Commentary on TNT and other WB brands

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Harmon = gone

Magnus Backstedt and Dan Lloyd are excellent - they're good and at least they are professionals in Cycling.

Maybe Cyclling is at last entering the realms of a sport where they don't need crap 'filler inners - like the sound of their own voice'...Harmons, Kirby and Duffield.
 
Cycle Chic said:
Magnus Backstedt and Dan Lloyd are excellent - they're good and at least they are professionals in Cycling.

Maybe Cyclling is at last entering the realms of a sport where they don't need crap 'filler inners - like the sound of their own voice'...Harmons, Kirby and Duffield.

Yes but are they lead commentators though??
 
Cycle Chic said:
Magnus Backstedt and Dan Lloyd are excellent - they're good and at least they are professionals in Cycling.

Maybe Cyclling is at last entering the realms of a sport where they don't need crap 'filler inners - like the sound of their own voice'...Harmons, Kirby and Duffield.

And there's less than zero chance they'll be a pairing.
 
Mar 25, 2013
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Robert Hatch might say he's not doing the Giro because he hasn't been offered to do it just yet. I say that will all change now with Harmon's decision. Eurosport could easily get Quigley to do California although I wouldn't mind if Quigley did the Giro either. He did good work on Tro Bro Leon last Sunday.

Time to shake up the commentary anyway. It's a real pity Dan Lloyd works with RCS as him and Hatch would be my ideal combination out of everyone. I would had no hassle seeing them in the Tour. On many occasions Kelly goes silent in the commentary and only speaks when prompted by Harmon. Take Dan Lloyd at E3 with Hatch, where he gave viewers detailed descriptions of each cobbled section from his own experiences. He was also excellent in Trentino last year and it was great listening to him during the Tour as well when Europort had a studio in the Look Mum No Hands café in London.

I do remember Harmon saying he turned down RCS to commentate on their races last year. One thing I am glad of and it's that we won't have to listen to Kirby during the Giro. If RCS hadn't acquired him, it would nearly be certain he would shoved in front of the mic for us to listen to everyday. Just imagine.
 
Waffle

therealtimshady said:
Yes but are they lead commentators though??

Whats all this 'LEAD COMMENTATOR' rubbish ??? if there are 2 or even 1 person commentating who have experience as an ex-professional in the sport - what does it matter ?

If Kelly did it on his own it would be fine....at least we wouldn't have to listen to scenery descriptions or the 'blue and pink team'....we'd get information when we needed it.
 
Quigley and Lloyd are the dream team for the future. Make it happen Eurosport! :)

That's not to say I don't like Sean, but sometimes it feels he's just getting a bit stale - a bit like Hansen on MotD for those in Britain. Harmon, on the other hand, too often gets on his high horse about something, is patronising or is too matey.
 
The role of the main commentator is to communicate with the viewers, relay facts and describe what is happening. It's the job of the summariser to explain what is happening. It is the job of the main commentator to set the expert up with questions and observations. It is the job of the main commentator to communicate with those at home who might not be experts, and make what is on display accessible and understandable.

In a sport like cycling, with potentially a few hours worth of nothing happening on a flat stage, the main skill is being able to talk at length about very little sometimes.

I actually think Dan Lloyd, with his online TV presenting stint at Global Cycling Network, has the potential to be a main commentator but I think he'd baulk right now at being thrust in front of an open mic and told to talk in an entertaining way for hours on end with only the occasional aside to an expert alongside.

I don't dislike Carlton, but his lack of knowledge can be glaring. The commentator should know more than the vast majority on the couch at home.
 
Cycle Chic said:
Whats all this 'LEAD COMMENTATOR' rubbish ??? if there are 2 or even 1 person commentating who have experience as an ex-professional in the sport - what does it matter ?

If Kelly did it on his own it would be fine....at least we wouldn't have to listen to scenery descriptions or the 'blue and pink team'....we'd get information when we needed it.

