Come on down: Floyd Landis

[lean mean &green]

In an ideal world, yes. Just like in the judicial world punishment fits crimes. But with the UCI in charge of cycling, no. I mean, they just tried to cover up the Contador case in all likelihood. But it's not only the UCI who are a problem, look at many other country's own anti-doping program. There just isn't the thoroughness or blind justice needed. Until there's a total overhaul and the UCI, or whatever replaces it, plus individual national anti-doping organizations have the resources and wherewithal to take on each case in an objective and needed manner, we're simply not going to get "firm, fair, consistent, immediate and proportionate" sanctions, and shouldn't even consider it until that time.

it goes without saying that there is a need to put a completely independent 3rd party in charge of testing all by itself as well as impartiality at the national and local levels. waiting for that to happen or for the UCI to fail might take a LONG while and is not as likely as CN forumites would like to believe. in the meantime i have no problem fixing the risk/reward equation a little. in fact, as i briefly mentioned proportional suspensions discourage cover-ups too. it also goes without saying that sanctioning guidelines would have to be communicated clearly to all. it wouldn't surprise me one bit if fans of the sport are clammering for this type of reform in the next few months. call it a hunch.

 

[NashbarShorts]

Somehow, since he's started telling the truth , he seems less ugly.

You're referring to the 'new and improved' flicker??

 

[flicker]

As an aside, has anyone conduted a poll to determine how many of us care whether or not PEDs are used in professional cycling. Since "everyone does it" and it levels the playing field in the minds of the cynics...

I think that people in the cycling game feel PEDs are part of the sport.
In the USA I think people (sports fans and the general interested public)do care because in our country we do not cheat. The hardcore knowledgable fans here do understand the doping,ie;retired pros, upper tier amatuers etc. Obviously there is a cancer here in the USA with doping in sports. I know that it is oversimplified but look at the politicians in our country who have been prosecuted for having affairs. I think in other countries that would be overlooked. From what I have read cycling doping is understood and accepted as an intregal part of the sport. That is my opinion.

 

[Benotti69]

I think that people in the cycling game feel PEDs are part of the sport.
In the USA I think people (sports fans and the general interested public)do care because in our country we do not cheat. The hardcore knowledgable fans here do understand the doping,ie;retired pros, upper tier amatuers etc. Obviously there is a cancer here in the USA with doping in sports. I know that it is oversimplified but look at the politicians in our country who have been prosecuted for having affairs. I think in other countries that would be overlooked. From what I have read cycling doping is understood and accepted as an intregal part of the sport. That is my opinion.

United States of Antartica? Oh yeah, i agree with you.

 

[Cloxxki]

United States of Antartica? Oh yeah, i agree with you.

I am glad we at least have one sportsmanlike sports nation to use as the yard stick for clean sports. Yeah right.

 

[ChrisE]

I think that people in the cycling game feel PEDs are part of the sport.
In the USA I think people (sports fans and the general interested public)do care because in our country we do not cheat. The hardcore knowledgable fans here do understand the doping,ie;retired pros, upper tier amatuers etc. Obviously there is a cancer here in the USA with doping in sports. I know that it is oversimplified but look at the politicians in our country who have been prosecuted for having affairs. I think in other countries that would be overlooked. From what I have read cycling doping is understood and accepted as an intregal part of the sport. That is my opinion.

This made me lol on many levels. Classic.

 

[thehog]

Interesting article.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/38243308

“I guess I’m still looking for an event to stop everything,” Landis said in a recent phone interview with Sports on Earth. “In my mind, I’ve wanted some type of an end, something final. Not that I was delusional and believed coming clean would fix everything on the spot, but it’s taken a long time -- a couple of years and still going.”

The thick case file that USADA is currently putting into document form may be the smoking start gun. Upon receiving the evidence, perhaps as soon as the end of this month, will the UCI (cycling’s governing body and longtime defender of Armstrong as its cash cow) follow USADA’s lead and officially expunge Armstrong from the record books? If so, the whistleblower suit would have momentum and a delicious irony: Any settlement offer by Armstrong would have to be approved by Landis. If Armstrong’s glory is scrubbed from existence, other companies could line up at Armstrong’s payment window to claw back sponsor dollars.

One dark answer is that if USADA’s evidence against Armstrong is legitimized as legally damning, it will look as if California U.S. Attorney Andre Birotte -- whose appointment was supported by Feinstein -- decided to end the federal investigation into Armstrong under political pressure. Privately, investigators seethed over Birotte’s abrupt announcement, which went unexplained when it was made the Friday afternoon before the Super Bowl in February. They were stunned; Landis was, too.

“I used to say to people -- and I never thought it would be me -- but I’d say, sooner or later, if Lance keeps treating people as poorly as he does, someone is going to say, ‘Screw it,’ and expose everything,” explained Landis. “You would think inside the federal investigation someone would say, ‘OK, this is wrong how this ended and I’m going to come forward.’ But I don’t know, we may never find out what happened.”

