Cobbles in le Tour

[Libertine Seguros]

To me it's either regularly (every year or every even year) or never at all.
Just to minimize the chance of the winner being asterisked, "other contenders lost time on cobble" or something like that. I like stage races to have strong characteristics, great stage variety from year to year but with certain format and less randomness.

Why, what the hell? Would you asterisk "other contenders lost time on mountains" or "other contenders lost time in ITT"?

I can understand the TTT, since riders don't get their own times in those, but even so, the rules are about who finishes the race in the fastest time, within the rules (or at least not being caught breaking them, before this goes Clinic-ward).

The idea of a Grand Tour (in theory, not in practice) is that the race covers all the terrains that a country has to offer on its way around, and the rider who adapts best overall to the challenges that that throws up will be the winner. The pavé in the north is just as much a part of cycle racing in France as the Alps and the Pyrenées.

In recent years, "Grand Tour contenders" have basically averaged out to mean "people who can climb and TT", or "people who can climb well enough to overcome their bad TT". In the days of yore, domestique corps were not as professional or of as high a level, so leaders would be on their own longer. Flat stages were a good challenge and teams would often drill it in the flat stages to hurt the specialist climbers who didn't like being battered by crosswinds, being cramped in the large péloton, riding rough surfaces etc. - the likes of Lucho Herrera.

Maybe overuse of such stages will result in them seeming gimmicky, but at the moment the use of cobbles every so often is ASO actually being creative and trying different things with their course design: and this is definitely not something we should criticize them for. In fact, we should praise ASO for trying to be creative, because otherwise they'll just retreat into their shell and serve up bland repetitive garbage with 10 sprints, a few mountain stages which only use the same climbs every year, a couple of intermediate stages for breakaways so that the French can win some stages, and call it quits.

Next stop: some ribin in Brétagne, or at least a stage with the cobbled climb in Dinan in it. A real tough Quatre Jours type stage with Mont Noir, Mont des Cats, Mont Cassel and so on. A rouleur stage around Cherbourg with the exposed coastline and small hills with steep ramps. Some genuine mountain stages in the Massif Central. You know, all those things we ask for and never get.

 

[nhowson]

I would love for there to be cobbles every year, but it is crucial there is variation. The 2015 cobbles appear a lot tamer than the 2014 cobbles and I like that, it's similar to easier Alpine stages that come along every now and then.

 

[RedheadDane]

What I would love is if they were able to find some other (French) cobbles than those P-R ones. It makes sense that whenever the Tour starts in the Netherlands and/or Belgium they go across some cobbles (I'm not quite sure where exactly those next year are), but is it seriously only the Northern part of France that has cobbles? I know it's the Northern cobbles that have this air of myth to them, still; should be possible to find some others.

BTW, love how we all pretty much seem to agree that those cobbles on the Champs-Élysées, they ain't cobbles!

 

[pigoonse]

Why, what the hell? Would you asterisk "other contenders lost time on mountains" or "other contenders lost time in ITT"?

I can understand the TTT, since riders don't get their own times in those, but even so, the rules are about who finishes the race in the fastest time, within the rules (or at least not being caught breaking them, before this goes Clinic-ward).

The idea of a Grand Tour (in theory, not in practice) is that the race covers all the terrains that a country has to offer on its way around, and the rider who adapts best overall to the challenges that that throws up will be the winner. The pavé in the north is just as much a part of cycle racing in France as the Alps and the Pyrenées.

In recent years, "Grand Tour contenders" have basically averaged out to mean "people who can climb and TT", or "people who can climb well enough to overcome their bad TT". In the days of yore, domestique corps were not as professional or of as high a level, so leaders would be on their own longer. Flat stages were a good challenge and teams would often drill it in the flat stages to hurt the specialist climbers who didn't like being battered by crosswinds, being cramped in the large péloton, riding rough surfaces etc. - the likes of Lucho Herrera.

Maybe overuse of such stages will result in them seeming gimmicky, but at the moment the use of cobbles every so often is ASO actually being creative and trying different things with their course design: and this is definitely not something we should criticize them for. In fact, we should praise ASO for trying to be creative, because otherwise they'll just retreat into their shell and serve up bland repetitive garbage with 10 sprints, a few mountain stages which only use the same climbs every year, a couple of intermediate stages for breakaways so that the French can win some stages, and call it quits.

