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Colombians in the Amgen Tour of California?

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craig1985 said:
Why should Messick be forced to invite teams? It's his race and invite whoever the **** he likes.

The American continents need to be represented, the USA and California should never be Eurocentric nor pure Anglo.

We are represented in the US by many races, religions etc.

Cycling is not special, it needs to be globalized, also our regions recognized.

It isn't necessarily about the bike.
 
May 6, 2009
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As I said I'm not opposed to the Colombian or other Latin teams racing, I just think imposing such a rule right at the last minute is a bit harsh.
 
royalpig180 said:
I see what you're saying and it definitely could cause some smaller races to fold. As far as the ATOC, I just think this solidifies the fact that it will seek to become part of the world tour in the next 1-2 years. Then some ProTeams that want in won't be forced to miss it (and though maybe they don't all want to, you know that some teams that request a spot won't be able to get one). Also, they wouldn't be subject to this rule and would be able to invite the teams they wanted, though it would force more American teams to go proconti.

Just because you have to invite a team doesn't mean that team will come; sure, maybe they'll be interested in coming for Quiznos or California, but Colombia, Venezuela and the surrounding area have their own cycling calendars, including a lot of important races for those teams. For Orgullo Paísa I'm sure a race like the Vuelta a Antioquia or the Clasica Anapoima is more important than the Vuelta a Bisbee or the Tour de Beauce, especially considering the cost of transporting all their stuff to North America to race, and so the bigger races (which intend to go more global anyway) are likely to be the only ones to really suffer from the compulsory invitation of leading Continental teams.
 
Mar 26, 2009
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I believe that a closer look into the rule and the issues it creates will show why there is going to be opposition from US races.

The UCI Continental rankings are a bit misleading. How so? Just go to uci.ch and take a look at the America's Calendar listing. You will see the following:

UCI .HC/.1/.2 races by region

Central/South America: 20+
USA: 6
Canada: 1 (plus 1 other event)

Just as you don't see a huge number of Colombian (and other) teams in US races there is a definite lack of Continental and Pro Continental US teams racing in South America. Those that do are generally down in the off-season for training purposes. The result? It is almost impossible for US based teams to gain enough points to move up in the America's ranking. On top of that they aren't getting invited to race in South America.

Moving over to the teams section you'll see another interesting thing:

UCI Teams by region:

USA: 10 Continental/2 PC/4 World Tour
Colombia: 3 Continental/1 PC
Brazil: 2 Continental
Canada: 1 PC

So we have less races to get points in and more teams to split them among - as well as do the races.

Yes, there are some great riders from South America, but this is not about that. Organizers should be allowed to invite those that they desire - to do anything else will cause their races to be put into jeopardy. There is a huge investment made in putting on a UCI level race. It is not just "inviting three more teams" - there is a financial commitment too.
 
Tech Director said:
Yes, there are some great riders from South America, but this is not about that. Organizers should be allowed to invite those that they desire - to do anything else will cause their races to be put into jeopardy. There is a huge investment made in putting on a UCI level race. It is not just "inviting three more teams" - there is a financial commitment too.
If the Financial "commitment" is your concern-don't worry-Pat & UCI will go for it no matter what-If your concern is cycling, UCI must get those invitations to the Colombians on their way- as they rightfully earned it.
well, go tell that to McQuaid because his vision of turning Pro Cycling in a selected Wealthy clubs is paying off, while the rest of the Teams are riding hard to earn points out there around the world to see if somehow they get squeezed in the Pro Races...
 
Tech Director said:
I believe that a closer look into the rule and the issues it creates will show why there is going to be opposition from US races.

The UCI Continental rankings are a bit misleading. How so? Just go to uci.ch and take a look at the America's Calendar listing. You will see the following:

UCI .HC/.1/.2 races by region

Central/South America: 20+
USA: 6
Canada: 1 (plus 1 other event)
Number of events often reflects demand. The Brazilians, Argentineans, Chileans, Colombians, Venezuelans all have their own relatively homogeneous calendars, and many of the teams will not cross over. You didn't see Orgullo Paísa and EPM-UNE in the Copa America de Ciclismo or San Luís, nor do you see Clube DataRo and Funvic in the Vuelta a Colombia. It is unfair to count up their number of events as one because the teams will not ride all of them. If more race organisers had the wherewithal to take UCI categorisation, then the US could match the South Americans for UCI points. None of the South American races are above .1, in fact only San Luís is above .2, whereas North America has 2 ProTour events and 2 HC races. You've got bigger events with more points at stake, which offsets the problem of having fewer events.

