going at about half the speed of Contador.

The same goes for the stage to Andorra. Ventoux was similar in having a tough final climb, obviously it was longer than Verbier/Andorra but its a similar principle. Take it as easy as possible and try to stay with the bunch, then ride up at your own pace (or be paced by the autobus).

I'm not sure, but I don't think the peloton was all together at the base of the Verbier.

At any rate, when the best of the best are doping in order to win, I don't see how the others could remain competitive (avoid DNF/DNS) without doping too.

 

[Anonymous]

P.S i like your tribute video to Frank, how long did it take you to make it?

done over two days, probably 8-10 hours in total..
a couple of hours of getting the various clips, 4-5 hours over an day/evening putting it together, editing, doing the overlays, and then probably an hour or two afterwards re-arranging some of the timings etc and correcting glitches.. probably could have done it quicker but there was a lot of rendering, looking, changing.. the second half where its colour/b&w mixed was the time consuming bit.. not perfect, theres a couple of bits i would probably change, but its one of the videos ive done that im happiest with, if it can bring a tear to my eye its doing ok...

cheers..

 

[Runitout]

personally i think wiggins and evans are both clean. When i say they are cleaner riders, that does not mean i justify what they are doing but that they have been "dragged" into doping. if they are, i think they are doing a minimal amount of it especially in comparison to valverde or conti as evans and wiggins are both very gifted athletes.

P.S i like your tribute video to Frank, how long did it take you to make it?

Two things:

*Everyone at that level is astonishingly gifted. Everyone.

*What on earth makes you think that Contador or Valverde are not as gifted as Evans or VdV? They're all great bike riders who rode for doping teams with what appear to be systematic team programs through out their careers.

Take a look at Valverde's record as a junior. His junior palmares looked like Herb Elliot's - he simply didn't lose. If there's some objective measurement you can use that says that VdV or Evans is more gifted than Valverde, I'd like to see it. 'Cos the 'wins' column doesn't favour either English speaking rider.

I can't see this as an explanation for one rider being cleaner than another. And I have seen plenty of dopers call out other dopers for doping. I can't tell which rider is doping, or how gifted he is, what his VO2 max is, by watching him on television or by the barricades. That's what WADA is supposed to be for. Until then, the preponderance of the evidence (based on high finishes vs doping cases) seems to suggest that the top riders are all doping.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Two things:

*Everyone at that level is astonishingly gifted. Everyone.

*What on earth makes you think that Contador or Valverde are not as gifted as Evans or VdV? They're all great bike riders who rode for doping teams with what appear to be systematic team programs through out their careers.

Take a look at Valverde's record as a junior. His junior palmares looked like Herb Elliot's - he simply didn't lose. If there's some objective measurement you can use that says that VdV or Evans is more gifted than Valverde, I'd like to see it. 'Cos the 'wins' column doesn't favour either English speaking rider.

I can't see this as an explanation for one rider being cleaner than another. And I have seen plenty of dopers call out other dopers for doping. I can't tell which rider is doping, or how gifted he is, what his VO2 max is, by watching him on television or by the barricades. That's what WADA is supposed to be for. Until then, the preponderance of the evidence (based on high finishes vs doping cases) seems to suggest that the top riders are all doping.

If someone is clean(er),(evans than valverde), and evans has a better track record than valv in tour races head to head , it says that evans is still a better athlete and most likely more gifted.

I personally don't think all the top riders are doped up. Logically, their would be at least some. Though in a year like 2003, i would say the opposite, due to we have had a lot of big names at the top of the sport get caught. I believe that justice will come in the end, even if you have got awaay with for 10 years (LA).

People who do good/stick by the rules, will have good come back to them and the liars and criminals in this world will get their just desserts.

 

[FastMatt]

Lance Armstrong is not my favorite rider.

With that said, I just do not understand why there are so many negative posts about him. I guess everybody hates a winner, kind of like all of the people who hate the Yankees and Patriots because they win.

He has never tested positive in any test. There are rumors that he has had positive results but, they are just that rumors. Like the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, just rumors. With all of the tests he has never had a confirmed positive result. This means only one thing to me. Either he is clean or he has found a way to dope which cannot be detected.

If Lance has discovered a way to dope without being detected then why have the other riders not used this same method? Most of the riders he has competed against have tested positive at some point over the last few years. It stands to reason that if Lance won his 7 TDF's on dope then anyone else who wins consistently must be doping, so Contador must be doping as well.

Personally I would like to see Andy Schleck win next year because I cannot stand Contador and Contador is as much of a doper as Lance is. Maybe that is why there was so much friction between AC and Lance. Lance did not want to share his wonder dope!

 

[BroDeal]

He has never tested positive in any test.

He tested positive six times for artificial EPO when his urine was retrotested. He is a doper, a liar, and a fraud.

