Climbers classic.

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Scarponi said:
To people with more cycling knowledge then myself. Why are there not any climbers classics, yes I know some classics have 3000ft of climbing etc or like Milan Turin but why isn't there a legit proper 5-6 climb classic like out of the grand tours? Is it because we see it too much in the gts. Would be interesting if they used different cat 1 and hc climbs every year
Milan Turin is not exactly for climbers,most of the race is flat and the 2 climbs are not very long.

In Spain we had something similar to that, subida a Urkiola and clasica de los puertos (In Madrid-Segovia)



https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cl%C3%A1sica_de_los_Puertos

I cant find the profile, but Navacerrada was in the last part with other climbs of la sierra, but not more for climbers than Lombardia this year.

As well I remerber (edit, I see now you talked about that) in France the Clasicc of the Alps. it finished in aix lex Bains, but with several climb in the route, the better clasic for climbers I remerber. People as Oliverio Rincóin, iban Mayo, Chava jimenez, Mancebo won this race, so is for climbers.

I remerber that fight between Lance and Mayo in 2001, the first big performance of the young Mayo, from that my idol (no now), it was a great race anyway, although now I am not interested in that era of cycling.
 
There seems something of an illusion that a Climber's Classic should be about adding as many mountains as possible or simply making the equivalent of an absolutely brutal GT stage, personally I disagree. You want to have a race which is about tactics and not solely attrition, otherwise you may as well make it Subida A Zoncolan and be done with it; it needs to be hard enough to sort the wheat from the chaff early enough to make the big guns have to work for themselves, but it also can't be so hard that it simply becomes a race to survive, because not only will that completely hamper the list of those willing to start, but that's simply not what one-day racing is meant to be about, even at Roubaix. It's about a combination of the knowledge of the right moves, the right groups to be in, and attrition and power. That's why a climber's classic should, in my mind, not really feature much in the way of HC climbs at all, but instead lots of mid-length climbs (not mostly short climbs otherwise it becomes a puncheur race and is no different from, say, Liège-Bastogne-Liège.

After all, the Duitama 1995 World Championships was brutally difficult, and only about 30 riders finished. Olano, Indurain and Pantani made up the podium. This was the route:



Sure, altitude played into that, but the climb isn't even all that long. Doing several 5-8km climbs without a massive amount of respite is probably more effective than doing a huge HC mountain odyssey, and realistically somewhere like País Vasco, Cantabria or the mountains around Genoa are better suited to creating a real climber's classic than the most famous Alps.

Hell, if they did the parcours right, the Clásica San Sebastián could perhaps be a proper climber's classic. To hell with Bordako Tontorra, they could go back to the old course but with Erlaitz instead of Arkale - 2x Jaizkibel, 2x Erlaitz and a climb or two in the early parts of the race, and this is a proper climber's race.
 
Jun 30, 2014
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The Austrian Federation seems to be pretty confident about the fact that the 2018 WC will take place in Innsbruck, a WC circuit around Innsbruck could be a real climbers classic and hard. Of course you could always create a circuit around Dornbirn, that would be a really hard race and a real climbers classic.
 
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Mayomaniac said:
The Austrian Federation seems to be pretty confident about the fact that the 2018 WC will take place in Innsbruck, a WC circuit around Innsbruck could be a real climbers classic and hard. Of course you could always create a circuit around Dornbirn, that would be a really hard race and a real climbers classic.
Did you see the WC RR on the ORF? If yes, what do you think about Rohregger's plans? The things he talked about seem to be very difficult. Could be pretty near to something we would call a climbers classic.
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Re: Re:

Gigs_98 said:
Mayomaniac said:
The Austrian Federation seems to be pretty confident about the fact that the 2018 WC will take place in Innsbruck, a WC circuit around Innsbruck could be a real climbers classic and hard. Of course you could always create a circuit around Dornbirn, that would be a really hard race and a real climbers classic.
Did you see the WC RR on the ORF? If yes, what do you think about Rohregger's plans? The things he talked about seem to be very difficult. Could be pretty near to something we would call a climbers classic.
No, what did he say?
 
