Cobo Talk Only

[GJB123]

I only have a couple things to say about Cobo:
1-)We should ask the Almighty David Millar to tell us about Cobo's Doping program
2-) I personally have known Cobo's qualities from back to 07 when he rode a great season is Spain with victories in Castilla y Leon & Murcia-his aggressive style is a trade mark-not a suddenly "found" ability-as many here may try to suggest-he challenged non other than Contador & was good to see those two putting the efforts to drop one another.....
3-) The 08 Tour made him an "evil" character. since his team mates literally "fvcked" the team up -and I thought he was going down too-but surprisingly they didn't find anything on him-was estrange but he somehow survived the S-D dismantling and kept on going with Fuji-Servetto-he rode well & then he went to Caisse...
4-) Caisse almost dried his career because of the team support he was obligated to provide to Valverde-the "monarchic" leader of the team-he knew he had more skills to seek his own glory, but she seems to be unfitting with the wrong teams....
5-) Gianetti is dirty -so I won't expect him to be "clean" at all-but as I mentioned above-he should have been popped in 08 had he doped "at the same level" as Piopoli & Ricco did back then....

All very nice about Cobo and you obviously have a liking for the guy, and why wouldn't you? But could explain to me what, if anything, Cobo did pre-2007? AFAIK he turned pro in 2004 and did just about didley in those years and then all of a sudden, BOOM, in 2007 he starts blowing away other riders. He dis so until SD folded and din't do didley again at Caisse and no he is riding up Angliru like he is going for a nice sunday afternoon ride and again Gianetti is his DS. There is something fishy going on.

Regards
GJ

 

[Ferminal]

All very nice about Cobo and you obviously have a liking for the guy, and why wouldn't you? But could explain to me what, if anything, Cobo did pre-2007? AFAIK he turned pro in 2004 and did just about didley in those years and then all of a sudden, BOOM, in 2007 he starts blowing away other riders. He dis so until SD folded and din't do didley again at Caisse and no he is riding up Angliru like he is going for a nice sunday afternoon ride and again Gianetti is his DS. There is something fishy going on.

Regards
GJ

So Gianetti only started doping riders in 2007? Cobo had some nice results prior to that, but he wasn't consistently great, which is understandable for someone at that age.

 

[GJB123]

So Gianetti only started doping riders in 2007? Cobo had some nice results prior to that, but he wasn't consistently great, which is understandable for someone at that age.

"Some" being the operative word here. Look at his results and he did nothing 2004 (injury?), barely anything in 2005, 2-3 results in 2006 and then BOOM 2007. Now if he really was such a talent U23, matching the likes of Contador, where the hell was he in 2004-2006. I would at least expect him to show very well in the smaller Spanish tours and getting some decent day results if not GC results. There was barely anything until 2007 and the onslaught of CERA.

http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=1472

Now there is no undeniable proof against Cobo, but anyone with half a brain must agree that it stinks to high heaven and that the figures and his performance on Angliru basically don't add up.

Regards
GJ

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Let me see if I can get this straight.

Cobo = evil doper because:

i) his team is Geox who used to be SD who had a lot of doping issues.

ii) His DS is a well known doper and dodgy DS.

iii) His team mates include the likes of Menchov and he used to ride with Piepoli.

iv) He used to ride for dirty teams.

Can someone explain how this is different to:

i) Cadel Evans - BMC/Phonak, Och, Rihs and Lelangue, riding with Ballan, Hincapie etc, ex-Mapei, T-Mob, Lotto

ii) Alberto Contador - Saxo - Riis, rides with Baden Cooke, ex Astana (mk2 and mk3), ex Disco, ex-LSW

iii) Mark Cavendish - HcT - Stapleton, Aldag, Holm, Zabel, rides with Tony Martin, ex-T-Mob,

iv) Any Garmin or Sky rider etc etc.

You have to give Geox some credit, they are a hell of a lot more honest compared to Sky, BMC, Garmin, Hct etc. Geox aren't pretending to ride clean like those teams pretend to. Geox don't give you the PR bull**** about riding clean.

 

[Fergoose]

To start with he barely looked like he was breathing going up that climb,

Oh dear, dear, dear. Another hapless fool like me that regards what you see with your own two eyes as some form of… evidence. Let’s hope that sort of sloppy state of affairs never infiltrates our legal systems shall we? Have you not read some of the posts above? What you can see, hear and touch; you just can’t trust it! Remember this when next you are on jury duty.

