Cobo Talk Only

[Duartista]

That article was largely bogus though. Blood transfusions aren't placebos, no matter how naturally high your hematocrit is.

The placebo quote is certainly odd, but that is from a lab director, whereas the bulk of the article seems to be based on talking to the Guardia Civil officer in charge of the Puerto investigation.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Just looked it up - may not have been Unzue, but someone high up in the team:



http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/news/blog/on-paco-mancebo-and-operacion-puerto-carlos-arribas

OFF TOPIC

Great read. It just shows who the scapegoats were and who was allowed to go on. What a mess. It would have been much better if Ullrich, Basso, Rasmussen (not in Puerto) etc. were allowed to ride on. All we got was less talented "winners" who did the same (Landis) or more (Contador) in the absecence of the true favourites. What a mess, completely f***ed up Grand Tours and CG´s. The height was reached in 2008 when FSchleck, Sastre and Kohl bloodied their way to Alpe, while the champs sat at home.

 

[luckyboy]

- did a stonking Time Trial that at the time was described by a commentator as “overachieving”

Well his 'stonking' TT 3 minutes down in 23rd place isn't out of the ordinary for Cobo.
-Vuelta 2009 final TT, he was 20th in Toledo, losing 1'23" to Millar in 26km.
-Same race, he lost 1'53" to Cancellara over 30kms in Valencia.
-Tour 2007 54km in Albi, 15th place, 1'59" down on Evans. Ahead of Millar, Menchov, Voigt, Hincapie.
-Same race, 31st place losing nearly 5 minutes to Leipheimer over 56km (though only 2 riders were within 2 minutes).

His time trial certainly wasn't a miraculous performance.

Anyway, I could describe his time trial as "way below what he could've done" but that doesn't make it true.

-is performing in a Geox squad widely ridiculed for its lack of tactical nous and pre-race preparation – despite the team shortcomings he excels nonetheless.

Ok, so you've just made something up here.

-back to back attacks on consecutive stages pulling away from the entire peloton at full tilt (i.e. establishing he is the strongest rider bar none on both days, including yesterday, a net gain on Wiggins & Froome despite them taking turns to chase him down in the last few kilometres on a relatively modest gradient of 7-9% that suited the Sky pair better.

Gee, when have we ever seen someone attack and hold off two riders before? Amazing. And since when has any mountain suited Wiggokourov better than a climber? Well since he discovered rice cakes and weight loss in 2009 aged 29. Froomechkin discovered his amazing ability in the mountains a few weeks ago seemingly.

-despite taking it fairly easy (i.e. looking over his shoulder repeatedly, arguably sandbagging until the last 3-4kms) on Angliru, he still bet 2008 vintage clenbuterol Contador’s time up the climb and clocked an almighty 6.2 w/kgs for the entirety of the climb (according to the power to weight thread). We can but wonder what was possible if he'd gone flat out from the time of his initial attack.
-his physical appearance in both attacks gave minimal indication of any physical exertion and, much more importantly, this was corroborated by no discernable loss of speed due to fatigue at any point.

I've watched Angliru 3 times, and I can't see Cobo sandbagging there And how a rider looks is no proof of doping.

-has performed for a team that was so blighted by doping in the 2008 Tour, that it was withdrawn

This exact same quote can be attributed to Froome's team at the time, except the team hung around for another year.
And if you're going to bring guilt by association into it by talking about Saunier Duval, then we better mention Barloworld. The team who were run by Claudio Corti (manager at Saeco when Oil For Drugs blew up, manager of Lampre when several of their riders went over 50%). Duenas tested positive while he was there, and a 'small pharmacy' was found in his room.


Your points seem pretty biased towards Froome in this instance. Your summary of Froome is horrendously simplistic in comparison with the minutiae of Cobo's career you have pored over.

 

[hrotha]

- back to back attacks on consecutive stages pulling away from the entire peloton at full tilt (i.e. establishing he is the strongest rider bar none on both days, including yesterday, a net gain on Wiggins & Froome despite them taking turns to chase him down in the last few kilometres on a relatively modest gradient of 7-9% that suited the Sky pair better.

Actually, on the Farrapona, shortly after his initial attack he stopped gaining time. When he reached De la Fuente, he was almost spent. Also, a gradient of 7-9% is pretty significant, and the impact of taking turns in such conditions is not that high.

- his physical appearance in both attacks gave minimal indication of any physical exertion and, much more importantly, this was corroborated by no discernable loss of speed due to fatigue at any point.

Physical appareance is a poor judge. We've had dopers who looked completely dead after a stage, and Moncoutié rarely looks too bad. And as I said above, he did lose speed yesterday - it's harder to tell on the Angliru.