 

[the big ring]

Scary to realise omerta is not restricted to the pro peloton. I be Novitsky has a few choice words he'd love to share.

 

[thehog]

Scary to realise omerta is not restricted to the pro peloton. I be Novitsky has a few choice words he'd love to share.

Landis is very astute with his words. He's a good observer of life.

-

“I understand why he merges the two -- cancer and innocence -- because it has served him well,” Landis said. “For him, it’s too complicated to unwind it all now and admit to doing drugs and cheating and all the rest. He can’t because there is no good outcome. Keeping it up is the best way to limit the damage.

“I have no way of knowing how many people actually believe him. He’s good at getting stories planted at well-respected news sources, but it’s clearly not based on reality.”

Landis doesn’t pretend to be the noble party here. He cheated. He baited money out of adoring fans. He followed the cycling code of deception. “It’s a terrible feeling to have been part of it,” said Landis. Remorse is only natural for all of the cyclists who played a part in an Armstrong fairytale that captivated the world.

“I can’t predict what the end result is for Lance or how he will feel about it,” said Landis. “I know him pretty well from the years I rode with him, and I doubt that it’s a matter of feeling guilty or about what’s right or wrong. For him, it’s just about making the most of the cards he’s got. He’s going to play the game, and it’s not about how he’s going to feel about it later -- remorse or guilt or whatever -- because that’s not how he thinks.”

 

[Ninety5rpm]

The thick case file that USADA is currently putting into document form may be the smoking start gun. Upon receiving the evidence, perhaps as soon as the end of this month, ...

Ugh. I was hoping it was any day now. This is excruciating.

 

[MarkvW]

Interesting article.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/38243308

“I guess I’m still looking for an event to stop everything,” Landis said in a recent phone interview with Sports on Earth. “In my mind, I’ve wanted some type of an end, something final. Not that I was delusional and believed coming clean would fix everything on the spot, but it’s taken a long time -- a couple of years and still going.”

The thick case file that USADA is currently putting into document form may be the smoking start gun. Upon receiving the evidence, perhaps as soon as the end of this month, will the UCI (cycling’s governing body and longtime defender of Armstrong as its cash cow) follow USADA’s lead and officially expunge Armstrong from the record books? If so, the whistleblower suit would have momentum and a delicious irony: Any settlement offer by Armstrong would have to be approved by Landis. If Armstrong’s glory is scrubbed from existence, other companies could line up at Armstrong’s payment window to claw back sponsor dollars.

One dark answer is that if USADA’s evidence against Armstrong is legitimized as legally damning, it will look as if California U.S. Attorney Andre Birotte -- whose appointment was supported by Feinstein -- decided to end the federal investigation into Armstrong under political pressure. Privately, investigators seethed over Birotte’s abrupt announcement, which went unexplained when it was made the Friday afternoon before the Super Bowl in February. They were stunned; Landis was, too.

“I used to say to people -- and I never thought it would be me -- but I’d say, sooner or later, if Lance keeps treating people as poorly as he does, someone is going to say, ‘Screw it,’ and expose everything,” explained Landis. “You would think inside the federal investigation someone would say, ‘OK, this is wrong how this ended and I’m going to come forward.’ But I don’t know, we may never find out what happened.”

Tyler's book says that the Feds joined the qui tam.
This report says the feds have not publicly expressed their intention one way or the other.

 

[frenchfry]

Interesting article.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/38243308

“I used to say to people -- and I never thought it would be me -- but I’d say, sooner or later, if Lance keeps treating people as poorly as he does, someone is going to say, ‘Screw it,’ and expose everything,” explained Landis. “You would think inside the federal investigation someone would say, ‘OK, this is wrong how this ended and I’m going to come forward.’ But I don’t know, we may never find out what happened.”

This is the message that is starting to take hold. Not so much someone who did so much good for so many, but someone who treats people poorly.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Thanks hog. Interesting Floyd piece.
Yes, 95rpm, I share your excruciation...

I want Armstrong to be punished for treating people poorly...he should not get away with that ..it just enables his @sshat personality.

 

[Microchip]

...He's lied for 4+ years. Why should we believe a word he says now?...

So you don't believe that he has doped just as he said? If you believe he doped, why would you believe that, then discount every single other thing he said?

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Has anyone ever heard or read FLandis quoted stating specifically either way whether he actually was using testosterone in 2006? (if so, a reference would be nice)

When I've heard him relating what he was doing, he never includes the testosterone, but I'm not certain the list(s) was/were all-inclusive. And the testing -- if the results published in "Positively False" are to be believed -- are entirely too slipshod to be considered conclusive. And apart his T/E ratio, his absolute testosterone level was never tested higher than "low normal" ...or so his book claimed.

This always gave me to think perhaps part of his motivation for denying doping for so long was because he'd been accused of the one PED he didn't happen to be on.

