CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

[42x16ss]

Re:

Josh purchased his own equipment. There was no doctor patient relationship. Josh was the doctor and the patient so no GMC rules broken by talking.

British Cycling invoice Sky for Freeman's services to Sky and Freeman will be self-employed invoicing British Cycling so Freeman is not PAYE employee as such. He will be employed like Cope was. i.e. self employed and keep his expenses separated between BC & Sky so BC accountant knows who pays what expense on the invoice he sends Tour Racing Ltd.

I admire your tenacity, it's almost quixotic.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Well, it's only a week until the month end. When the much delayed DCMS report was supposed to be landing. Now it'll be landing "within the coming weeks." Damian Collins - the brightest light in the DCMS's star chamber - has spoken to CN and says the report will be "critical over areas of concern that we’ve identified between British Cycling and Team Sky".

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Josh purchased his own equipment. There was no doctor patient relationship. Josh was the doctor and the patient so no GMC rules broken by talking.

British Cycling invoice Sky for Freeman's services to Sky and Freeman will be self-employed invoicing British Cycling so Freeman is not PAYE employee as such. He will be employed like Cope was. i.e. self employed and keep his expenses separated between BC & Sky so BC accountant knows who pays what expense on the invoice he sends Tour Racing Ltd.

There was a doctor patient relationship. The reason that they determined not to report the incident was that he was deemed to be 'ill' - indeed, Dr Peter's quote was "I suppose if I'm looking at safety issues I did think there was a really big risk this lad would be pushed over the edge. I stand by my decision...He is making very poor decisions because he is not well, and therefore we need to treat him first of all and then get to the bottom of it. But actually to put him through some kind of investigation or disciplinary at that point could've been very serious and damaged this lad's health."

They claim they decided not to report for fear of his mental health. Then they discussed his mental health to defend their position. Now, presumably he'd already published his own story by then, but I would be curious to hear from a doctor whether or not this means you are permitted to discuss the patient, or whether you still need to clear it with the patient before doing so.

Re. Freeman's position - do you know that he contracted to Sky via BC using, presumably, back to back contracts or just presuming? If he were a freelancer, he'd be perfectly able to invoice directly - cheaper for Sky, less administrative complications re. expsenses etc., liabilities much much clearer in the event of failure to perform, lower risk falling foul of tax man.

Well Sam, got any more obfuscation?

 

[Robert5091]

Re:

Well, it's only a week until the month end. When the much delayed DCMS report was supposed to be landing. Now it'll be landing "within the coming weeks." Damian Collins - the brightest light in the DCMS's star chamber - has spoken to CN and says the report will be "critical over areas of concern that we’ve identified between British Cycling and Team Sky".

Just hope they're not giving those criticized a chance to complain before publication. I expect Sky's lawyers are already writing up SDB's response.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Well, it's only a week until the month end. When the much delayed DCMS report was supposed to be landing. Now it'll be landing "within the coming weeks." Damian Collins - the brightest light in the DCMS's star chamber - has spoken to CN and says the report will be "critical over areas of concern that we’ve identified between British Cycling and Team Sky".

Just hope they're not giving those criticized a chance to complain before publication. I expect Sky's lawyers are already writing up SDB's response.

You don't believe people should have a right of reply? That seems like a strange position, why do you think that?

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

Josh purchased his own equipment. There was no doctor patient relationship. Josh was the doctor and the patient so no GMC rules broken by talking.

British Cycling invoice Sky for Freeman's services to Sky and Freeman will be self-employed invoicing British Cycling so Freeman is not PAYE employee as such. He will be employed like Cope was. i.e. self employed and keep his expenses separated between BC & Sky so BC accountant knows who pays what expense on the invoice he sends Tour Racing Ltd.

There was a doctor patient relationship. The reason that they determined not to report the incident was that he was deemed to be 'ill' - indeed, Dr Peter's quote was "I suppose if I'm looking at safety issues I did think there was a really big risk this lad would be pushed over the edge. I stand by my decision...He is making very poor decisions because he is not well, and therefore we need to treat him first of all and then get to the bottom of it. But actually to put him through some kind of investigation or disciplinary at that point could've been very serious and damaged this lad's health."

