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climbing Vs. ITT
- Thread starter Nikoloz
- Start date
- Jun 22, 2009
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climbing is ussually neutralized by one or two long ITT (well it's still competitve to the point it can go either way). 5 long ITT. might as well give martin the win.
- Feb 20, 2010
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It would only work if the 5 ITTs were relatively short and the 5 mountaintop finishes were straight out of Angelo Zomegnan's fantasies. Racing is different to how it was in the old days; the amount of time that can be gained in the mountains with modern tech, race radios and tactics is not the same as it was in the days of 100km ITTs and the TT mileage has come down in line with that (and sometimes too far, as with a few recent GTs). The days of the GC men leaving their compadres behind with 100km and four passes to go and finishing eight minutes before anyone else are over, and the days of the 100km chrono are over to match.
- Mar 10, 2009
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Every decade or when we get a new race director the race changes some. I have to agree most recent Tour's are climber specific or favored.
You say why not an ITT that's 100K or as many as climbing specific stages (or basically more than 20 or 40k I would guess), yes that would surely add an interesting factor in the race and change it from many GC contenders training concentration and race tactics. As long as they equally had a Tour that was flatish to favor a non-climber I'd say lets go for it (as if we could change it :roll: ). Imagine a Tour that every year had a course so different the winner or possible winners would not be so predictable.
You say why not an ITT that's 100K or as many as climbing specific stages (or basically more than 20 or 40k I would guess), yes that would surely add an interesting factor in the race and change it from many GC contenders training concentration and race tactics. As long as they equally had a Tour that was flatish to favor a non-climber I'd say lets go for it (as if we could change it :roll: ). Imagine a Tour that every year had a course so different the winner or possible winners would not be so predictable.
ITTs don't have to be boring, but it is really up to the coverage to make it better.
I wouldn't like to see 5 ITT, but 100km plus over varied terrain, hells yeah. ITT under about an hour and a half maybe even out to 2 hours are determined only by lactate tolerance, something over 100km would bring fuel into consideration and there is scope to mess up big time, and it may be very interesting to see who takes the win.
Though with poor TV coverage you may as well just read the result at the end. TDF tends to do better than Vuelta...how do you have a TTT in seville at night and not end up with a spectacular product?
EDIT for reference Ferrari estimates to make life even theree should be twice the number of minutes spent in flat ITT to account for MTFs, ie one MTF of 30 minutes, vs 60 minutes ITT.
I wouldn't like to see 5 ITT, but 100km plus over varied terrain, hells yeah. ITT under about an hour and a half maybe even out to 2 hours are determined only by lactate tolerance, something over 100km would bring fuel into consideration and there is scope to mess up big time, and it may be very interesting to see who takes the win.
Though with poor TV coverage you may as well just read the result at the end. TDF tends to do better than Vuelta...how do you have a TTT in seville at night and not end up with a spectacular product?
EDIT for reference Ferrari estimates to make life even theree should be twice the number of minutes spent in flat ITT to account for MTFs, ie one MTF of 30 minutes, vs 60 minutes ITT.
5 TT's might be too many. A 100k TT would be pretty cool as long as it was somewhat neutralized by big mountain stages.
Ferminal said:
They can be longer with permission. I wonder what the reason is they set it at 60km?
- Aug 6, 2010
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Nikoloz said:
Nikoloz, I think you want something like this, created by yours truly, around 8 months ago
"It would be fair to say that I have had some time on my hands.
So I thought I would create a dream TDF parcours for 2011, based on Klodi's TDF career (highlighting his best moments/rides). Not only would this parcours give Andreas a great chance of victory in Paris (not that this is finishing in Paris ) this year, but I'm sure that most would agree that it would make for great racing in general.
Prologue: Prologue - Saturday, July 7: London - London, 7.9km ‘07
ITT
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...stages/tour070
STAGE 1: Stage 11 - Thursday, July 19: Marseille - Montpellier, 182.5km ‘07
Flat, but possibly windy.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...tages/tour0711
STAGE 2: Stage 3 - July 6: Waterloo - Wasquehal, 210 km ‘04
Cobbles!