- despite taking it fairly easy (i.e. looking over his shoulder repeatedly, arguably sandbagging until the last 3-4kms) on Angliru, he still bet 2008 vintage clenbuterol Contador’s time up the climb and clocked an almighty 6.2 w/kgs for the entirety of the climb (according to the power to weight thread). We can but wonder what was possible if he'd gone flat out from the time of his initial attack.

He didn't beat Contador's time, he was +30 seconds slower. And again, looks can be deceiving.

- did a stonking Time Trial that at the time was described by a commentator as “overachieving”

Correct. But then, what about Froome? Sure, he had shown to be a decent time-trialist, but he came 2nd, beating Wiggins.

- is performing in a Geox squad widely ridiculed for its lack of tactical nous and pre-race preparation – despite the team shortcomings he excels nonetheless.

Huh?

The rest of your points I certainly agree with, and the evidence does suggest Cobo is a doper, despite his natural talent which I believe to be pretty high (which obviously can't be really proven), but I don't think they suggest Froome's performance is more believable by itself (i.e. isolated from their team history).

 

[brollebol]

You seem intent on proving that Cobo is definitely doping, and meanwhile proving that Froome definitely isn't doping. Their performances go hand in hand.

- back to back attacks on consecutive stages pulling away from the entire peloton at full tilt (i.e. establishing he is the strongest rider bar none on both days, including yesterday, a net gain on Wiggins & Froome despite them taking turns to chase him down in the last few kilometres on a relatively modest gradient of 7-9% that suited the Sky pair better.

Froome has been pacing Wiggins up the mountains for 2 weeks, I'd say his exertions are equal to Cobo's. Also today Froome proved that he could've done better the past days if he hadn't stayed with Wiggins. Also he is not a small climber like Purito who gets dropped by diesels on a smaller gradient, Cobo is quite the diesel himself. (Look at his ITT results over the years and climbing style, always in the saddle.)

- his physical appearance in both attacks gave minimal indication of any physical exertion and, much more importantly, this was corroborated by no discernable loss of speed due to fatigue at any point.

His "appearance" has nothing to do with how much effort he is putting into the climb. Have you seen Bauke Mollema ride? He's like the hunchback on a bike but he's dropping riders that in comparison "appear" to be on a friday afternoon milkrun.

- despite taking it fairly easy (i.e. looking over his shoulder repeatedly, arguably sandbagging until the last 3-4kms) on Angliru, he still bet 2008 vintage clenbuterol Contador’s time up the climb and clocked an almighty 6.2 w/kgs for the entirety of the climb (according to the power to weight thread). We can but wonder what was possible if he'd gone flat out from the time of his initial attack.

Yeah right? He looked back a few times! That's obvious proof of him freewheeling up the mountain... How is 6.2 w/kgs "almighty but Froome, who was only 45 seconds down after being held back the entire climb by having to pace Wiggins up, did a believable ride? If 6.2 w/kgs is dodgy at least admit that Froome's ride was at least suspicious.

- did a stonking Time Trial that at the time was described by a commentator as “overachieving”

Wait, we're talking about Cobo here right? The guy who has done some respectable TT's in his day. He's the one overachieving with a 23rd!! place? Surely it wasn't Froome who was overachieving who came 2nd in the TT after never showing such skill in a TT before beating known TT specialists Wiggins and Cancellara...

- is performing in a Geox squad widely ridiculed for its lack of tactical nous and pre-race preparation – despite the team shortcomings he excels nonetheless.

This isn't about team tactics, or training schedules. I'm sure he did most of his training on his own, just like he had to ride up that mountain himself. Or did sky have some super genius strategy? "Wait... yes... I've got it... we have to pace up this hill in pursuit of Cobo..."

- has performed for a team that was so blighted by doping in the 2008 Tour, that it was withdrawn


- on said tour, was the only human being capable of staying with a clearly doping Piepolli in one of the most notoriously farcical finishes in modern times.


- on leaving his team he goes from a Top 10 Vuelta finisher in 2009 to a complete nobody in 2010, then goes to GT heir apparent in 2011 when reunited with his old buddies apparently connected to the 2008 'glory' days.

No argument with anything you say here.

I trust that this comparison leaves little doubt that a suggestion that Froome & Cobo are peas in a pod is way off mark (although in no way is that evidence of Froome riding unaided). Each case/rider has to be studied alone on their own merits. Also, please note, I have no bias with regards folk of Kenyan or Spanish origin (although I do have a soft spot for the Kenyan Rugby 7s team). My favourite riders are probably Nibali & Sastre.