In almost every sport under the sun, commentary teams consist of the following:

A play by play (PBP) man, whose job is to call the action. This is somebody whose job is to tell you what is happening, and this job is almost invariably done by a 'career commentator'.

An analyst (or, in the US, color commentator), whose job is, as the title suggests, to analyse the action. This is somebody to tell you, after the play by play man has told you what has happened, why it happened, and also to hypothesise on what will happen. This job is almost invariably done by somebody with experience in the sport.

Only in sports where the pace is sufficiently slow that the action can readily speak for itself and there is ample time to discuss every piece of action before the next, does this formula tend to be broken. Football, American football, Formula 1, cycling, tennis, swimming, athletics, they all follow this formula. Even fricking Basque pelota does - you have a lead commentator (Xabier Euzkitze) who has no experience in the sport, who calls the live action while the experienced former pro (Joxan Tolosa) interprets the information and relays his analysis in the pauses between points.

This works very well on sports like athletics (at least in shorter events and especially in the field events), or tennis, or Alpine skiing, where each event is short or where each competitor goes individually. It means there are significant enough regular pauses for the analyst to be able to be quiet and let the lead commentator do their job during the event, then they have ample time to discuss the event afterwards.

Cycling has a bit of a problem in that regard; often for large swathes of time little is happening, so there is little action for the analyst to analyse, meaning you get large amounts of waffle from the lead commentator trying to fill time, especially if the analyst isn't able or willing to engage in that (as you might get from Kelly sometimes), and also without clearly delineated breaks in action, the analyst may struggle considering when the right time to make their point is (case in point, the Suances stage of the 2008 Vuelta, when Valverde went off the back of the péloton to get his rain cape, then a crash caused a split. Valverde was picked up at the back of the péloton by cameras twice, but as Kelly was in the middle of a 78-clause run-on sentence about some technical issue, it hadn't been duly noted, and both Harmon and Kelly were then dumbfounded when the péloton split and Valverde was behind it). At this time you may benefit from having two ex-pros in the booth, as they could produce something more insightful than the general chit-chat. However, when the action hots up in cycling, the analyst tends to be more quiet, except for occasionally identifying a move. There's a very good reason why, for all the positive contributions they make to Eurosport's coverage, you almost never hear Kelly, or Backstedt, or even Smith (who does a very creditable job of bridging the two roles), calling the sprint: not because they're struggling to be heard over Harmon or Kirby, but in fact because they wouldn't be good at it, because it's not what they're there to do.

Perhaps the three-man booth is the way to go. This works in the Tour sometimes with Kirby adding the inanity and local interest leaving Kelly to do his analysis without having to be poked and prodded for chit-chat, which he often seems unwilling to participate in. However, if you had one lead-commentator, then a guy like Smith, then the analyst, then you could give each a bit of a break here and there. There was a time when Harmon was ill or something or out of the booth for some reason and Kelly had to handle it on his own - you quickly learnt why Harmon is there. I'll use Harmon, Smith and Kelly as my examples. When little is happening, if Kelly doesn't want to contribute, then Harmon and Smith can give us the chit-chat, however with Smith's pro cycling background it can be kept relevant; you still have the pro commentator who can ask the questions that the naïve viewer may want answering (let's face it, as ex-pros Smith and Kelly have a lot of knowledge, and much of the audience do not necessarily share this, so having somebody to voice the thoughts of the naïve viewer is still necessary) and poke and prod the analyst(s) with the right questions, but with two analysts to compare and contrast opinions, we would get a) more time dedicated to analysis when little is happening, as you have twice as many voices to be heard plus any resultant debate from if they disagree, and b) with less time to fill, less pressure on Harmon's shoulders and he doesn't need to scramble around awkwardly hunting for subjects to talk about when Kelly's unwilling to engage and they're 60k from the finish of a flat stage with the small break of plucky guys from French ProContinental teams dangling out front but clearly under control.
 
argyllflyer said:
The role of the main commentator is to communicate with the viewers, relay facts and describe what is happening. It's the job of the summariser to explain what is happening. It is the job of the main commentator to set the expert up with questions and observations. It is the job of the main commentator to communicate with those at home who might not be experts, and make what is on display accessible and understandable.

