CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

[MartinGT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1192803866322067456

View: https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1192803866322067456?s=20


Poor Big Fat Sam had the same issue

 

[MartinGT]

Are Freeman and his team so bad that they would try to use Suttons alleged ED as a defense?

Yeah, probably. Sky/Ineos/BC seems to come up with the most ridiculous arguments when trying to defend themselves. But it's been working so far. As the bus rolls over Freeman.

But they leave no stone unturned dont forget. They're the best

 

[Jacques (7 ch)]

Are you joking. Loads of people who are not sports organisations get drugs sent to them. Any of us could go online right now and get Viagra and whatnot sent to us

Clenbuterol.uk used to do the job just fine. FYI.

 

[samhocking]

Surely the bigger picture here is Daily Mails affidavit signed by Sutton to Lawton & his Lawyer as defamation insurance for what Sutton claims is in the package as the whistleblower is probably the fabrication of a lie? This is a potentially explosive next week if true.

O'Rourke claims the affidavit is a lie and that it's a signed statement of Sutton's word to Lawton & Daily Mail's lawyer the package contents contains evidence of wrongdoing to use as defamation insurance for Daily Mail in Court (I assume).

Sutton however then told the parliamentary select committee:
"I cannot tell you what was in the package. You need to ask who opened the package and who packed the package"
O'Rourke has Burt who packed it as Freemans witness & Peters who will be witness to Sutton bullying Freeman.

Sutton also said:
"I am upset you doubt the integrity of our team. Team Sky is a clean team. There is no wrongdoing"


So, either O'Rourke is taking a huge risk & Burt has also lied to her about what he put in the package or Sutton has lied to Lawton and made it up and Daily Mail/Sutton is then subject to several defamation claims they will undoubtedly have trouble defending.

 

[gillan1969]

Surely the bigger picture here is Daily Mails affidavit signed by Sutton to Lawton & his Lawyer as defamation insurance for what Sutton claims is in the package as the whistleblower is probably the fabrication of a lie? This is a potentially explosive next week if true.

O'Rourke claims the affidavit is a lie and that it's a signed statement of Sutton's word to Lawton & Daily Mail's lawyer the package contents contains evidence of wrongdoing to use as defamation insurance for Daily Mail in Court (I assume).

Sutton however then told the parliamentary select committee:
"I cannot tell you what was in the package. You need to ask who opened the package and who packed the package"
O'Rourke has Burt who packed it as Freemans witness & Peters who will be witness to Sutton bullying Freeman.

Sutton also said:
"I am upset you doubt the integrity of our team. Team Sky is a clean team. There is no wrongdoing"


So, either O'Rourke is taking a huge risk & Burt has also lied to her about what he put in the package or Sutton has lied to Lawton and made it up and Daily Mail/Sutton is then subject to several defamation claims they will undoubtedly have trouble defending.

sorry the bigger picture is not a flaky doc, a dodgy journo and a really dodgy aussie...they are ten a penny.....the bigger picture, which you have clearly missed is that the most scessful track team and GT team of the last decade now very much appear to have been built on PEDs....

BTW the package is so last year............we're now on T and corticosteriods lying around.....

 

[samhocking]

sorry the bigger picture is not a flaky doc, a dodgy journo and a really dodgy aussie...they are ten a penny.....the bigger picture, which you have clearly missed is that the most scessful track team and GT team of the last decade now very much appear to have been built on PEDs....

BTW the package is so last year............we're now on T and corticosteriods lying around.....

Yet GMC only has Sutton as their witness and their defense depends on Sutton's credibility in front of the panel even to remotely have a chance this goes back to UKAD again to look at what you think the big picture reall is? O'Rourke will use the affidavit signed with Lawton as evidence it doesn't match what he told DCMS to destroy his credibility in front of the panel under cross-examination. Given the affidavit signed with Lawton is no-doubt for Sutton confirming the contents of the jiffy contained wrongdoing as true in return for payment and to go through legal and be published, it was signed believing his whistleblowing would be anonyous and never compared to his later completely opposite claim to DCMS under oath yet to still happen.