I think 2008 may have been the cleanest recent Tour. That was the high point of the fight against doping in cycling. At the end of that year, the sport reverted back to what it was in 2005.

 

[Anonymous]

Counter argument to 2008. Wow, Evans, Sastre and VDV were all up high. Yeah Evans was in the top ten since 2005, his debut. Sastre made the podium in 2006 and Evans a year later in 2007. Clean years? Nice try mountain goat but using association with less than expected performances proves nothing. Very few on this forum believe any of those three are clean. Those who do need to answer a question or two. Firstly is said rider your favourite pro-cyclist? That will clear most of the opinions up nice and quickly. Remember the retesting by the LNDD 3 months back? 2008 was not even close to clean. The Giro was dirty and Contador almost lost a grand tour to Ricco who along with Sella, smacked the Spaniard all through the Dolomites and Alps. The Tour was no different, just that some were caught and others were not. Clean...far from it. Anyone remember Vande Velde's pleas and sincerity? Yes if I was there and clean, I too could have gone with Ricco and Carlos. Not good enough champ.

Well I wasn't trying to "prove" anything, just offering my opinion... Chill man, no need for the aggression.

While we are doing counter arguments. 1903, 1904 - catching the train is a "dirty" tactic, so nice try Galic Ho

 

[Hugh Januss]

Lance Armstrong is not my favorite rider.

With that said, I just do not understand why there are so many negative posts about him. I guess everybody hates a winner, kind of like all of the people who hate the Yankees and Patriots because they win.

He has never tested positive in any test. There are rumors that he has had positive results but, they are just that rumors. Like the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, just rumors. With all of the tests he has never had a confirmed positive result. This means only one thing to me. Either he is clean or he has found a way to dope which cannot be detected.

If Lance has discovered a way to dope without being detected then why have the other riders not used this same method? Most of the riders he has competed against have tested positive at some point over the last few years. It stands to reason that if Lance won his 7 TDF's on dope then anyone else who wins consistently must be doping, so Contador must be doping as well.

Personally I would like to see Andy Schleck win next year because I cannot stand Contador and Contador is as much of a doper as Lance is. Maybe that is why there was so much friction between AC and Lance. Lance did not want to share his wonder dope!

1; Who is your favorite rider then?
2; As a Yankees fan I can tell you, people don't hate them because they win. They hate them because they spend twice as much as the league average (or more, I lost track)on payroll. We all hate the Pats because they spend a lot and cheat (like the Red Sox).
3; They are only rumors to deluded fanboys who do not want to hear the truth, they are fact.
4; The other riders who have not tested positive have had the same money behind their preparation that LA has. FI: Basso has not tested positive, Ullrich has not tested positive, etc. They only catch the guys who can't or won't pay. The cops catch some of the others. As for Contador, wow you figured that out all by yourself, you deserve a prize!
5; Duh! They all do it. Lance was sharing his wonder dope with most of the peloton (exclusive contract with Ferarri or not). And as for your Andy Schleck, I am sure that his brother Frank never mentioned how much faster Fuentes made him. He probably kept that to himself because he didn't want little Andy getting faster than him.

 

[Frosty]

I'm not sure, but I don't think the peloton was all together at the base of the Verbier.

There is a climb up the valley to the bottom of the Verbier climb so some people probably got dropped on the way up but they wouldnt have been far behind at the bottom.

At any rate, when the best of the best are doping in order to win, I don't see how the others could remain competitive (avoid DNF/DNS) without doping too.

Its something ive wondered but without being in that situation its very difficult to know unless you go off other people's opinions. Its difficult to establish a baseline by looking back at times when doping may not have made a huge difference. How has a better understanding of nutrition affected things? Marginally or quite a lot?

 

[Galic Ho]

Well I wasn't trying to "prove" anything, just offering my opinion... Chill man, no need for the aggression.

While we are doing counter arguments. 1903, 1904 - catching the train is a "dirty" tactic, so nice try Galic Ho

Tone dude. Doesn't convey well online. I am chilled, no aggression. Catching a train is a dirty tactic, just thought some people might like a revision of history considering the thread topic, 'cleanest tour.' I wanted to highlight that cycling has never been clean. Some riders and teams are virtuous, but the sport has a filthy under current that is hidden and protected. It is a cancer and should be removed. I won't hold my breath waiting for the UCI and teams to be progressive. Heck catching someone like Lance doping that would be a nice catalyst for change.