Next stop: some ribin in Brétagne, or at least a stage with the cobbled climb in Dinan in it. A real tough Quatre Jours type stage with Mont Noir, Mont des Cats, Mont Cassel and so on. A rouleur stage around Cherbourg with the exposed coastline and small hills with steep ramps. Some genuine mountain stages in the Massif Central. You know, all those things we ask for and never get.

@Libertine Seguros,
I have only been to Europe once and unfortunately I was too young to take very much in. Your posts, like the one above, are very helpful information on many levels and your thoughts and opinions are interesting and energetic. Particularly appreciate the bits of geography and cycling history included.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What I would love is if they were able to find some other (French) cobbles than those P-R ones. It makes sense that whenever the Tour starts in the Netherlands and/or Belgium they go across some cobbles (I'm not quite sure where exactly those next year are), but is it seriously only the Northern part of France that has cobbles? I know it's the Northern cobbles that have this air of myth to them, still; should be possible to find some others.

BTW, love how we all pretty much seem to agree that those cobbles on the Champs-Élysées, they ain't cobbles!

In terms of the long flat stretches à la Roubaix, there probably aren't enough stretches long enough further south to make that much of a "real" cobbled stage. There are, however, some fortified town type cobbled climbs (you know the kind, like Citadel de Briançon, Ávila or Fayence). I'm sure I could be proven wrong (and there are plenty of secteurs pavées in the north that aren't used in Roubaix too), but the thing with a lot of the pavé is that it is there because those roads are no longer in regular use; so much of it has now been tarmacked over where the roads are commonly used. The Friends of Roubaix and the cycling tradition has helped keep some of the pavé sectors cobbled (albeit not as much as it has helped keep some of the worst stretches usable - the "keep our road cobbled for the cyclists" appeals have typically been more Belgian than French), so without the cobbled roads having the same historical significance in the sport further south, less reason to maintain them or preserve them as cobbles, so they'll either have been tarmacked over or fallen into abject disrepair.

Having done the 21 ESP climbs for the Vuelta thread and seen the two 21 HC climbs for the Tour threads, I did think at one point of doing a thread introducing great cobbled bergs outside of Belgium. Thinking about Steiler Wand von Meerane, Shibden Wall, Vysoka Srbská, Mont Cassel, Dinan, Trooper Lane, Balsamine, Montée du Gründ etc..

Does Denmark have any?

 

[RedheadDane]

Would it be possible to repair some of the cobbled sections that have fallen into disrepair?

Are you asking if Denmark has cobbles, or if we have cobbled bergs? If it's the last then; have you ever been to Denmark? We don't really do bergs...
The cobbles we do have are more in the style of Champs-Élysées than in the style of the pavées.

 

[nhowson]

Does anyone know how hard the 2015 cobbles actually are?

 

[RownhamHill]

Why, what the hell? Would you asterisk "other contenders lost time on mountains" or "other contenders lost time in ITT"?

I can understand the TTT, since riders don't get their own times in those, but even so, the rules are about who finishes the race in the fastest time, within the rules (or at least not being caught breaking them, before this goes Clinic-ward).

The idea of a Grand Tour (in theory, not in practice) is that the race covers all the terrains that a country has to offer on its way around, and the rider who adapts best overall to the challenges that that throws up will be the winner. The pavé in the north is just as much a part of cycle racing in France as the Alps and the Pyrenées.

In recent years, "Grand Tour contenders" have basically averaged out to mean "people who can climb and TT", or "people who can climb well enough to overcome their bad TT". In the days of yore, domestique corps were not as professional or of as high a level, so leaders would be on their own longer. Flat stages were a good challenge and teams would often drill it in the flat stages to hurt the specialist climbers who didn't like being battered by crosswinds, being cramped in the large péloton, riding rough surfaces etc. - the likes of Lucho Herrera.