 

[MatParker117]

sorry the bigger picture is not a flaky doc, a dodgy journo and a really dodgy aussie...they are ten a penny.....the bigger picture, which you have clearly missed is that the most scessful track team and GT team of the last decade now very much appear to have been built on PEDs....

BTW the package is so last year............we're now on T and corticosteriods lying around.....

It doesn't matter what it appears to you, the only opinion that matters is that of Sir Jim. Also without those records, which were remotely wiped when the laptop was stolen there's likely nothing that UKAD or WADA to any riders or personnel.

 

[70kmph]

Freeman was the perfect Sky employee a compulsive liar, unethical and prepared to erase all the evidence

 

[samhocking]

Or as MPTS charged him with, the 3 members of BC staff he was prescribing to, he wasn't even recording any of their medical data in the first place and that's not even subject to WADA rules lol!

 

[gillan1969]

Yet GMC only has Sutton as their witness and their defense depends on Sutton's credibility in front of the panel even to remotely have a chance this goes back to UKAD again to look at what you think the big picture reall is? O'Rourke will use the affidavit signed with Lawton as evidence it doesn't match what he told DCMS to destroy his credibility in front of the panel under cross-examination. Given the affidavit signed with Lawton is no-doubt for Sutton confirming the contents of the jiffy contained wrongdoing as true in return for payment and to go through legal and be published, it was signed believing his whistleblowing would be anonyous and never compared to his later completely opposite claim to DCMS under oath yet to still happen.

hahaha...keep on believin'.....the GMC doesn't have a 'defense', it's the arbitror ..Freeman has already plead guilty to a number of the charges and has admitted lying to everyone including UKAD about the T...you can focus on the Tribunal and its niceities however the bigger picture...as you like to talk about.... is that the the sky doc has been buying doping products....simples....I'm sure if he told you it was for his dog you'd believe him though....

 

[fmk_RoI]

The Spodcast takes up the Freeman story. They're of the view that the lies alone mean Freeman's licence is gone, he's going to be struck off. Most of what they say is at this stage in the proceedings bland, heard it all before, background waffle, but they do link the Testogel, the Jiffy bag and Leinders.

A comment from it that's been picked up elsewhere in the pom-pom waving world of fandom:"The quantity that we're talking about of the Testogel ordered was about a month's worth, for one person. They didn't order a cupboard full of it that was ... there's certainly nothing to suggest here there was widespread, systematic doping with testosterone going on either in British Cycling or Team Sky. But there would have been enough to dope someone for a month."

 

[samhocking]

hahaha...keep on believin'.....the GMC doesn't have a 'defense', it's the arbitror ..Freeman has already plead guilty to a number of the charges and has admitted lying to everyone including UKAD about the T...you can focus on the Tribunal and its niceities however the bigger picture...as you like to talk about.... is that the the sky doc has been buying doping products....simples....I'm sure if he told you it was for his dog you'd believe him though....

I mean Suttons defense for not having erectile dysfunction and his credibility re. Lawton.
At the moment, we know Freeman lied. Innocent people lie though, guilty people lie more. The bully at school will make you lie for them however as will the boss at work threatening to sack you etc etc and Sutton we know bullied Freeman and others. Until we know 'why' Freeman ordered a box of Testogel and then immediately proceeded to tell lies to not only UKAD, but Peters the boss of BC & Sky medical team, Burt (who packed the jiffy bag) has never added up because in 2011 there was no investigation, BC were on their 2012 wave and everyone loved them-ish. Why would you be covering up an order to a doping program/rider that you conciously wanted to use and nobody at the time would know about it other than you and those involved in delivering that performance enhancement if that was the objective of the order anyway?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Why would you be covering up an order to a doping program/rider that you conciously wanted to use and nobody at the time would know about it other than you and those involved in delivering that performance enhancement if that was the objective of the order anyway?