Re: Re:

Mayomaniac said:
Gigs_98 said:
Mayomaniac said:
The Austrian Federation seems to be pretty confident about the fact that the 2018 WC will take place in Innsbruck, a WC circuit around Innsbruck could be a real climbers classic and hard. Of course you could always create a circuit around Dornbirn, that would be a really hard race and a real climbers classic.
Did you see the WC RR on the ORF? If yes, what do you think about Rohregger's plans? The things he talked about seem to be very difficult. Could be pretty near to something we would call a climbers classic.
No, what did he say?
First of all they already have plans for the final route, and Roregger is involved in the route design. The fact that he was a pure climber is probably reason enough to expect a very hard race.
He talked about two climbs in the route. The first one is Igls, which should be about 4 kilometers long and 7% steep. Then he talked about a second climb on the side of the "Nordkette". I don't know the climb but he said that it would be the main attraction of the course (after the commentator talked about libby hill and that it is the main attraction of the race, he asked Rohregger what would be the "Libby Hill" of the WC in Innsbruck, and Rohregger said it would be this climb, so it is probably a pretty hard one). That also means that there have to be two flat sections, one maybe in the centre of the town, which could mean some narrow street and technical turns.

I think he even talked about a third climb (which would be near Igls) but I'm not sure. I also think that he said the start would be in Kitzbühel, but I'm not sure about that too.
 
Jun 30, 2014
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That probably means up to the Nordkettenbahnen, that would be awesome, they could even use Höttinger Gasse at the start, but that's a really narrow street. If you climb to the Hungerburg/Nordbahnkettenbahn you have a few options, one is 4,4km at 6,3%, the other one 5,2km at 5,8% and the steep side of the climb is 3km at 9,6% with a few steep ramps (up to 15%). A circuit with Igls and a climb on the Nordkette could be very hard, the big problem in the centre of th town could be the tram tracks, but you can find a way to avoid them.
 
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Mayomaniac said:
That probably means up to the Nordkettenbahnen, that would be awesome, they could even use Höttinger Gasse at the start, but that's a really narrow street. If you climb to the Hungerburg/Nordbahnkettenbahn you have a few options, one is 4,4km at 6,3%, the other one 5,2km at 5,8% and the steep side of the climb is 3km at 9,6% with a few steep ramps (up to 15%). A circuit with Igls and a climb on the Nordkette could be very hard, the big problem in the centre of th town could be the tram tracks, but you can find a way to avoid them.
Now that you talk about it, I think it the street he talked about is Höttinger Gasse
 
While thinking about the Olympic road race, I remembered this thread, since it was more or less a climbers classic. And I think the race showed why a climbers classic would work. The last climb wasn't easier than the climbs before, but still there were many attacks before the final climb. As I wrote it earlier in this thread, a hard climb near the end wouldn't encourage the big favorites to do long range attacks, but everyone else doesn't want to come to the last climb together with the strongest climber of the tour, so even guys like Nibali attacked early and it didn't come down to the last few kilometers of the last ascent, after a completely controlled race. And at the end it wasn't even a climber who won the race.
 
For me this would be a very interesting Race Design Challenge. Far more interesting than a mega race of many, many stages. Here you have to find a real good balance with date, design, location, riders per team and so on. We should keep that in mind. ;)
 
Gigs_98 said:
While thinking about the Olympic road race, I remembered this thread, since it was more or less a climbers classic. And I think the race showed why a climbers classic would work. The last climb wasn't easier than the climbs before, but still there were many attacks before the final climb. As I wrote it earlier in this thread, a hard climb near the end wouldn't encourage the big favorites to do long range attacks, but everyone else doesn't want to come to the last climb together with the strongest climber of the tour, so even guys like Nibali attacked early and it didn't come down to the last few kilometers of the last ascent, after a completely controlled race. And at the end it wasn't even a climber who won the race.
They could use Rio RR course as a classic like they did with London one in the London-Surrey classic.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Nirvana said:
Gigs_98 said:
While thinking about the Olympic road race, I remembered this thread, since it was more or less a climbers classic. And I think the race showed why a climbers classic would work. The last climb wasn't easier than the climbs before, but still there were many attacks before the final climb. As I wrote it earlier in this thread, a hard climb near the end wouldn't encourage the big favorites to do long range attacks, but everyone else doesn't want to come to the last climb together with the strongest climber of the tour, so even guys like Nibali attacked early and it didn't come down to the last few kilometers of the last ascent, after a completely controlled race. And at the end it wasn't even a climber who won the race.
They could use Rio RR course as a classic like they did with London one in the London-Surrey classic.
Yeah well wait until you see the Rio RR course raced with teams of 9 blocking all initiatives so that you can get a bunch of 15/20 guys coming together....
 