Maybe overuse of such stages will result in them seeming gimmicky, but at the moment the use of cobbles every so often is ASO actually being creative and trying different things with their course design: and this is definitely not something we should criticize them for. In fact, we should praise ASO for trying to be creative, because otherwise they'll just retreat into their shell and serve up bland repetitive garbage with 10 sprints, a few mountain stages which only use the same climbs every year, a couple of intermediate stages for breakaways so that the French can win some stages, and call it quits.

Next stop: some ribin in Brétagne, or at least a stage with the cobbled climb in Dinan in it. A real tough Quatre Jours type stage with Mont Noir, Mont des Cats, Mont Cassel and so on. A rouleur stage around Cherbourg with the exposed coastline and small hills with steep ramps. Some genuine mountain stages in the Massif Central. You know, all those things we ask for and never get.

Hi Libertine. I'm not sure if I saw your reaction to the overall tour route, but interested in what you think of the overall package, as you seem to be relatively positive about ASO in this post? What do you make of the whole thing?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The Belgian sector is wide and well-maintained.

Artres-Famars is the Rue Bermerain. Comparatively short, but rough and will be a challenge.

This is a photo of the Querenaing sector.

And this is the Saulzoir sector.

Saint-Python and the Quievy sector are used in Roubaix early on. Saint-Python is ** (good condition but a bit muddy later on), the Viesly sector is a combination of the Quievy sector (***) and the Saint-Python-Quievy sector (****).

This is the last sector, very straight.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Hi Libertine. I'm not sure if I saw your reaction to the overall tour route, but interested in what you think of the overall package, as you seem to be relatively positive about ASO in this post? What do you make of the whole thing?

An absolute travesty, and there must be a few that should lose their jobs over such gross incompetency.

I praise them attempting to show some creativity by using the cobbles, but elsewhere there is very little creativity to be seen. They have a new summit finish, so they do the most uninspiring one-climb stage to it, to enable them to put all the attention on underused climbs like the Tourmalet. They put a TTT in the race after a week when some teams will already be decimated, thus making an unfair format even more unfair. They have three Alpine stages all in the exact same region. They do a Unipublic trick of seeing a stage that worked and copying it wholesale without any attention to why it worked on that particular day. They play it safe with the big MTFs, with La Toussuire and Alpe d'Huez. The Massif Central is completely ignored again. There are more uphill finishes than the race really needs (on either the Huy or the Mende stage would it have killed them to descend back into the town?) while the mountain stages are anæmic.

The first few days could be quite interesting, prologue (about time we had one of those back, they had rather fallen out of fashion), echelon-baiting stage, puncheur stage, cobbled stage. After that? It all falls apart fast.

 

[nhowson]

The Belgian sector is wide and well-maintained.

Artres-Famars is the Rue Bermerain. Comparatively short, but rough and will be a challenge.

This is a photo of the Querenaing sector.

And this is the Saulzoir sector.

Saint-Python and the Quievy sector are used in Roubaix early on. Saint-Python is ** (good condition but a bit muddy later on), the Viesly sector is a combination of the Quievy sector (***) and the Saint-Python-Quievy sector (****).

This is the last sector, very straight.

Last sector looks a bit weak, unfortunately.

 

[nhowson]

They play it safe with the big MTFs, with La Toussuire and Alpe d'Huez.

The end to the La Toussuire stage would be better if they went up the Madeleine and then down into a finish at Albertville I think.

 

[TANK91]

Cobbles have no place in the TDF. It is russian roulette for the GC guys. Nibali is looked at as a hero for last year, good luck doing that sort of stage again. Nibali is quite lucky as crashes don't affect him, he crashed in WC, Giro 2013 downhill in the wet he also crashed and it was a big crash. It is a skill riding cobbles but i would rather they not be in their if we want the best riders not on too much of a deficit. Imagine Contador losing 3 mins on a crap stage like that and then losing the TDF by a few seconds.

 

[MatParker117]

An absolute travesty, and there must be a few that should lose their jobs over such gross incompetency.