In a sport like cycling, with potentially a few hours worth of nothing happening on a flat stage, the main skill is being able to talk at length about very little sometimes.

I actually think Dan Lloyd, with his online TV presenting stint at Global Cycling Network, has the potential to be a main commentator but I think he'd baulk right now at being thrust in front of an open mic and told to talk in an entertaining way for hours on end with only the occasional aside to an expert alongside.

I don't dislike Carlton, but his lack of knowledge can be glaring. The commentator should know more than the vast majority on the couch at home.

Kirby is too busy trying to entertain. I think he makes a good combination with Magnus Backstedt. Kelly does well with Harmon but Harmon just talks too much drivel sometimes. I think they are the best along with Brian Smith. Smith has good insights into the sport and combines well. The other ones that fill in sometimes, have the facts and figures but add nothing to the commentary. Kirby just needs to call the race more instead of going off on a tangent like Harmon's constant reminders about past doping offences. The fans know about it and don't have to be constantly reminded.
 
Harmon and Kirby

Libertine Seguros said:
In almost every sport under the sun, commentary teams consist of the following:

A play by play (PBP) man, whose job is to call the action. This is somebody whose job is to tell you what is happening, and this job is almost invariably done by a 'career commentator'....etc etc

Lib Seg - I disagree with all you said and heres why. In most sports the PBP Man is IN THE STUDIO. Golf and Tennis are good examples that you quote - The Open has just been on for 7 hours....the Tennis matches are on for 5 hours....most sports have ex-professionals doing the commentary.

Backstedt and Smith manage quite well without Harmon and Kirby interrupting. There are so many times when a 2 WAY CONVERSATION is expected and Harmon and Kirby do not have the knowledge or experience. Recently there is Quigley and Robert Hatch - PBP men and they are able to have a conversation and at least relay that they have done their homework and follow the sport.
 
Cycle Chic said:
Lib Seg - I disagree with all you said and heres why. In most sports the PBP Man is IN THE STUDIO. Golf and Tennis are good examples that you quote - The Open has just been on for 7 hours....the Tennis matches are on for 5 hours....most sports have ex-professionals doing the commentary.

Backstedt and Smith manage quite well without Harmon and Kirby interrupting. There are so many times when a 2 WAY CONVERSATION is expected and Harmon and Kirby do not have the knowledge or experience. Recently there is Quigley and Robert Hatch - PBP men and they are able to have a conversation and at least relay that they have done their homework and follow the sport.
Golf is slow enough in pace that you don't need a play by play man. Most sports have ex-professionals doing the commentary ALONGSIDE A CAREER COMMENTATOR. Al Michaels never played American football. Murray Walker never raced an F1 car. John Motson never kicked a ball for money. Michel Wuyts has never turned a pedal in anger. Xabier Euzkitze never played pelota for a crowd. Every football, rugby, baseball or motorsport commentary tandem around consists of an ex-pro alongside a professional commentator, with the exception of one year when Martin Brundle - who had been doing the analyst job for nearly 20 years - took over as lead commentator. I would trust them on commentary over an ex-pro who may have the professional knowledge but zero capability of imparting it. And who's to say that having been a pro makes you the be all and end all of knowledge on a sport? Remember Boasson Hagen not knowing who a few of the legends of the sport were (I assume he was joking, mind). You wouldn't get that from Michel Wuyts. He's never been a pro cyclist, but Michel Wuyts knows pretty much everything there is to know about the sport. Strangely enough, people who have been fans for decades know quite a lot about the sport too.

Cycling has the problem that for long periods it is slow enough that you could get away with the two ex-professionals approach like in a sport like golf. But at other times, it isn't - it is fast, energetic and you need somebody to call what is happening as it happens without the analysis, which can be left until later. Guys like Kelly and Backstedt don't call the sprints, and the more is going on the less they contribute, because the main commentator's job is taking up more of the airtime.