veji11 said:
Nirvana said:
Gigs_98 said:
While thinking about the Olympic road race, I remembered this thread, since it was more or less a climbers classic. And I think the race showed why a climbers classic would work. The last climb wasn't easier than the climbs before, but still there were many attacks before the final climb. As I wrote it earlier in this thread, a hard climb near the end wouldn't encourage the big favorites to do long range attacks, but everyone else doesn't want to come to the last climb together with the strongest climber of the tour, so even guys like Nibali attacked early and it didn't come down to the last few kilometers of the last ascent, after a completely controlled race. And at the end it wasn't even a climber who won the race.
They could use Rio RR course as a classic like they did with London one in the London-Surrey classic.
Yeah well wait until you see the Rio RR course raced with teams of 9 blocking all initiatives so that you can get a bunch of 15/20 guys coming together....
London-Surrey Classic is raced with teams of six riders, i don't think it's a problem doing the same in an eventually Rio Classic.
Anyway nine riders it's impossible because the maximum for one day races it's eight.
 
veji11 said:
Nirvana said:
Gigs_98 said:
While thinking about the Olympic road race, I remembered this thread, since it was more or less a climbers classic. And I think the race showed why a climbers classic would work. The last climb wasn't easier than the climbs before, but still there were many attacks before the final climb. As I wrote it earlier in this thread, a hard climb near the end wouldn't encourage the big favorites to do long range attacks, but everyone else doesn't want to come to the last climb together with the strongest climber of the tour, so even guys like Nibali attacked early and it didn't come down to the last few kilometers of the last ascent, after a completely controlled race. And at the end it wasn't even a climber who won the race.
They could use Rio RR course as a classic like they did with London one in the London-Surrey classic.
Yeah well wait until you see the Rio RR course raced with teams of 9 blocking all initiatives so that you can get a bunch of 15/20 guys coming together....
I think the descent would be a more immediate problem.
 
Re:

Nirvana said:
Just wanted to write this. I fear that nobody will want to race this since the race doesn't have a high importance but will be very hard and therefore not really fit into anyones preparation, but if this becomes a prestigious race I'd be super happy. Now let's just pray for TV coverage.

Edit:
Btw, for everyone who doesn't know this race, this is the profile:


Edit2: And another reason why I'm happy about this race is that it maybe calls the giro organizer's attention on the Timmelsjoch. I want to see this pass (preferable with a mtf on the Rettenbachferner afterwards) since I first heard something about it.
 
Re: Re:

el chava said:
Nirvana said:
Very nice indeed. I hope this will launch more interest for pro cycling in Austria. Maybe this will even have the potential for a WT race at some point.
I'm optimistic about this. If the Giro del Trentino will really become eh Euregio Tour next year Austria would have 3 pro races in the season and one year later the WC. I'm really happy about this development.
 
Re: Re:

Gigs_98 said:
Nirvana said:
Just wanted to write this. I fear that nobody will want to race this since the race doesn't have a high importance but will be very hard and therefore not really fit into anyones preparation, but if this becomes a prestigious race I'd be super happy. Now let's just pray for TV coverage.

Edit:
Btw, for everyone who doesn't know this race, this is the profile:


Edit2: And another reason why I'm happy about this race is that it maybe calls the giro organizer's attention on the Timmelsjoch. I want to see this pass (preferable with a mtf on the Rettenbachferner afterwards) since I first heard something about it.

Red Rick said:
Priorities are different, and the possible group of winners would be vastly different. Classics, especially the smaller ones, often have more unpredictable racing and a bigger group of possible winners and more tactics. I think classics shouldn't just be W/Kg's slugfest. Nobody prefers FW to PR.

I do think that there should be one day races with cat 2 and maybe some cat 1 mountains far from the finish. Medium mountains would be best for this. When should they be though? I think the best place would between the Tour and the Vuelta, have a week of two with 4 classics including CSS. June would also be possible.

Meeeeeeehhhh
 

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