I praise them attempting to show some creativity by using the cobbles, but elsewhere there is very little creativity to be seen. They have a new summit finish, so they do the most uninspiring one-climb stage to it, to enable them to put all the attention on underused climbs like the Tourmalet. They put a TTT in the race after a week when some teams will already be decimated, thus making an unfair format even more unfair. They have three Alpine stages all in the exact same region. They do a Unipublic trick of seeing a stage that worked and copying it wholesale without any attention to why it worked on that particular day. They play it safe with the big MTFs, with La Toussuire and Alpe d'Huez. The Massif Central is completely ignored again. There are more uphill finishes than the race really needs (on either the Huy or the Mende stage would it have killed them to descend back into the town?) while the mountain stages are anæmic.

The first few days could be quite interesting, prologue (about time we had one of those back, they had rather fallen out of fashion), echelon-baiting stage, puncheur stage, cobbled stage. After that? It all falls apart fast.

If the weather doesn't cooperate the first week will fall apart as well.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Cobbles have no place in the TDF. It is russian roulette for the GC guys. Nibali is looked at as a hero for last year, good luck doing that sort of stage again. Nibali is quite lucky as crashes don't affect him, he crashed in WC, Giro 2013 downhill in the wet he also crashed and it was a big crash. It is a skill riding cobbles but i would rather they not be in their if we want the best riders not on too much of a deficit. Imagine Contador losing 3 mins on a crap stage like that and then losing the TDF by a few seconds.

Agreed TANK91

 

[cineteq]

Cobbles have no place in the TDF. It is russian roulette for the GC guys. Nibali is looked at as a hero for last year, good luck doing that sort of stage again.

Last year? Gee, people continue to confuse luck with skill.

 

[Red Rick]

If they had cobbles anywhere else than in Northern France, I wouldn't mind a stage with a few cobbles (nothing too major) every year. Now it's a major problem they have to go the north to get there

 

[TANK91]

Last year? Gee, people continue to confuse luck with skill.

If Nibali gets took out next year the day before like Froome and then is unable to ride cobbles well because of an injury i await you're response. What happen'd last year is like me winning the lottery and only you can't see that. Not one rival but two rivals were better and they were robbed before a Mountain was reached.

His TDF turned me off him he won it easily and he tried making it look a point by attacking but he was not fooling me saying i had the best shape ever, how much shape does one need to beat the one of the worst podium's in the history of the TDF.

Please do tell me why Nibali won't be doing the Giro? I cannot wait for you're response to that. He is Italian says he will do the Giro/TDF yet you can tell in all his interviews he is slowly telling us he will do the TDF. He even says if anyone can do it Contador can so clearly he is doing the TDF.

 

[Netserk]

Because he is the defending Tour winner. Quite natural for him to then do his best to be in the best shape he can for next year's edition.

 

[TANK91]

Because he is the defending Tour winner. Quite natural for him to then do his best to be in the best shape he can for next year's edition.

Yeah he as the right, i bet he would do the Giro if Contador did not turn up. Nibali is probably making the right choice as if he does Giro and comes 2nd he as wasted his peak. If Contador was not their Nibali could be almost sure for another Giro then head to the TDF with an excuse for losing.

 

[nhowson]

Yeah he as the right, i bet he would do the Giro if Contador did not turn up. Nibali is probably making the right choice as if he does Giro and comes 2nd he as wasted his peak. If Contador was not their Nibali could be almost sure for another Giro then head to the TDF with an excuse for losing.

Not going to consider Froome or Quintana in anything at all?

 

[42x16ss]

Not going to consider Froome or Quintana in anything at all?

Contador is the only one seriously considering the Giro. Quintana and Froome look like they will be focusing on the Tour, despite Froome's protest at the lack of TT kms. If Nibali has to go up against Contador in the Giro and goes for the win, he may end up going far too deep and only getting 2-3rd and ruining his Tour defence to boot. If Contador doesn't race he can go in as the red hot favourite and it doesn't matter too much if his Tour defence fails if he's already got a GT win for the year.

 

[nhowson]

Contador is the only one seriously considering the Giro. Quintana and Froome look like they will be focusing on the Tour, despite Froome's protest at the lack of TT kms. If Nibali has to go up against Contador in the Giro and goes for the win, he may end up going far too deep and only getting 2-3rd and ruining his Tour defence to boot. If Contador doesn't race he can go in as the red hot favourite and it doesn't matter too much if his Tour defence fails if he's already got a GT win for the year.

TANK91 isn't factoring them in to the Tour either though.