More seriously, if a rider looks tired, that in isolation is no evidence that they are tired (I am sure some will fake it). On the other hand, if a rider goes up what is debated to be the hardest climb in Europe, exhibiting no discernable physical hardship, then that is quite informative. Not even an Oscar calibre performer could fake that over a 40+ minute ascent on savage gradients.

On Geox being a sloppy outfit; this has been regularly discussed here. For example their poor TTT tactics and their dropping de la Fuente back to frankly just get in Cobo’s way. As for preparation, I recall reading posts laughing at Geox on Menchov being asked about his preparations and saying they hadn’t done any altitude work. Apologies if that is inaccurate, I am taking that second hand.

We did have Sastre after stage 1 making it abundantly clear what he thought of the calibre of his bosses (i.e. that they were numpties). His comments certainly didn’t make the team sound like one capable of carefully nurturing such a fragile and seemingly inconsistent talent as Cobo and magnificently coaxing such incredible performances out of him.

Apologies also if Cobo was slower than Contador’s climb, a couple of posters said he was 8 seconds quicker than Contador’s 2008 vintage. A definitive list would be useful. Although the suggestion that Cobo could be clean because he was of similar calibre to Contador when he was younger was a line of argument I was not expecting.

As for Cobo’s Time Trial being “overperforming”, that wasn’t my word, it was the opinion of a TV commentator. Most of the examples given rebutting this relate to Time Trials roughly half the distance of the one we had in the Vuelta.

The reason my contributions in this thread are skewed towards Cobo, is because he is the subject of this thread. You’ll find my Froome remarks in the “No way Sky are clean?” thread. I’m in no way imploring folk to agree with me, I’m just giving reasons why lumping Cobo & Froome together in a doping debate (or indeed any two riders from different teams with different performances) is daft.

 

[Fergoose]

Let me see if I can get this straight.

Cobo = evil doper because:

i) his team is Geox who used to be SD who had a lot of doping issues.

ii) His DS is a well known doper and dodgy DS.

iii) His team mates include the likes of Menchov and he used to ride with Piepoli.

iv) He used to ride for dirty teams.

As you know, you are entirely missing out the most important factors. Namely, what Cobo's individual performances have been like in the past week and in the 2008 TdF and how they compare to his performances when he is not in the Saunier Duval environment. The other factors are merely overwhelming circumstantial corroboration.

 

[Ferminal]

"Some" being the operative word here. Look at his results and he did nothing 2004 (injury?)

No, the operative word is "age". Is anyone who has a breakout season after a few years in the pros a doper?

(They probably are, but that isn't my point).

 

[spalco]

Can someone explain how this is different to:

What's your point? If you're saying that all teams/riders are equally dirty then I think you're wrong, if you're saying others are suspicious too, then I say: "duh".

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

What's your point? If you're saying that all teams/riders are equally dirty then I think you're wrong, if you're saying others are suspicious too, then I say: "duh".

I think you ought to be pointing that 'duh' in the direction of the Sky/BMC/Garmin fanboys etc who seem to think that Cobo is somehow Satan reborn for beating their good clean cut, never doped boys.

The 'reasons' being given for Cobo being dirty can be levelled at any rider, so if it means that Cobo is dirty, then he is no more dirty than Evans, Wiggins, Cavendish or Froome.

I am pointing out the hypocrisy and double standards that anglophone fanboys have when it comes to dopers. I mean, when the topic was posted about Sky they were out with their pitchforks - how dare anyone suggest Sky are dirty. Just because they win doesn't mean they are dirty. But when Cobo and Geox win, and a Cobo is dirty topic is posted the silence is deafening.

Fergoose - can you provide me with Wiggins and Froome's non-2011 performances that suggest that they should be top 5 Vuelta riders and that their performance is part of a natural 'clean' progression, while Cobo's performance is abnormal? BTW why have you ignored the posts that disproved your claims about Cobo and Froome?

 

[GJB123]

No, the operative word is "age". Is anyone who has a breakout season after a few years in the pros a doper?

(They probably are, but that isn't my point).

Nope, because apart from the Vuelta he didn't do much in 2009 and markedly 2010 and he was of age by then. He did barely anything in 2011 (apart from Burgos) for that matter until he magically appears to kick some collective b*tt in the Vuelta on arguably one the hardest climbs there is while hardly breaking a sweat. Call me a cynic but that is basically showing the average cycling fan the middle finger just because you can.