The one thing this comparison does leave little doubt of is the feeling that you are British. Somehow you fail to see that the performances of Cobo and Froome are in fact quite similar. And as (I believe) Libertine Seguros stated before at least Cobo HAS a history preforming well in mountains and stage races, albeit in teams with known doping history. I'm in no way trying to defend Cobo, because his history as a clean rider is simply laughable. But then again so is stating that Cobo is obviously a doper and stating that Froome is probably clean.

 

[Berzin]

Cobo out climbing Wigans and Froome by a little over a minute on Angrilu is a perfectly reasonable result.

This begs the question-when did Wiggo become a feared climber?

He is running on the fumes of a potential that may not exist. Not from the way he rides, at least.

He received a lot of hype after the Tour a few years ago and no real amazing or even consistent results after that. Just a lot of talk about how he's focusing on the Tour and that's it.

The press and his fans have made him out to be a rider he quite frankly is not.

 

[luckyboy]

Yeah people are forgetting Wiggins' past transformation in all of this.

 

[hfer07]

I only have a couple things to say about Cobo:
1-)We should ask the Almighty David Millar to tell us about Cobo's Doping program
2-) I personally have known Cobo's qualities from back to 07 when he rode a great season is Spain with victories in Castilla y Leon & Murcia-his aggressive style is a trade mark-not a suddenly "found" ability-as many here may try to suggest-he challenged non other than Contador & was good to see those two putting the efforts to drop one another.....
3-) The 08 Tour made him an "evil" character. since his team mates literally "fvcked" the team up -and I thought he was going down too-but surprisingly they didn't find anything on him-was estrange but he somehow survived the S-D dismantling and kept on going with Fuji-Servetto-he rode well & then he went to Caisse...
4-) Caisse almost dried his career because of the team support he was obligated to provide to Valverde-the "monarchic" leader of the team-he knew he had more skills to seek his own glory, but she seems to be unfitting with the wrong teams....
5-) Gianetti is dirty -so I won't expect him to be "clean" at all-but as I mentioned above-he should have been popped in 08 had he doped "at the same level" as Piopoli & Ricco did back then....

 

[Escarabajo]

Just looked it up - may not have been Unzue, but someone high up in the team:



http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/news/blog/on-paco-mancebo-and-operacion-puerto-carlos-arribas

Thanks for the article. Great reading.

One thing caught my attention:

“The one I pity the most is Mancebo. Do you know that he naturally has sauch a high hematocrit level, of 49, that we could not give him anything because he would been detected easily? We only gave him a placebo and little else. We’ve been cheating him for a few years.

So what was in the blood bags?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

So what was in the blood bags?

I guess stuff to not have it fall. I remember that it was found out that Rasmussen did the tour the "won" with a surprisingly low hematocit level, like 39 or 38, but it just wouldn't drop over the tour. Which should actually happen.

 

[Parrot23]

The one mitigating factor I can find on Froome is that he might have spent years continuously, his formative years, at high altitude in Kenya.

Also, I found this on his first Tour in '08:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008...g.tourdefrance

"Froome was one of only four Barloworld riders to finish in Paris - and the highest placed, in 84th. He even briefly escaped in a four-man break on the Champs-Elysées...."

"Froome shone on the Alpe-d'Huez stage, confirming his reputation as a climber by surviving for a while in the company of Denis Menchov before finishing a creditable 31st at the summit. "I'd have liked to have been at the front more but I'm happy to finish my first Tour, especially in such difficult circumstances," he said."

Also see CN's caption of pic on Alpe d'Huez stage in 08 Tour, mentioning his altitude background: "Barloworld's Froome showed that he has talent in the mountains and his Kenyan high altitude background comes in handy."

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photo...ome_Huez_PhSpt

31st the first time up Alpe d'Huez ain't bad, but beating Cancellara in the time trial here, well, what can one say? Then again, Phinney and Fulgsang nearly did too, and Spartacus ain't his best right now, esp. in an ultra tough Vuelta.

 

[Escarabajo]

I guess stuff to not have it fall. I remember that it was found out that Rasmussen did the tour the "won" with a surprisingly low hematocit level, like 39 or 38, but it just wouldn't drop over the tour. Which should actually happen.

I doubt it. They just inject saline solution to dilute it and make it look like is constant when is not.

Maybe small blood amounts were injected to help the program, but it was still blood, and it did help performance IMHO. Look in 2005. He was much better than in previous years.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I doubt it. They just inject saline solution to dilute it and make it look like is constant when is not.
.

But why would you do this during the tour? I mean using this to cover up long term doping maybe. But why during a GT when it's supposed to come down?

 

[Escarabajo]

But why would you do this during the tour? I mean using this to cover up long term doping maybe. But why during a GT when it's supposed to come down?