They claim they decided not to report for fear of his mental health. Then they discussed his mental health to defend their position. Now, presumably he'd already published his own story by then, but I would be curious to hear from a doctor whether or not this means you are permitted to discuss the patient, or whether you still need to clear it with the patient before doing so.

Re. Freeman's position - do you know that he contracted to Sky via BC using, presumably, back to back contracts or just presuming? If he were a freelancer, he'd be perfectly able to invoice directly - cheaper for Sky, less administrative complications re. expsenses etc., liabilities much much clearer in the event of failure to perform, lower risk falling foul of tax man.

I believe he can discuss the details of what happened at the hotel because Josh had already discussed it with the media and Steve Peters is allowed a right of response but can only discuss what happened at the hotel and his decision making process. Any sessions between Josh and himself remain confidential and will do so without Josh's written consent or a Judge's order.

 

[sniper]

Slightly off topic, but on a related note: It's a pity that not a single journalist ever went and corroborated the veracity of Froome's 2007 Fax. There would have been zero doctor patient confidentiality issues, indeed because Froome had already shared the data with the media. Would've been an easy one to head home, yet zero interest from the media. Go figure.

 

[yaco]

Re:

Slightly off topic, but on a related note: It's a pity that not a single journalist ever went and corroborated the veracity of Froome's 2007 Fax. There would have been zero doctor patient confidentiality issues, indeed because Froome had already shared the data with the media. Would've been an easy one to head home, yet zero interest from the media. Go figure.

Because not every snippet of information is deemed newsworthy. Lots of insignificant information is passed down many years later through interviews or the like.

 

[Robert5091]

Re: Re:

Well, it's only a week until the month end. When the much delayed DCMS report was supposed to be landing. Now it'll be landing "within the coming weeks." Damian Collins - the brightest light in the DCMS's star chamber - has spoken to CN and says the report will be "critical over areas of concern that we’ve identified between British Cycling and Team Sky".

Just hope they're not giving those criticized a chance to complain before publication. I expect Sky's lawyers are already writing up SDB's response.

You don't believe people should have a right of reply? That seems like a strange position, why do you think that?

Right to reply, yes. Right to water down, nuance, dilute before publication, no. (see e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...resident-brian-cookson-british-cycling-report )

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Well, it's only a week until the month end. When the much delayed DCMS report was supposed to be landing. Now it'll be landing "within the coming weeks." Damian Collins - the brightest light in the DCMS's star chamber - has spoken to CN and says the report will be "critical over areas of concern that we’ve identified between British Cycling and Team Sky".

Just hope they're not giving those criticized a chance to complain before publication. I expect Sky's lawyers are already writing up SDB's response.

You don't believe people should have a right of reply? That seems like a strange position, why do you think that?

Right to reply, yes. Right to water down, nuance, dilute before publication, no. (see e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...resident-brian-cookson-british-cycling-report )

That was a report on British Cycling commissioned by British Cycling and finalised and released by British Cycling. It's hardly surprising they dropped the most damning conclusions when they were in control of it. They have no control over the DCMS report as far as I can see.

 

[B_Ugli]

British Cycling said allegations of watering down the report were a matter for the authors of the independent review to comment upon. In a statement, it defended itself saying: “Change is very much in train at British Cycling. Damian Collins would be very welcome to come to the National Cycling Centre, whenever he would like, to witness the transformation that is under way.”

Ah what a culture of openness and transparency conveyed in a "you cant touch us Mr MP" kind of way.
That statement has former Labour spin doctor written all over it.

 

[Mayo from Mayo]

'The British Cycling chairman, Jonathan Browning, is to step down after only nine months in the role, conceding the organisation needs a new leadership team.

The 57-year-old, who replaced Bob Howden in February, insisted that he had steered British Cycling out of the “depths of a crisis” following allegations of bullying, sexism and abuse of Para-athletes last year - as well as the continuing fallout from the mysterious jiffy bag that was delivered by an employee to Bradley Wiggins in 2011.'