Yes, why would you want to cover up your rule-breaking? That really is the dog in the night of all this. Marvellous insight!

 

[fmk_RoI]

Question for medical geeks hereabouts: Freeman ordered and received Testogel, which is gel in a sachet, 30 sachets to a box, 50mg of gel per sachet? Is this correct so far?

Typically, what are the micro-dosing levels? How little would you be using, and how often?

 

[brownbobby]

Yes, why would you want to cover up your rule-breaking? That really is the dog in the night of all this. Marvellous insight!

I read the question from Sam to be why would Freeman be trying to cover his tracks with Burt and Peters if this was part of some wider systemic doping practice at BC/Sky (as some people seem to be suggesting it is proof of)

Valid question I think..

 

[brownbobby]

Question for medical geeks hereabouts: Freeman ordered and received Testogel, which is gel in a sachet, 30 sachets to a box, 50mg of gel per sachet? Is this correct so far?

Typically, what are the micro-dosing levels? How little would you be using, and how often?

The problem with Testogel is that it’s an incredibly inefficient means of delivering synthetic testosterone, so the 50mg sachet will only be good for a fraction of that dose when absorbed into the body.

Intramuscular injections are the only efficient means of delivery for true performance enhancement.

In any dose Testogel is pretty much useless for enhancing strength, speed, muscle development etc

What Testogel does do is provide enough of a dose when applied daily to restore depleted levels in individuals (wether that depletion is age related or from the inevitable decline experienced by athletes during heavy endurance training blocks) back to ‘normal’ ranges. Hence it’s historic use in cycling I think.

So to answer the question, 30 x 50mg sachets really is a very minimal level for one individual for a month to see any benefit at all. ‘Microdosing’ with anything less would be pretty pointless ime.

 

[samhocking]

I read the question from Sam to be why would Freeman be trying to cover his tracks with Burt and Peters if this was part of some wider systemic doping practice at BC/Sky (as some people seem to be suggesting it is proof of)

Valid question I think..

Yes, that was the point. fmk will continually attempt to belittle any opinion I have though here. It's interesting looking back to him hounding me for evidence Sutton's erectile dysfunction would be Freeman's defence and when providing it making out like I was foolishly linking two articles together to fabricate some alternate Sky fan reality I want to see.

But, yes, my point was. Why would Freeman lie and make excuses to to his own team (Burt) and manager (Peters) about a doping product you wanted to order, you wanted to receive and you wanted to administer to an athlete ? Was Freeman acting entirely alone doping British Cycling & Sky without Peters and Burt knowing, considering it was Burt who packaged the jiffy bag for him and was the first to open the Testogel order? It really doesn't sound like a cover story would need to be fabricated. Why would you then also go to the supplier and get them to make up a story for you too - just for Peters satisfaction is odd? I smell fear in Freeman from Sutton and I smell fear Freeman was aware Testosteron at the velodrome outside the medical teams knowledge was a sackable offence under his BC contract if Peters didn't think it was an error. If it was consciously ordered and Peters knew, he would be sacked on the spot and couldn't tell the truth Sutton was bullying him for a variety of reasons, all common to being bullied.

 

[Mr.38%]

The problem with Testogel is that it’s an incredibly inefficient means of delivering synthetic testosterone, so the 50mg sachet will only be good for a fraction of that dose when absorbed into the body.

Intramuscular injections are the only efficient means of delivery for true performance enhancement.

In any dose Testogel is pretty much useless for enhancing strength, speed, muscle development etc

What Testogel does do is provide enough of a dose when applied daily to restore depleted levels in individuals (wether that depletion is age related or from the inevitable decline experienced by athletes during heavy endurance training blocks) back to ‘normal’ ranges. Hence it’s historic use in cycling I think.

So to answer the question, 30 x 50mg sachets really is a very minimal level for one individual for a month to see any benefit at all. ‘Microdosing’ with anything less would be pretty pointless ime.