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...=stages/stage3
STAGE 3: Stage 8 - July 11: Lamballe - Quimper, 168 km ‘04
Lumpy, short uphill finish.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...=stages/stage8
STAGE 4: stage 12 - Bourg-de-Péage Mende, 210.5 km ‘10
Medium mountains, MTF.
http://www.letour.fr/2010/TDF/COURSE...par_etape.html
STAGE 5: Stage 4 - Tuesday, July 7: Montpellier - Montpellier (TTT), 38km
TTT
STAGE 6: Stage 10 - Wednesday July 14: Limoges - St Flour, 237 km ‘04
Medium mountains.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...stages/stage10
STAGE 7: Stage 12 - Friday July 16: Castelsarrasin - La Mongie, 197.5 km ‘04
High mountains, MTF.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...stages/stage12
STAGE 8: stage 14 - Revel Ax 3 Domaines, 184.5 km ‘10
High mountains, MTF.
http://www.letour.fr/2010/TDF/COURSE...par_etape.html
STAGE 9: Stage 15 - Monday, July 23: Foix - Loudenvielle - Le Louron, 196km ‘07
High mountains, descent finish.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...tages/tour0715
STAGE 10: Stage 13 - Saturday, July 21: Albi - Albi, 54km ‘07
ITT
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...tages/tour0713
STAGE 11: Stage 14 - Sunday, July 16: Montélimar - Gap, 181 km ‘06
Lumpy.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...tages/tour0614
STAGE 12: Stage 15 - Tuesday July 20: Valreas - Villard-de-Lans, 180.5 km ‘04
Medium-High mountains.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...stages/stage15
STAGE 13: Stage 10 - July 17: Aix-Les-Bains –Bourg-d’Oisans, 193 km ‘01
High mountains, descent finish .
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/resul..._10.shtml#prof
STAGE 14: Stage 16 - July 21: Bourg d'Oisans - Alpe d'Huez ITT, 15.5 km ‘04
MTT
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...stages/stage16
STAGE 15: Stage 16 - Wednesday, July 19: Le Bourg-d'Oisans - La Toussuire, 182 km ‘06
High mountains, MTF.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...tages/tour0616
STAGE 16: Stage 17 - Wednesday, July 22: Bourg-Saint-Maurice – Col de Romme, 140.5km ‘09
High mountains, MTF .
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...tages/tour0917
STAGE 17: Stage 18 - Friday, July 21: Morzine - Mâcon, 197 km ‘06
Fairly flat, for the sprinters!
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...tages/tour0618
STAGE 18: Stage 19 - Saturday, July 22: Le Creusot - Montceau-les-Mines ITT, 57 km ‘06
ITT
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...tages/tour0619
STAGE 19: Stage 8 - Saturday, July 9: Pforzheim - Gérardmer, 231.5 km ‘05
Medium mountains, descent finish.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...stages/tour058
STAGE 20: Stage 1 - Saturday, July 4: Monaco - Monaco (ITT), 15km ‘09
ITT
Please note that the profiles of stages 13 and 16 have been significantly shortened - for Klodi's benefit."
KLODEN!