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/08/british-cycling-chairman-jonathan-browning-steps-down-after-nine-months-in-the-saddle

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Well, it's only a week until the month end. When the much delayed DCMS report was supposed to be landing. Now it'll be landing "within the coming weeks." Damian Collins - the brightest light in the DCMS's star chamber - has spoken to CN and says the report will be "critical over areas of concern that we’ve identified between British Cycling and Team Sky".

Just hope they're not giving those criticized a chance to complain before publication. I expect Sky's lawyers are already writing up SDB's response.

You don't believe people should have a right of reply? That seems like a strange position, why do you think that?

Right to reply, yes. Right to water down, nuance, dilute before publication, no. (see e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...resident-brian-cookson-british-cycling-report )

I fail to see the relevance of linking an article from Jun 2017 - Yes the Chair of British Cycling has stood down today but that's not the link.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Well, it's only a week until the month end. When the much delayed DCMS report was supposed to be landing. Now it'll be landing "within the coming weeks." Damian Collins - the brightest light in the DCMS's star chamber - has spoken to CN and says the report will be "critical over areas of concern that we’ve identified between British Cycling and Team Sky".

Just hope they're not giving those criticized a chance to complain before publication. I expect Sky's lawyers are already writing up SDB's response.

You don't believe people should have a right of reply? That seems like a strange position, why do you think that?

Right to reply, yes. Right to water down, nuance, dilute before publication, no. (see e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...resident-brian-cookson-british-cycling-report )

I fail to see the relevance of linking an article from Jun 2017 - Yes the Chair of British Cycling has stood down today but that's not the link.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/08/british-cycling-chairman-jonathan-browning-steps-down-after-nine-months-in-the-saddle

Must have been some ugly baby.

 

[Robert5091]

Time to lawyer up!
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/41939678

Former Great Britain Olympian Jess Varnish is suing UK Sport and British Cycling.

A source close to Varnish has told BBC Sport her legal action is based on claims the 26-year-old suffered sex discrimination, detriment for whistleblowing, victimisation and unfair dismissal.

The sprinter was dropped from British Cycling's elite programme last year, after which former technical director Shane Sutton was found to have used sexist language towards her.

Sutton resigned but was later cleared of eight of nine allegations.

BBC Sport revealed in March that Varnish was considering taking legal action against British Cycling, but she has since decided to expand her claims to include UK Sport.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Time to lawyer up!
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/41939678

Former Great Britain Olympian Jess Varnish is suing UK Sport and British Cycling.

A source close to Varnish has told BBC Sport her legal action is based on claims the 26-year-old suffered sex discrimination, detriment for whistleblowing, victimisation and unfair dismissal.

The sprinter was dropped from British Cycling's elite programme last year, after which former technical director Shane Sutton was found to have used sexist language towards her.

Sutton resigned but was later cleared of eight of nine allegations.

BBC Sport revealed in March that Varnish was considering taking legal action against British Cycling, but she has since decided to expand her claims to include UK Sport.

Good. I hope she wins big.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Under Secretary of State for Sport and Civil Society will be up in front of the Committee on Tuesday morning - could be entertaining

Witness

Tuesday 14 November 2017, Committee Room 18, Palace of Westminster
At 10.30am
Tracey Crouch MP, Under Secretary of State for Sport and Civil Society

Purpose of the session

As part of their inquiry into Sports Governance, the Digital, Culture Media and Sport Committee will question Tracey Crouch MP, Minister for Sport and Civil Society, on her response to the issues raised in evidence sessions with British Cycling, the FA and figures from the world of Paralympics.

MPs will use the session to highlight the general lack of grievance procedures and whistleblowing mechanisms for both athletes and staff across various sports.

Since allegations of bullying and harassment in sport have come to the fore throughout the inquiry, the Committee will also use the opportunity to explore whether the Government’s new Code for Sports Governance is doing enough to actively prevent such cases and protect athletes and staff.