Regards
GJ

 

[Ferminal]

Let's look at the Vuelta GC:

Cobo

Froome - Shows reasonable promise as a climber and TT'er but lacks big results and consistency until the 2011 Vuelta at the age of 26 where he is the best TT'er and 2nd ir 3rd best climber on GC. Previous best GT was 35th in the Giro where he faded dramatically in the final week.

Wiggins - Legendary track rider and strong time trialist but shows very little as a road racer until the 2009 Tour at the age of 29 he is able to climb with the top 6 or 7 consistently. Finishes 4th overall after a strong time trial.

Mollema - Highly talented youngster who achieves results throughout his career, shows GT potential in the 2010 Giro at the age of 23, consistently climbing with the "next-best" and improves on that at the 2011 Vuelta to be in the top5.

Monfort - Solid performances throughout career, 2011 Vuelta his best GC finish, when given a chance to lead a team.

Menchov - Continuous progress as a stage racer before achieving GT success at 26.

Fuglsang - Another promising youngster who shows glimpses of his best as a stage racer before achieving a much better individual result in the 2011 Vuelta, aged 26.

Nibali - Steady progress until winning a GT at the age of 25.

Van den Broeck - Another strong stage racer, but exploded onto the scene with a top10 in the infamous 2008 Giro, aged 25.

Poels - Finishes the 2011 Vuelta at the age of 23 as one of the strongest climbers in his first full GT, achieving his best GC result in any major stage race.

Does this mean that Mollema, Nibali, Menchov and Monfort have all been clean throughout their careers? Are Van den Broeck and Wiggins just like Cobo?

I honestly don't know how it's possible to come out and say that you're >50% certain that one of these is a doper, whilst being >50% certain that another is clean.

 

[samb01]

We'll know more about Froome in time. He might very well turn out to be just another Isidro Nozal (who probably would have won the 2003 Vuelta if he hadn't had to bury himself for Gonzales de Galdeano in the first half of the race), but it's too early to say.

Cobo? Ugh. Come on.

 

[GJB123]

Let's look at the Vuelta GC:

Cobo

Froome - Shows reasonable promise as a climber and TT'er but lacks big results and consistency until the 2011 Vuelta at the age of 26 where he is the best TT'er and 2nd ir 3rd best climber on GC. Previous best GT was 35th in the Giro where he faded dramatically in the final week.

Wiggins - Legendary track rider and strong time trialist but shows very little as a road racer until the 2009 Tour at the age of 29 he is able to climb with the top 6 or 7 consistently. Finishes 4th overall after a strong time trial.

Mollema - Highly talented youngster who achieves results throughout his career, shows GT potential in the 2010 Giro at the age of 23, consistently climbing with the "next-best" and improves on that at the 2011 Vuelta to be in the top5.

Monfort - Solid performances throughout career, 2011 Vuelta his best GC finish, when given a chance to lead a team.

Menchov - Continuous progress as a stage racer before achieving GT success at 26.

Fuglsang - Another promising youngster who shows glimpses of his best as a stage racer before achieving a much better individual result in the 2011 Vuelta, aged 26.

Nibali - Steady progress until winning a GT at the age of 25.

Van den Broeck - Another strong stage racer, but exploded onto the scene with a top10 in the infamous 2008 Giro, aged 25.

Poels - Finishes the 2011 Vuelta at the age of 23 as one of the strongest climbers in his first full GT, achieving his best GC result in any major stage race.

Does this mean that Mollema, Nibali, Menchov and Monfort have all been clean throughout their careers? Are Van den Broeck and Wiggins just like Cobo?

I honestly don't know how it's possible to come out and say that you're >50% certain that one of these is a doper, whilst being >50% certain that another is clean.

Vd Broeck is 28 BTW, but I see your point. The fact of the matter is that the title of this thread is "Cobo" and not "Menchov" or "Mollema". So naturally I am commenting on Cobo and his possible PED abuse. I can't see why a moderator of all people should want to encourage members to go off-topic in a Cobo-thread. If I have something to say on Menchov or Mollema I will do so in a relevant thread or start one up.

Coming back to Cobo, like I said, I don't know for sure he doped anymore than I do for the others in the Vuelta. I am just going by what I see and connecting the dots, which seems to a popular passtime in the clinic. As far as Cobo is concerned the writing seems to be on the wall for everyone but the selectively blind. Have you actually seen the ascend of Angliru?

Regards
GJ

 

[Ferminal]

I'm simply showing how looking at career progression is hardly an indication of whether or not one has/hasn't used PEDs, it's completely relevant to your point on Cobo and thus the topic.