Because with the transfusion it would go up not down. So by diluting it it would make it look like is flattish and the off-score would be kept in check. The other parameter to keep in check is the reticulocyte count, so by microdosing some EPO you would take care of that. I assume that Mancebo was doing some of that too.

 

[Midnightfright]

This seems to be slowly morphing into a froome/cobo who dopes more ****ing contest.

 

[spalco]

Maybe those people don't like Wiggins much.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. If you're in the "anyone but Wiggins" camp or Spanish I get it, but otherwise I don't.

 

[Paco_P]

The placebo quote is certainly odd, but that is from a lab director, whereas the bulk of the article seems to be based on talking to the Guardia Civil officer in charge of the Puerto investigation.

I wonder, is it actually against (anybody's) formal rules to get a blood transfusion alone? A blood transfusion alone would help, but perhaps it's only the presence of EPO that makes it against the rules/law.

 

[frenchfry]

I think the TDF organisers might hav been right in not selecting Geox.

 

[webvan]

I wonder what Menchov is thinking...in 2007 he was totally disgusted on the Tour after having had to work for Rasmussen, history repeating itself?

 

[Ferminal]

I think the TDF organisers might hav been right in not selecting Geox.

Wouldn't have wanted them to upstage Europcar would we?

 

[Duartista]

Cobo vs the clinic

 

[Anonymous]

Me like cobo.

 

[la.margna]

cobo rode a 32cassette on the angliru. makes a huge difference.

was at contador level as amateur.

if he wins the vuelta, great answer to uci for fuc..ing them with the pro tour license after hiring sastre and menchov.

if he gets caught, even better, than it's probably definitely over for gianetti. one less dodgy people to be cleaned out of the sport before hog, unzue, rihs, ...

 

[Frosty]

3-) The 08 Tour made him an "evil" character. since his team mates literally "fvcked" the team up -and I thought he was going down too-but surprisingly they didn't find anything on him-was estrange but he somehow survived the S-D dismantling and kept on going with Fuji-Servetto-he rode well & then he went to Caisse...

Do we know how many tests were done on him? Was he tested for coming second on the stage for instance?

 

[Ryan.Welwyn]

Right. I have a view different ideas of what could be going on here regarding this Froome, cobo, Wiggins debate.

To start with, I'm British but 1/4 Spanish, I've always supported Spanish riders like Contador, Freire, Flecha, Valverde (before I was too aware of the circumstances) and I used to follow cobo's progress quite closely as well. So I'm not really very biased due to nationality or anything.

Yet today had me literally coming close to throwing things at my TV.

Watching Cobo ride away from the rest with 6.5 km to go on a climb like that after his performances in the last couple of years just wasn't right.

To start with he barely looked like he was breathing going up that climb, naturally when you start getting near the top of a climb like that you will be breathing heavily. Contador does visibly start to tire and waver a bit towards the top of climbs with his attacks, the further he goes the more uncomfortable he looks. He'll be in and out of the saddle more and will start rocking around in the saddle.

Cobo however seemed to sustain the same style the whole way up, hardly getting out of the saddle at all, while Froome, Wiggins, Menchov, Poels were zigzagging all of the way up the harder parts of the climb. And when Cobo reached the top he saluted the crowd and looked as fresh as a daisy. Whilst Poels could barely lift his hand of the bars to celebrate second and everyone else that followed looked to be on their knees. And they went up at least 48 seconds slower!

And regarding Froome. I know his sudden rise to form may seem suspicious but if I'm honest I kind of expected some of these kind of performances from Sky by now. They do put a massive amount of focus into everything they do and I didn't expect the effects of their attitude to cycling to come through properly until some way into their second year, when many of the riders will have adjusted to the changes and can start reaping the benefits. Brailsford had done it with the track team before hand, an area when you have to work even harder for even smaller differences. So there should be no reason why he couldn't produce some star road riders as well. Wiggins has shown he can excel in 2 different teams now, both teams with some of the strictest anti-doping programmes. I don't think there is any doubt that he is definitely clean. I sent an application in for possibly joining the British cycling junior track team next year and I've already realised that they are so strict on testing from such a young age. Wiggins has been through that system for 10 years+ now and I don't think there is any way he could hide anything from anyone.

And as to those who are saying Chris Froome was a 'useless' rider before this race I think you are mistaken. He finished 12th in the young rider catagory in his first Tour De France in 2008, he came 36th overall and 7th young rider in the 2009 Giro. And he's proven that he can time trial, coming second in the British National TT championships in 2010 as well as 5th in the TT at the Commonwealth Games, and a 9th in the Tour of Switzerland TT this year and has also had top 15s in tough stage races such as Vuelta a Castilla y León and the tour of Romandy. So there was talent there from a young age, and he's still not an old rider so maybe he's coming into his prime with the help of Team Sky?

Ryan