Complains from Noval: Contador with no help

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Jun 21, 2009
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byu123 said:
"Armstrong looked the part of the winner, with hardly any fat showing on his body. He said he will start the Tour de France two kilograms less than the Giro d'Italia."
but that is not nine pounds, that is four. big difference!!
byu123 said:
I think that is part of Armstrong's plan, as it has always been, . . . "sandbag the competition" and make them think you are weak when you know you are strong.
i thought he practised on keeping a straight face even when in pain - to make competitors think he had more in the tank than he actually had. at least that's what he wrote himself (well, that woman did for him) in 'every second counts'
 
Jun 26, 2009
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BroDeal falls prey to . . .

"The last bastion of a person with no intellect or ability to argue intelligently . . . Ad Hominem attacks."

Fact of the matter is 4.4 pounds lighter, lactic acid threshold 3-4% higher than Giro, and hellacioius training at altitude for month of June . . . have the LAhaters very worried.

Give me some intelligent reason why Armstrong is not a contender for the GC at the TDF not sophmorish drivel.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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You are correct sir.

workingclasshero said:
but that is not nine pounds, that is four. big difference!!


i thought he practised on keeping a straight face even when in pain - to make competitors think he had more in the tank than he actually had. at least that's what he wrote himself (well, that woman did for him) in 'every second counts'

Tour of California to Giro lost 2 kilos. Giro to pre-TDF lost 2 kilos. (8.8 pounds since end of Tour of Calif. not Giro . . . my bad).

Coach says he is at his 2005 TDF weight. I stand corrected.
 
I'll bite.

byu123 said:
"The last bastion of a person with no intellect or ability to argue intelligently . . . Ad Hominem attacks."

Fact of the matter is 4.4 pounds lighter, lactic acid threshold 3-4% higher than Giro, and hellacioius training at altitude for month of June . . . have the LAhaters very worried.

Give me some intelligent reason why Armstrong is not a contender for the GC at the TDF not sophmorish drivel.
1. You are drawing conclusions about his crappy form at the Giro where he couldn't keep up with the best climbers/riders. All you've demonstrated is that he is in better shape, not that he is a contender. It's not like Contador has been sitting at home eating donuts. Nor Sastre. Or Evans. Or Menchov.

2. He's not the team leader. This team will not be riding for him unless Contador gets dropped or bonks. That's dramatically different than previous years.

3. He's only shown himself to be competitive at one minor crit against crappy competition.

4. Did I mention he is 37, soon to be 38?

5. If he sh*ts on Contador and tries to take the leadership, he will ruin his legacy and basically give the middle finger to every rider who has sacrificed his personal glory in support of Lance's 7 Tour titles.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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Publicus said:
1. tries to take the leadership,
Define "take leadership."

I never said he should "take" anything. I said he is a proven 7 time TDF champion who appears to be peaking at the right time.

What . . . . Should he not try his best in the opening TT so as to not put pressure Contador's psyche???? If he does his best in the opening TT and he beats Contador then what? If they get to the mountain stages and he is with Contador and the other GC leaders on the climbs (while ahead of Contador due to the TT win) then what? He should just roll over, give it up, and as a 7 time TDF winner put all of his efforts into supporting Contador? Is that what you are saying????

Come on . . . intelligently explain where you are going with this . . . "Lance should just lay down and become Contador's b!tch no questions asked" line of thinking . . .
 
You know EXACTLY what it means.

byu123 said:
Define "take leadership."
Go balls out in his TT, by all means, but if Lance doesn't have the yellow jersey, you continue to ride for Contador. TTT--Contador crosses the line first, again unless Lance already has the yellow jersey. Mountains? Unless Contador is dropped, ride for Contador. He Lance is dropped, don't send anyone back to protect him/pace him back. That's why you bring 9 men to the Tour. Same standards that applied when Lance was the designated team leader.

If they pull the crap they did at the Giro (pacing Armstrong), I'm going to lose all respect for JB. That's not something he would have done back in Lance's day and I don't expect him to start now.
 