- Oct 1, 2010
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Nikoloz said:
Check out this Tour from the past (ITTs and TTTs in bold):
P 27 June Fleurance Individual time trial 5 km (3.1 mi)
1 28 June Fleurance – Luchon Stage with mountain(s) 225 km (140 mi)
2 29 June Luchon – Superbagneres Individual time trial 24 km (15 mi)
3 30 June Luchon – Pau Stage with mountain(s) 180 km (110 mi)
4 1 July Captieux – Bordeaux Team time trial 87 km (54 mi)
5 2 July Neuville de Poitou – Angers Plain stage 145 km (90 mi)
6 3 July Angers – St Brieuc Plain stage 239 km (149 mi)
7 4 July St Hilaire du Harcouet – Deauville Plain stage 158 km (98 mi)
8 5 July Deauville – Le Havre Team time trial 90 km (56 mi)
9 6 July Amiens – Roubaix Plain stage 201 km (125 mi)
10 7 July Roubaix – Brussel Plain stage 124 km (77 mi)
11 8 July Brussel Individual time trial 33 km (21 mi)
12 9 July Rochefort – Metz Plain stage 193 km (120 mi)
13 10 July Metz – Ballon d'Alsace Hilly stage 202 km (126 mi)
14 11 July Belfort – Evian Plain stage 248 km (154 mi)
15 12 July Evian – Morzine Avoriaz Individual time trial 54 km (34 mi)
16 13 July Morzine Avoriaz – Les Menuires Stage with mountain(s) 201 km (125 mi)
17 15 July Les Menuires – L'Alpe d'Huez Stage with mountain(s) 167 km (104 mi)
18 16 July L'Alpe d'Huez Stage with mountain(s) 119 km (74 mi)
19 17 July L'Alpe d'Huez – St Priest Plain stage 162 km (101 mi)
20 18 July St Priest – Dijon Plain stage 240 km (150 mi)
21 19 July Dijon Individual time trial 49 km (30 mi)
22 20 July Dijon – Auxerre Plain stage 189 km (117 mi)
23 21 July Auxerre – Nogent sur Marne Plain stage 205 km (127 mi)
24 22 July Le Perreux sur Marne – Parijs Plain stage 180 km (110 mi)
Perhaps someone who followed cycling in 1979 could tell us if 342km of time trials made it a boring race?
- May 14, 2010
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AngusW said:
In my view they need to get a lot more imaginative with GT parcours. That's what was so exciting to fans about the work of Zomegan. He was eager to mix it up, break out of the mold (or moldy, rather), try new stuff. Often, trying new stuff simply means dusting off things that haven't been done in such a long time that, today, they seem fresh.
Take this parcours from 1979 for example. No less than two team time trials and five, count 'em, five individual TTs. Mix in an appropriate number of MTFs - and, oh yeah, tell the riders that for some or all of this year's TTs we're going to allow only your regular road bikes - and you might have a really exciting race. Certainly you'd have a different race.
PS. The action begins at 00:51
http://youtu.be/6toi9X1t3Z4
and, strictly for the anthropologically curious, I'll add this, which continues approximately where the above leaves off:
http://youtu.be/i6pvcW54bWw
You'll notice that Hinault goes directly from his bike to the podium, still coughing up little bits of blood and without washing up. The victor's maillot jaune is put on directly over the maillot jaune he'd just won the stage in. That, my friends, is authenticity.
Here's a great stage-by-stage blow-by-blow of that race:
http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf1979.html
- Jun 7, 2010
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2 individual time trials of similar structure ("flat" for the first part and ending with a climb only with a different length), 2 team trials of similar length (one more hillier than the other).
Seems a bit redundant.
Seems a bit redundant.
- Jul 16, 2011
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I'd say that the amount of ITT in next year's tour is about right. You could possibly add an MTT. What is missing is a real queen stage in the Pyrenees.
- Sep 9, 2009
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TeamSkyFans said:
Only for those with childish minds.
The worlds TT with 5 intermediate checkpoints was one of the most exciting stages to follow this year.
Compared to a modern mountain stage where you can turn on for the last hour and usually miss very little, TTs do at least offer a genuine cause for interest over the full 4 or 5 hours.
- Sep 9, 2009
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Angliru said:
People who think the joy of cycling lies purely in mountain attacks are enjoying the sport on a similar level to Nascar fans, and missing a whole world of statistical enjoyment.
- Mar 10, 2009
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Waterloo Sunrise said:
Statistical enjoyment??? Are you serious? Could you elaborate on how the stats from an ITT are favorable to the stats from a rider or rider's ascent of lengthy mountain (from the standpoint of a fans enjoyment)? How is one favorable or better than the other, from a statistical standpoint?
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