 

[Microchip]

Has anyone ever heard or read FLandis quoted stating specifically either way whether he actually was using testosterone in 2006? (if so, a reference would be nice)

When I've heard him relating what he was doing, he never includes the testosterone, but I'm not certain the list(s) was/were all-inclusive. And the testing -- if the results published in "Positively False" are to be believed -- are entirely too slipshod to be considered conclusive. And apart his T/E ratio, his absolute testosterone level was never tested higher than "low normal" ...or so his book claimed.

This always gave me to think perhaps part of his motivation for denying doping for so long was because he'd been accused of the one PED he didn't happen to be on.

Yes, I've heard the same thing, he wasn't using testosterone. I believe it was an interview I saw but don't recall if it was online or on TV. Perhaps search YouTube for his interviews. My recollection of it was that he seemed puzzled that he got busted for that and not for really what he was using. I've always wondered what the dirty details about that was.

 

[the big ring]

Yes, I've heard the same thing, he wasn't using testosterone. I believe it was an interview I saw but don't recall if it was online or on TV. Perhaps search YouTube for his interviews. My recollection of it was that he seemed puzzled that he got busted for that and not for really what he was using. I've always wondered what the dirty details about that was.

I asked something similar recently, in a thread here somewhere. The answer was not concrete, although one responder mentioned confronting both Floyd and the doctor who had defended him, about the claim the doctor had made: that testosterone is not performance enhancing (? from memory).

 

[carl spackler]

I love Floyd. He really did get the ball rolling on this whole thing. Couple of thoughts I had while reading this:

1. There will always be people who believe Armstrong
2. There will always be people who admire Armstrong not only for being a good rider, but for being a good cheater. Even Hamilton and Floyd say he was great rider just doing what he had to do. There are lots of Machiavellians who think you are weak if you allow others to cheat you. Floyd said it himself.

When I first became a cycling fan I was struck by the way so many riders that had been beaten in a race showed what seemed to be true sportsmanship and said things like "he was too strong today" about the person who beat them. It almost seems like, although they know they all cheated, they still feel this way about Lance. To say otherwise would be to diminish there own achievements too, tainted though they are.

Its so interesting to me because the question of what is right and fair is so hard to determine for them all.

I wish Floyd would write a book and do more interviews.

 

[carl spackler]

Also I would add that I hope Floyd can find some measure of peace.

 

[ManInFull]

I asked something similar recently, in a thread here somewhere. The answer was not concrete, although one responder mentioned confronting both Floyd and the doctor who had defended him, about the claim the doctor had made: that testosterone is not performance enhancing (? from memory).

That's really not an answer.

Did Floyd ever admit that he was using testosterone during the TdF?

 

[BroDeal]

That's really not an answer.

Did Floyd ever admit that he was using testosterone during the TdF?

Not for 2006. He said he switched to HGH months before. It worked better for him and was undetectable.

If he was buying his stuff from Pepe Marti then who knows what he actually received. HGH is more expensive than testosterone. I wonder if it is possible to "cut" the HGH with some form of testosterone. Or Marti selling Landis bad stuff could have been intentional.

 

[the big ring]

That's really not an answer.

Did Floyd ever admit that he was using testosterone during the TdF?

Agreed, it wasn't an answer. I didn't tell the poster that though - I figured if someone knew they would have responded more concretely.

I am simply adding my experience to the "wtf really happened" chorus.

I'd really like to know myself.

 

[Huckleberry]

"I did use testosterone leading-up to the Tour, and I know what the clearance rate is, and I know more now about how the carbon-isotope test works and how long the delta change in the carbon isotope should last and how it should degrade over time and I can’t match it up with a blood transfusion. It just doesn’t make sense to me."

Floyd Landis statement from interview by Paul Kimmage.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2011/landiskimmage

 

[the big ring]

"I did use testosterone leading-up to the Tour, and I know what the clearance rate is, and I know more now about how the carbon-isotope test works and how long the delta change in the carbon isotope should last and how it should degrade over time and I can’t match it up with a blood transfusion. It just doesn’t make sense to me."

Floyd Landis statement from interview by Paul Kimmage.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2011/landiskimmage

Awesome, thanks.

 

[TubularBills]

I love Floyd. He really did get the ball rolling on this whole thing. Couple of thoughts I had while reading this:

1. There will always be people who believe Armstrong
2. There will always be people who admire Armstrong not only for being a good rider, but for being a good cheater. Even Hamilton and Floyd say he was great rider just doing what he had to do. There are lots of Machiavellians who think you are weak if you allow others to cheat you. Floyd said it himself.

When I first became a cycling fan I was struck by the way so many riders that had been beaten in a race showed what seemed to be true sportsmanship and said things like "he was too strong today" about the person who beat them. It almost seems like, although they know they all cheated, they still feel this way about Lance. To say otherwise would be to diminish there own achievements too, tainted though they are.

Its so interesting to me because the question of what is right and fair is so hard to determine for them all.

I wish Floyd would write a book and do more interviews.

When I first began racing I believed it was about the rider, the bike and the race.

I'd like to see that again.

Rider. Bike. Race.

That's sportsmanship.