 

[fmk_RoI]

I wonder how the final DCMS report, should it ever break free from constantly being pushed back and back and back, will address these points raised during Nicole Saptsead's appearance in March:

Q1623
Chair: The records of Team Sky buying Fluimucil, have you had any records of it ever buying Fluimucil via British Cycling in Manchester?
Nicole Sapstead: No.
Chair: No evidence at all that that was one of its sources?
Nicole Sapstead: No. My understanding of how this was ordered is there seems to be no record of it being ordered in the UK, which can only lead me to believe that Fluimucil only ever came from pharmacies abroad. I cannot prove or disprove that.

Q1625
Chair: We asked British Cycling if it would give us records relating to the quantities of drugs that are routinely stored in Manchester. It has not done that, but have you seen any evidence to suggest that Fluimucil is ordered by British Cycling and kept in its stores?
Nicole Sapstead: I have not, no.

Q1626
Chair: The information British Cycling has given you, as part of its investigation, is there is nothing to suggest that Fluimucil is a drug that it—
Nicole Sapstead: I have only seen invoices or records that relate to products that do not include Fluimucil.

Q1627
Chair: The records suggest a lot of triamcinolone is being ordered and used but no records about Fluimucil?
Nicole Sapstead: No.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

I wonder how the final DCMS report, should it ever break free from constantly being pushed back and back and back, will address these points raised during Nicole Saptsead's appearance in March:

Q1623
Chair: The records of Team Sky buying Fluimucil, have you had any records of it ever buying Fluimucil via British Cycling in Manchester?
Nicole Sapstead: No.
Chair: No evidence at all that that was one of its sources?
Nicole Sapstead: No. My understanding of how this was ordered is there seems to be no record of it being ordered in the UK, which can only lead me to believe that Fluimucil only ever came from pharmacies abroad. I cannot prove or disprove that.

Q1625
Chair: We asked British Cycling if it would give us records relating to the quantities of drugs that are routinely stored in Manchester. It has not done that, but have you seen any evidence to suggest that Fluimucil is ordered by British Cycling and kept in its stores?
Nicole Sapstead: I have not, no.

Q1626
Chair: The information British Cycling has given you, as part of its investigation, is there is nothing to suggest that Fluimucil is a drug that it—
Nicole Sapstead: I have only seen invoices or records that relate to products that do not include Fluimucil.

Q1627
Chair: The records suggest a lot of triamcinolone is being ordered and used but no records about Fluimucil?
Nicole Sapstead: No.

I imagine that there is lots of pressure being put on to exonerate all these Olympic medal winners and their coaches whom a lot have recieved honours from the Queen. Wont look good if that have to hand olympic medals back now would it!

It also makes a mockery of claims that the Russians are the dirty cheating dopers if Wiggins and co were just as dirty with tax payers pounds.

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/20/british-athletes-uk-sport-rights-damian-collins

'Britain’s elite athletes “have fewer rights than an Uber driver” and desperately need an independent watchdog to protect them, the chair of the digital, culture, media and sport select committee has warned. Damian Collins MP told the Guardian that the worrying number of bullying, sexism and racism cases inside the UK Sport system was directly linked to the lack of employment rights for athletes and it is not enough to hope for change to happen organically.

“We’ve seen too many cases of sports bodies effectively marking their own homework... There’s basically no outside scrutiny. If there was, they would have better procedures in place... Because they don’t really have those rights, the governing bodies have got away with not having the sort of proper grievance procedures that would be normal in a lot of professional workplaces. That is something that needs to change.” '

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/20/british-athletes-uk-sport-rights-damian-collins

'Britain’s elite athletes “have fewer rights than an Uber driver” and desperately need an independent watchdog to protect them, the chair of the digital, culture, media and sport select committee has warned. Damian Collins MP told the Guardian that the worrying number of bullying, sexism and racism cases inside the UK Sport system was directly linked to the lack of employment rights for athletes and it is not enough to hope for change to happen organically.