Cobo's Angliru performance is hardly more alarming than half a dozen others we have seen this season. In fact it would struggle to be in my top5 performances for the year (in general, nothing to do with doping).

 

[Winterfold]

I'm simply showing how looking at career progression is hardly an indication of whether or not one has/hasn't used PEDs, it's completely relevant to your point on Cobo and thus the topic.

Yes, sometimes the evidence of the performance that took place right before your eyes is so compelling it doesnt really matter what has gone on before.

If there wasnt a finish line on top of that mountain he'd still be going.

 

[hrotha]

Yes, sometimes the evidence of the performance that took place right before your eyes is so compelling it doesnt really matter what has gone on before.

If there wasnt a finish line on top of that mountain he'd still be going.

His performance itself (separated from his history) is only suspicious if the performances of those following him are suspicious too. It's not like he put 2 minutes on Christopher frickin' Froome.

 

[GJB123]

I'm simply showing how looking at career progression is hardly an indication of whether or not one has/hasn't used PEDs, it's completely relevant to your point on Cobo and thus the topic.

Sure it is. Let's discuss the other contenders by all means instead of the topic of this thread. Whatever you want, you are the boss.

And as for your point, it is not as if we are looking at his career only. You are intentionally grossly over-exaggerating some of the points made. Look at his career, his teams, his performances yesterday and the day before. Look at the last time he performed this well; both his team mates performing equally well got busted for CERA. It is all down to Occam's razor. What is the most likely explanation for what we have witnessed this weekend? I think I know the answer, but we might never know.

Regards
GJ

 

[Winterfold]

His performance itself (separated from his history) is only suspicious if the performances of those following him are suspicious too. It's not like he put 2 minutes on Christopher frickin' Froome.

He beat Contador's 2008 time on the top 6km.

And I am not entirely convinced by Froome - but that's another thread and Ive commented there.

But - they looked utterly fooked, he could have kept on going. It stinks and you know it.

 

[Ferminal]

And as for your point, it is not as if we are looking at his career only. You are intentionally grossly over-exaggerating some of the points made. Look at his career, his teams, his performances yesterday and the day before. Look at the last time he performed this well; both his team mates performing equally well got busted for CERA. It is all down to Occam's razor. What is the most likely explanation for what we have witnessed this weekend? I think I know the answer, but we might never know.

Regards
GJ

Of course I think Cobo is a doper, but the fact that his strong performance in the megadoped 2007 Tour was unexpected relative to his results until then is only a minor point compared with the other issues you raise. His performances in 2007 and 2008 are suspicious enough, even if you inserted stage race top20s into his previous results.

 

[hrotha]

He beat Contador's 2008 time on the top 6km.

And I am not entirely convinced by Froome - but that's another thread and Ive commented there.

But - they looked utterly fooked, he could have kept on going. It stinks and you know it.

Of course I know it, I've been saying it from the start. But regardless of how fresh you think he looked, he still only put 48 seconds on his closest competitors.

I saw his time on the last 6 km after making my previous post. We're getting closer to mathematical certainty that he doped, I agree.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Ugly rider = doper

Of course the other thing that hasn't been pointed out is the Cobo is quite ugly and ugly riders are always dopers. cf Rasmussen, Schumacher.S, Piepoli.

Good looking riders are never ever dirty - cf Contador, Schlecks, Cancellara

NB - Evans, Wiggins, Levi and Frodo are all quite ugly, but the rule about ugly = doper is negated by the fact that Evans, Wiggins and Frodo all speak english which means that even if you are the elephant man you are not going to be a doper.

 

[craig1985]

Is having a big nose proof that somebody uses HGH?

 

[rickshaw]

Echoing others

I'd LIKE to believe that at the end of a very long season, in the second week of the hardest Vuelta ever, on what is one of the two or three hardest climbs in all of professional bike racing, a high mid level, or low high level bike racer who hasn't had much in the way of results for some time can just rip the field apart motoring up the final 8km of Angliru..... I'd LIKE to believe....
as a wise man once said, if if walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... better believe it IS a duck

 

[Winterfold]

I think this counts as 'telling it like it is' in pro-cycling

"Nibali admitted that he was surprised by Cobo’s display on the Angliru, which leaves him in the overall lead with just six stages to go. “Yes, he hasn’t ridden like that since the Tour stage at Hautacam in 2008,” Nibali said."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-endures-angliru-disappointment

 

[Winterfold]

In other news, in honour of Cobo's epic victory on the Angliru in Stage 15 of the Vuelta, the UCI are recalibrating their 'index of suspicion':