Sinkewitz scored a 24/1 T/E using a satchet [1], Kessler got it up to 85/1 with Andriol [2] - yet both drugs are much less potent than some injection. So bottom line is, it worked, it has always worked as intended.

Both ratios are also lower than the probability that this was the first and only order of T by anyone from Sky/British Cycling.

[1] https://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/testosteron-gel-radprofi-sinkewitz-gesteht-doping-a-497493.html
[2] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/doping-noch-mehr-testosteron-1.714113

 

[gillan1969]

Yes, that was the point. fmk will continually attempt to belittle any opinion I have though here. It's interesting looking back to him hounding me for evidence Sutton's erectile dysfunction would be Freeman's defence and when providing it making out like I was foolishly linking two articles together to fabricate some alternate Sky fan reality I want to see.

But, yes, my point was. Why would Freeman lie and make excuses to to his own team (Burt) and manager (Peters) about a doping product you wanted to order, you wanted to receive and you wanted to administer to an athlete ? Was Freeman acting entirely alone doping British Cycling & Sky without Peters and Burt knowing, considering it was Burt who packaged the jiffy bag for him and was the first to open the Testogel order? It really doesn't sound like a cover story would need to be fabricated. Why would you then also go to the supplier and get them to make up a story for you too - just for Peters satisfaction is odd? I smell fear in Freeman from Sutton and I smell fear Freeman was aware Testosteron at the velodrome outside the medical teams knowledge was a sackable offence under his BC contract if Peters didn't think it was an error. If it was consciously ordered and Peters knew, he would be sacked on the spot and couldn't tell the truth Sutton was bullying him for a variety of reasons, all common to being bullied.

jeez...remind me never to involve you guys in a criminal plot....watch reservoir dogs...people ostensibily within the same 'act' sometimes do not know what the others are doing...sometimes they do but don't know who else does....and sometimes they lie for show...to demonstrate to the assembled audience that the audience demonstrably don't know, even although they might......also watch any mafia film......'the boss', despite ordering the hit, never wants the dead body turning up in his own property.......you guys need to get out more

now you can turn yourself into knots attrubuting whatever reason you like.........for those with a far simpler explanation and with statistics on their side.......it's a pro cycling doctor ordering PEDs for his riders...of course he might not even 'give' them to them...Sutton may request them, freeman may then leave his door open and the GT contender, who just hapens to be at the velodrome (for testing) happens into the room and sees them on the desk...remember, luckily for all there is no record keeping.......what's a GT contender, who needs to lose weight and keep the power, to do????...........its not like SKY had any really skinny GT winners who lost weight and increased power during this time...or even riders who just lost a lot weight during the season......and as SDB said himself...how they lost weight would be a good question to both ask...and answer (of course, still we await that particular answer - although it may just be becoming clearer)

and so................ just to get this right (you seem to be going right down the 'defence' story of bullying)........Freeman compromises his own career, 20 years work by BC, millions of pounds in funding and the shame of losing knighthoods and future millions from Ineos because he is scared of one blunt aussie?????????........that's one hell of a bully.....

 

[samhocking]

So you're claiming Freeman ran BC's and Sky's doping as a lone-man operation separate to Sutton, Peters, Burt & Brailsford and even the riders themselves & you believe Sutton told Lawton the truth anonymously and when Burt opened the order of Testogel, Peters & Freeman panicked? So much they decided Freeman should fabricate it was their licenced suppliers fault (also with their own paper trail) they received, as ordered, what Freeman needed for riders, for no reason and not only that, left an email, invoice and bank paper trail for UKAD, all because Burt opened a box of Testogel? Then Freeman makes up different lies to UKAD & GMC, when all they had to do in the first place was accept the package and do with it what they intended and nobody would ever know other than Burt who had access to the medical store anyway? No doubt you will be aware Burt in 2011 at this period of history in the team packaged Triamcinolone for Freeman in the Wiggins TUE thread - if you believe that was what was in the package and what he put in there for Cope.
Let's see if your belittling of me stacks up better to fmk's earlier - all which has turned out to be a story around the breakdown of relationships between Freeman, Sutton & Wiggins we are now witnessing and as I also claimed Lawton is involved too for withholding a story regarding Sutton, Testogel & bullying in return for the jiffybag fabrication it looks like was paid for.