Just as you don't see a huge number of Colombian (and other) teams in US races there is a definite lack of Continental and Pro Continental US teams racing in South America. Those that do are generally down in the off-season for training purposes. The result? It is almost impossible for US based teams to gain enough points to move up in the America's ranking. On top of that they aren't getting invited to race in South America.

Moving over to the teams section you'll see another interesting thing:

UCI Teams by region:

USA: 10 Continental/2 PC/4 World Tour
Colombia: 3 Continental/1 PC
Brazil: 2 Continental
Canada: 1 PC

So we have less races to get points in and more teams to split them among - as well as do the races.
But this is patently false as well, because there are a huge number of slick and professional teams in South America without UCI categorisation at all. Boyacá Orgullo de América have no UCI status, nor do Pinturas Bler, Lotería de Boyacá, EBSA, Gobernación del Zulia, GW-Shimano, Lotería de Tachíra, OGM, T Banc-Skechers, São José dos Campos or São Lucás Saúde. Those guys are genuine and tough competition for the riders in UCI rated teams, and they take points away (even though they can't actually get the points themselves). And again, the US may have fewer races to get points in, but they have more points available. Rather like South Americans picking up intermediate sprints à la Thor Hushovd, and North Americans being able to pick them up in stage-winning huge bites like Mark Cavendish.

Yes, there are some great riders from South America, but this is not about that. Organizers should be allowed to invite those that they desire - to do anything else will cause their races to be put into jeopardy. There is a huge investment made in putting on a UCI level race. It is not just "inviting three more teams" - there is a financial commitment too.
Well, in that case, surely you should agree that Prudhomme could leave Radioshack at home to bring in more French teams if he so wants. A lack of French interest could put his race into jeopardy, yet people are apoplectic about him choosing four French teams with his four wildcard invites.

C'est la vie. The US has successful World Tour teams, and so they come and take points at the US' largest races, which prevents the smaller teams from getting points, while in South America small teams pick up all the points because the big teams don't go there. You can't have it both ways, you can't have all the big teams turn up and still have the domestic calendar as a playground for the national Continental teams to dominate, it doesn't work like that.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
Number of events often reflects demand. The Brazilians, Argentineans, Chileans, Colombians, Venezuelans all have their own relatively homogeneous calendars, and many of the teams will not cross over. You didn't see Orgullo Paísa and EPM-UNE in the Copa America de Ciclismo or San Luís, nor do you see Clube DataRo and Funvic in the Vuelta a Colombia. It is unfair to count up their number of events as one because the teams will not ride all of them. If more race organisers had the wherewithal to take UCI categorisation, then the US could match the South Americans for UCI points. None of the South American races are above .1, in fact only San Luís is above .2, whereas North America has 2 ProTour events and 2 HC races. You've got bigger events with more points at stake, which offsets the problem of having fewer events.


But this is patently false as well, because there are a huge number of slick and professional teams in South America without UCI categorisation at all. Boyacá Orgullo de América have no UCI status, nor do Pinturas Bler, Lotería de Boyacá, EBSA, Gobernación del Zulia, GW-Shimano, Lotería de Tachíra, OGM, T Banc-Skechers, São José dos Campos or São Lucás Saúde. Those guys are genuine and tough competition for the riders in UCI rated teams, and they take points away (even though they can't actually get the points themselves). And again, the US may have fewer races to get points in, but they have more points available. Rather like South Americans picking up intermediate sprints à la Thor Hushovd, and North Americans being able to pick them up in stage-winning huge bites like Mark Cavendish.

thank you. you truly see it as it is.
 
Mar 26, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
Well, in that case, surely you should agree that Prudhomme could leave Radioshack at home to bring in more French teams if he so wants. A lack of French interest could put his race into jeopardy, yet people are apoplectic about him choosing four French teams with his four wildcard invites.

Definitely respect your points - however I am not apoplectic about him picking the teams he did. You have to do what you have to do to keep your race running ;-) The French teams invoke more interest from the hometown crowd!

This is also a little misleading in that Historical and WorldTour races basically know the conditions of their status when they apply for their sanction. That is not the case here - this was sprung on the organizers very late last year. I know of at least one US race that I doubt would have applied for UCI status if they had known of this.

But I stick my premise using some of your argument. Look at the available races to earn points in the US last year - there are not a lot and they included ProTour teams who as you suggested gobbled up the points...

Secondly, the Americas Tour points never meant much before (at least to US teams). And now the UCI is telling us late in the year that they are being used to determine who is coming to the largest races?

What sponsor benefit does UnitedHealthcare, Jelly Belly, Kelly Benefits, etc. have in racing in South America? What are the ramifications of them not doing CA, or CO? I think we know the answer.