That's why I suggested the three man booth, because Brian Smith, for all his flaws (over-focusing on the UK scene is one thing but covering those riders almost to the exclusion of all others can be frustrating at times), is the only guy Eurosport have at present who can bridge those two roles. I like Backstedt, but right now he can't be a lead commentator. Lloyd neither; they're entertaining in their current roles but asking them to take lead commentary entails them needing to talk way, way more, and also moves them AWAY from what they're doing well at the moment (as the job doing PBP entails doing different things to what they're doing now). Also, without the time to pore over statistics and process the information before providing their analysis, the quality of their analysis may suffer. That's one of the problems for guys like Harmon - they don't have the luxury of dropping out of conversation for a couple of minutes to structure their points, instead they have to do it on the fly without being marble-mouthed, which can lead to blathering.
 
Cycle Chic said:
Lib Seg - I disagree with all you said and heres why. In most sports the PBP Man is IN THE STUDIO. Golf and Tennis are good examples that you quote - The Open has just been on for 7 hours....the Tennis matches are on for 5 hours....most sports have ex-professionals doing the commentary.

Backstedt and Smith manage quite well without Harmon and Kirby interrupting. There are so many times when a 2 WAY CONVERSATION is expected and Harmon and Kirby do not have the knowledge or experience. Recently there is Quigley and Robert Hatch - PBP men and they are able to have a conversation and at least relay that they have done their homework and follow the sport.

Whoever is the main commentator has to have the skills in order to do that though. Live cycling coverage involves potentially hours of not a lot happening.

You're over-estimating the knowledge of the people back home if you think a main man describing the action is not required.

Yes, Brian Smith and Magnus Backstedt could have a conversation about cycling for a few hours, but could they dumb down their knowledge to communicate and engage with the viewers at home?

So often there are no graphics showing who riders are. So often there are picture break-ups that leave dead air time. So often there are no time gaps. Harmon and Kirby etc are there to fill that time and stop viewers turning off. They do that by being entertaining, trying to engage people on Twitter, saying things that might be controversial, and of most importance, by engaging the expert in conversation about why things are panning out as they are.

The ideal I agree would be a main commentator who has competed in the sport in question, such as Peter Aliss in the golf or in F1 Martin Brundle. Even Hugh Porter at his peak, and Liggett turned down a career as a Pro to go down the commentating route. However, in most sports, it's a professional broadcaster who is in the main position. If a former sportsman can become the professional broadcaster, then so be it. As it stands, the only person in cycling that I can see doing that from the current generation is Dan Lloyd. He's doing the interviews for RCS events, co-commentating with Carlton for RCS and occasionally Eurosport, and presenting the online Global Cycling Network show.

It's a different world sitting in the co-pilot seat, not having to listen to producers in one ear and respond only when spoken to.
 
As an aside on Harmon though, and slightly worryingly on his behalf, he signed off for 2012 with Beijing in early October and didn't reappear on Eurosport until mid February for the Algarve highlights. That's 4 months without commentating, though I guess he was working on non-commentary stuff. To be burned out within two months of being back, having done 3 or 4 stage races and a few Classics is, as I said, worrying for him. Personally, I couldn't wait for the new season - I even sat through the Aussie crits and made an attempt to find a middle-of-night stream for Tour Down Under... then again I don't have to talk into a mic for hours on end!
 
Maybe Harmon could spend some of his time off actually reading up on what is going on in the world of cycling. For example Andy Schleck's woes over the past year seem to have completely passed him by as evidenced by his preview of the Tour of Basque Country as the first showdown of the year between Contador and Schleck plus his shock at Andy getting dropped in the last 10km of Fleche Wallone when everyone else was surprised he was still in the race at that point

I do think he is by far the most natural commentator though. The Mute button beats Kirby and it's not even close
 
Rob Hatch and Tony Gibb are doing Tour of Turkey today. Rob then departs for Romandie where his commentary will be used for Sky Sports' live coverage. DH has tweeted he's doing Turkey, so I assume he'll take over tomorrow. Carlton and Sean for L-B-L.