 

[samhocking]

Also claimed by O'Rourke, she said DCMS omitted several pieces of evidence from their report. Lets see who's statements the DCMS decided to not bother including, only referenced:

Phil Burt (DOP0006)
Dr Richard Freeman (DOP0007)

I'll leave you with this witness statement from DCMS from another Doctor in Team Sky with Freeman, which is undoubtedly Dr Richard Usher or Dr Alan Farrell .

At the committee interview Shane hid behind trusting the medical team this is utter nonsense he directed the medical team he constantly bullied Richard Freeman

 

[gillan1969]

@sam I don't need to believe anything beacuse I don't have a pre-conceived narrative. What I have are the facts. The facts are that a cycling doc received PEDs and then lied about it...inlcuding to UKAD. And his GT riders were once very poor but were now very skinny and could climb and time trial with impunity........

 

[King Boonen]

Question for medical geeks hereabouts: Freeman ordered and received Testogel, which is gel in a sachet, 30 sachets to a box, 50mg of gel per sachet? Is this correct so far?

Typically, what are the micro-dosing levels? How little would you be using, and how often?

You'd have to ask Salazar...

On a more serious note, I'm not sure it's known. response is going to differ person to person and I'm not sure there have been any decent studies into it. With micro-dosing I think the idea is to use as much as you think you can get by the testers, rather than a specific amount. Here's a study on detection of a single dose of 100mg via the biological passport in 8 men over 12, 24, 36 and 48 hours:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/dta.2341

Quick summary, all 8 returned abnormal 5αAdiol/E ratios up to 36 hours. All but 1 were abnormal in one of the 4 other ratios up to 24 hours and the one who was not provided 2 instead of 3 baseline samples (in such a small study this seems strange, I'm guessing it was a student project so they couldn't re-recruit). Urine analysis wasn't as good, as you might expect. This was with a limited baseline, so it's possible that range would be extended with a longer ABP.

There are some other interesting points. 5α reductase is noted as found in high concentrations in the skin, so the 5α makers are likely the best way of detecting transdermal T doping. I'm not sure if the same is found with intra-muscular injections, but it maybe points to the requirement for a range of testing methods to detect the different methods of doping with the same compound.

 

[King Boonen]

The problem with Testogel is that it’s an incredibly inefficient means of delivering synthetic testosterone, so the 50mg sachet will only be good for a fraction of that dose when absorbed into the body.

Intramuscular injections are the only efficient means of delivery for true performance enhancement.

In any dose Testogel is pretty much useless for enhancing strength, speed, muscle development etc

What Testogel does do is provide enough of a dose when applied daily to restore depleted levels in individuals (wether that depletion is age related or from the inevitable decline experienced by athletes during heavy endurance training blocks) back to ‘normal’ ranges. Hence it’s historic use in cycling I think.

So to answer the question, 30 x 50mg sachets really is a very minimal level for one individual for a month to see any benefit at all. ‘Microdosing’ with anything less would be pretty pointless ime.

There's a lot of statement of fact in this. Do you have any links showing that "Testogel is pretty much useless for enhancing strength, speed, muscle development etc"?

 

[King Boonen]

Sinkewitz scored a 24/1 T/E using a satchet [1], Kessler got it up to 85/1 with Andriol [2] - yet both drugs are much less potent than some injection. So bottom line is, it worked, it has always worked as intended.

Both ratios are also lower than the probability that this was the first and only order of T by anyone from Sky/British Cycling.

[1] https://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/testosteron-gel-radprofi-sinkewitz-gesteht-doping-a-497493.html
[2] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/doping-noch-mehr-testosteron-1.714113

Can you provide translations of these articles please. Failing a doping test and doping being effective are two different things.