Hey, I agree that there is some fantastic racing and some great athletes in South America. But the fact is that this was an ill-conceived and untimely decision by the UCI that is going to hurt US races. If the UCI was willing to sit down with organizers and teams maybe there is a fair and balanced system that could be developed to exchange the best teams from both continents.
 
That the ProTour teams will turn up and gobble up the points is part of the price you pay for marketing your race to them. As I said, you can't have it both ways. You can't have the biggest teams in the world on your doorstep and still have your local teams able to dominate the Continental rankings unless, like in Europe, you have local teams who are genuinely able to compete with those ProTour teams.

And of course the whole thing is contingent in the invites being accepted. If California clashes with a more important race in Colombia or the Colombian teams simply don't deem it worth the expense of travelling, then at least one of them may say "thanks but no thanks", freeing up space for teams like Jelly Belly, in which case it's much ado about nothing.
 
Oct 29, 2010
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It's doubtful that the Colombian teams will pay the required $50k+ sponsorship fee to race the AtoC. Plus pay for fuel, rentals, lodging...

It's time to split the Americas Tour in two. North America & South America.
 
cyclingPRpro said:
Besides, if they race up here we'd likely see a few pops the sport doesn't need right now...

Is that the pop of the US domestic pros' legs as they try to follow the Colombians on a hill?

I'm not saying there isn't dope in Colombia, there's plenty of it, but there's no more chance of a positive in the Colombian teams than in the US domestic teams.
 
Oct 29, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
Is that the pop of the US domestic pros' legs as they try to follow the Colombians on a hill?

I'm not saying there isn't dope in Colombia, there's plenty of it, but there's no more chance of a positive in the Colombian teams than in the US domestic teams.


Yes, there is. There's a reason they can climb like that. I can also assure you that if they race the AToC they'll be in the random test selection every day. Every single day.
 
cyclingPRpro said:
Yes, there is. There's a reason they can climb like that. I can also assure you that if they race the AToC they'll be in the random test selection every day. Every single day.
??? I don't understand your post, maybe you should explain a little better. Why would they be tested more?:mad:

Now, North Americans are cleaner than Colombians? please explain your logic because I am confused.:confused:
 
Mar 31, 2010
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cyclingPRpro said:
Yes, there is. There's a reason they can climb like that. I can also assure you that if they race the AToC they'll be in the random test selection every day. Every single day.

lol, you are so full of sh*t name me one colombian ever caught in european cycling??

now name the north americans.

and indeed there is a reason it's called environment. when you live generations long on 3000 metres pleateau's you are born to be a endurance athlete. ever wondered why almost all pro american cyclists are from boulder colorado?? it's not because they have better epo there and add to that the huge cycling culture in colombia that is nowhere to be found in the usa and you see why there are so many strong climbers/cyclists there. colombia has about 300 pro riders at least.
 
Oct 26, 2010
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Ryaguas said:
ohhhh now this is going to spice up the ToC...!

prepare for the "NonStopAttacking" colombian style... will be really funny to see the european climbers being dropped big time by the colombians... cant wait to see that hahahaha

in other topic... mmmm UCI shouldnt be forcing organizers to invite teams that arent in their programs... but this desicion is going to give more spectacle and will open the field a lot...

and by 'european climbers' you mean Rogers and Zabriskie? at least the most fanatic climbers with Leimheimer in the 2010 edition...
 
cyclingPRpro said:
Yes, there is. There's a reason they can climb like that. I can also assure you that if they race the AToC they'll be in the random test selection every day. Every single day.

Generations living at altitude creating higher oxygen-carrying capacity due to lack of it in the air they breathe day in day out?

If they race the AToC they'll be in the random test selection every day there's a hill, because the stage winners and jersey holders are always tested.

The US cycling scene is relatively clean compared to Colombia? I wouldn't be so sure myself. I expect there's as much doping in the US national calendar as there is in the Portuguese or Spanish.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Generations living at altitude creating higher oxygen-carrying capacity due to lack of it in the air they breathe day in day out?

If they race the AToC they'll be in the random test selection every day there's a hill, because the stage winners and jersey holders are always tested.

The US cycling scene is relatively clean compared to Colombia? I wouldn't be so sure myself. I expect there's as much doping in the US national calendar as there is in the Portuguese or Spanish.
To add to what Libertine Seguros and Ryo said, another explanation is the weight difference. "Gravity can be a b!tch sometimes" when somebody is 30 to 40 pounds heavier than another rider.
 
Nov 11, 2010
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Great to see Jamis Sutter Home there. But if these are the actual teams, they should really remove one and add at least one Colombian team.
 

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