My two cents on why aussiecyclefan94 believes Evans and Wiggins are more talented and cleaner than Valverde and Contador. I don't think they are on either count. Evans is arguably the third most talented cyclist in the world with Cancellara, but Contador and Valverde are 1 and 2. They are younger, one by 3 years, the other by almost 6. They've won more races and grand tours than Cadel has so far, all before 30 years of age. Cadel is 33 in February. Yes teams and pecking order played a part in this but pedigree cannot be denied. Dope aside the Spaniards are incredible. Personally anyone who has listened and read aussiecyclefan's posts knows that he loves Evans (read what you wish of this). Secondly he has taken playful digs at the Poms over Evans winning and being better than their boys. Conceding he has certain beliefs and opinions about Evans performance/preparation etc, he has to put Wiggins in the same boat. It would be hypocritical not to. Evans is clean or as clean as aussiecyclefan believes a GC rider can be. Wiggins gets the same benefit without any doubt over authenticity being raised because Britain is closer to Australia (culturally and in sporting relationship) and the Brits may rip him apart on the forum if Wiggins is not afforded this luxury. The Spaniards are fair game in this line of thinking. To the people who wonder why, be like me and many others here, they are all fair game. Nationalistic and patriotic vitriol are worthless when cheating and doping are unbridled. Cheaters and dopers don't care. Ego and greed are the currency of worth. Not integrity and patriotism. Hence, Cadel and Wiggins get no freebies, regardless of the image they advertise on home soil for their national populace. Heck, I believe we should call them out more because they are from our own shores.

By the way aussiecyclefan94, this is not me being mean or a ***. On the contrary I understand where you come from, I've simply moved on and treat everyone with the same brush. It is fair and I don't get let down when my hero falls from the pedestal I appointed them too is haste.

 

[poupou]

I'm not sure, but I don't think the peloton was all together at the base of the Verbier.

At any rate, when the best of the best are doping in order to win, I don't see how the others could remain competitive (avoid DNF/DNS) without doping too.

Do you remember the attack of Pantani and the alleged calculation made by Dr. doping Ferrari?

We now know that blood doping gives a huge and insurmountable advantage for their contenders, around 15-20% more of power and 50% of increase of time to exhaustion.
But body has a limited tank, he can not use that advantage without energy.
So every rider have probably, related to their weight, the same energy, so doped riders are probably limited by the total amount of energy they can burn in a race.

Furthermore, the cleanest stay longer inside peloton to preserve their body.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Do you remember the attack of Pantani and the alleged calculation made by Dr. doping Ferrari?

We now know that blood doping gives a huge and insurmountable advantage for their contenders, around 15-20% more of power and 50% of increase of time to exhaustion.
But body has a limited tank, he can not use that advantage without energy.
So every rider have probably, related to their weight, the same energy, so doped riders are probably limited by the total amount of energy they can burn in a race.

Furthermore, the cleanest stay longer inside peloton to preserve their body.

Of course doping entails far more than just blood doping. Whatever they do for training and race day recovery is perhaps even more important than what is done to get a particular boost on a particular race day. I'm just saying you got all these talented guys who are proven to be on very sophisticated programs that it's hard to grasp how any equal (much less lesser) talent would be able to compete at all without being involved too.

 

[Polish]

Yeah, but think of the hours of racing they do at incredible speeds in the mountains alone. How do you come in less than 20 minutes behind Contador on the Verbier clean? Yet everyone in the peloton except a handful manages to do it.

The idea that the anyone is clean in the peloton in 2009 (or 1999 or 1989 or 1979 or 1929) is naive.

Doping does not REALLY make a huge difference unless you are trying to win.

For example, if Alberto was clean, he would have finished 17minutes ahead
of the SLOWEST clean rider instead of 20mins. Not a huge difference there.

However, if Alberto was clean, he would have finished 2mins
BEHIND the first clean rider (Lance). THAT is a big difference!

http://wadawatch.blogspot.com/2009/06/deux-canards-laques.html

 

[Hugh Januss]

Doping does not REALLY make a huge difference unless you are trying to win.

For example, if Alberto was clean, he would have finished 17minutes ahead
of the SLOWEST clean rider instead of 20mins. Not a huge difference there.

However, if Alberto was clean, he would have finished 2mins
BEHIND the first clean rider (Lance). THAT is a big difference!

http://wadawatch.blogspot.com/2009/06/deux-canards-laques.html

Wow thanks for that link, I'd never read any of those claims before.
Ah hah hah hah hah!

 

[Race Radio]

He has never tested positive in any test. There are rumors that he has had positive results but, they are just that rumors. Like the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, just rumors.

Yes, he has tested positive. 6 times.
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

 

[FastMatt]

Yes, he has tested positive. 6 times.
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

Wow!! and why was he not suspended from racing like the others who tested positive?? Is there some sort of conspiracy going on here?

 

[Anonymous]

Wow!! and why was he not suspended from racing like the others who tested positive?? Is there some sort of conspiracy going on here?

the only trouble with ashenden.. 80 odd samples tested... only 13 or so positive for EPO..

if you beleive that youll believe anything

in the end lance doped in 99, as did everyone else, 2000 onwards, we can only speculate... to be honest it would be easier if they just retired every rider over 30 now and let us move forward from there