“We’ve seen too many cases of sports bodies effectively marking their own homework... There’s basically no outside scrutiny. If there was, they would have better procedures in place... Because they don’t really have those rights, the governing bodies have got away with not having the sort of proper grievance procedures that would be normal in a lot of professional workplaces. That is something that needs to change.” '

Least anybody thinks this is Collins's idea, it's not. It was suggested by Tanni Grey-Thompson‏ in her parasport report. Good to see it being picked up.

 

[tiredoldmaninthegym]

Re: Re:

Time to lawyer up!
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/41939678

Former Great Britain Olympian Jess Varnish is suing UK Sport and British Cycling.

A source close to Varnish has told BBC Sport her legal action is based on claims the 26-year-old suffered sex discrimination, detriment for whistleblowing, victimisation and unfair dismissal.

The sprinter was dropped from British Cycling's elite programme last year, after which former technical director Shane Sutton was found to have used sexist language towards her.

Sutton resigned but was later cleared of eight of nine allegations.

BBC Sport revealed in March that Varnish was considering taking legal action against British Cycling, but she has since decided to expand her claims to include UK Sport.

Good. I hope she wins big.

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/uk-sport-bosses-say-british-athletes-will-suffer-if-jess-varnish-wins-legal-case_sto6416632/story.shtml

Jess Varnish and her lawyers should perhaps ask UK Sport about ‘Mission 2012’ (London Olympic cycle) and ‘Mission 2016’ (Rio).

As all ageing NGB performance directors will recall, in UK Sport’s original Mission 2012 process a dedicated UK Sport performance adviser, often supported by an external facilitator, was supposed to work closely with each of the sports in their portfolio to assess collaboratively the status of that sport’s World Class Performance Programme across three dimensions (athlete; system; climate). This was done through a series of meetings with key personnel, attendance at training sessions, camps and competitions, and regular dialogue. Quarterly reports should have been produced (at least initially) – alongside other Mission 2012 documentation – and these will have been used to create the sport’s regularly updated Mission 2012 Panel Submission document, approved and agreed by senior UK Sport staff. This documentation across all sports also resulted in the ‘tracker board’ which journalists were invited annually to view at UK Sport’s HQ.

The original Mission 2012 process involved over 30 sets of questions, with each set looking at a defined element of the WCPP. Each element set included ‘exemplars’ against which it could be appraised, with this evaluation often resulting in further questions and requests for supporting evidence. Whilst for the smaller sports this initial facilitation session might take one full day, for the larger sports with more personnel it was not unusual for the introductory facilitation sessions to take two days or more. Consequently, and bearing in mind not only this ongoing, longitudinal process but also the supposedly dedicated UK Sport performance adviser, it would be impossible for UK Sport not to know what was happening within any given WCPP, if the Mission process was carried out as intended with rigour, integrity and due diligence. Note that theoretically at least, this Mission documentation supported and informed UK Sport’s funding decisions.

Checking back through the original Mission 2012 process and considering issues of sexism and bullying for example, I am reminded that there are element set questions (with exemplars) for: leadership; behaviours; monitoring perceptions; internal management; coaching workforce; athlete support; the coaching experience.

In terms of medical record keeping, there are elements and exemplars for: sports medicine support; injury and health management; anti-doping knowledge and culture.

A record of every sport’s Mission documentation should exist. I am aware that one FOI request to UK Sport for British Cycling’s Mission 2012 documentation was denied earlier this year. Liz Nicholl is on record claiming that the Mission 2012 process was modified to become “more evidence based” when it became Mission 2016. In that case, senior UK Sport staff should now have detailed documentary evidence on file regarding their evidence-based understanding of the culture and climate of every funded sport’s WCPP and each sport’s approach to individual athlete welfare, dating back to the sport’s first Mission 2012 submission at the beginning of the 2012 Olympic Cycle (i.e., 2009).

 

[Robert5091]

15 November 2017 http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...committee/news/chair-statement-cycling-17-19/

The Committee will be publishing its report on doping in sport shortly. This will be followed by a second report focusing on sports governance in the New Year

Zzzzz ....

 

[MartinGT]

Anything from Collins in the last few day?

 

[Robert5091]

Nowt on his twitter https://twitter.com/DamianCollins or the Committee's webpage http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/inquiry/