I missed this gem.

byu123 said:
Come on . . . intelligently explain where you are going with this . . . "Lance should just lay down and become Contador's b!tch no questions asked" line of thinking . . .
Lance has asked how many riders to sacrifice personal glory for the sake of his singular goal? Or as you say, became Lance's b*tch for 3 weeks? He set the standard, why shouldn't he be subject to it? If he wanted to be team leader, then he should have, you know, won some actual races or achieved the podium in any of the UCI races he entered. But he didn't.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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Publicus said:
Lance has asked how many riders to sacrifice personal glory for the sake of his singular goal?
Such weak reasoning. Exactly how many of those "riders" on Armstrong's previous TDF wins beat him in ANY of the TTs during those years or even came close? Exactly how many of those "riders" consistently out climbed Armstrong in the mountains while anywhere near GC contention?. The situation with Contador and Armstrong is unique and unparalleled.

I don't get it. If Contador is such a dominant great rider how is it he is so fragile that if Armstrong doesn't perfectly toe the line from day one he just can't win the TDF then.
 
Hmmm.

byu123 said:
Such weak reasoning. Exactly how many of those "riders" on Armstrong's previous TDF wins beat him in ANY of the TTs during those years or even came close? Exactly how many of those "riders" consistently out climbed Armstrong in the mountains while anywhere near GC contention?. The situation with Contador and Armstrong is unique and unparalleled.

I don't get it. If Contador is such a dominant great rider how is it he is so fragile that if Armstrong doesn't perfectly toe the line from day one he just can't win the TDF then.
I guess the point is that you don't know who could or could not have out done him because they were all singularly focused on protecting him so that he could (a) be fresh (relatively speaking) for the time trials and (b) that he was protected for as long as possible on the climbs.

There is nothing unique and unparalleled here. Lance hasn't demonstrated in competition that he's earned the team's leadership, Contador has. The fact that you are suggesting that it is an open question because Lance won the Tour three years ago means that either you think it is 2005 all over again or you really don't understand the concept of team leader.

Don't hate Lance. He's one of the reasons why I started following cycling. That being said, nothing you've said and nothing he's done since he returned (including losing 8.8 pounds over 5 months) suggests that Astana's leadership should be up in the air. If you don't get that, then continue this conversation is moot.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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byu123 said:
Define "take leadership."

I never said he should "take" anything. I said he is a proven 7 time TDF champion who appears to be peaking at the right time.

What . . . . Should he not try his best in the opening TT so as to not put pressure Contador's psyche???? If he does his best in the opening TT and he beats Contador then what? If they get to the mountain stages and he is with Contador and the other GC leaders on the climbs (while ahead of Contador due to the TT win) then what? He should just roll over, give it up, and as a 7 time TDF winner put all of his efforts into supporting Contador? Is that what you are saying????

Come on . . . intelligently explain where you are going with this . . . "Lance should just lay down and become Contador's b!tch no questions asked" line of thinking . . .
I've read through several different threads and have notice that you remind everyone LA is a 7 time TdF winner a lot. Remember that guy who retired from his sport after winning many champiionships named Michael Jordon? Do you remember that a few years later he came out of retirement? Remember what happened next? That's right, he couldn't hang with the young guns anymore and you almost felt sorry for the once great champion.

Here's some numbers for ya.

26 yr. old legs vs. 37 yr. old legs = No contest
 
Jun 26, 2009
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*G*K*S* said:
26 yr. old legs vs. 37 yr. old legs = No contest
Looks as though Contador is the one being an a$$ and not a team player in terms of supporting the strongest team. Noval gets the nod instead of Horner because Contador is not man enough to play with the big boys without his Spanish playmate holding his hand. Sure blows a hole in the argument that Astana should have the strongest team to pull for the GC contenders in the mountains. I really thought Contador was more mature than this.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/horner/2009/06/astanas_chris_horner_explains.html
 
Jun 26, 2009
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*G*K*S* said:
26 yr. old legs vs. 37 yr. old legs = No contest

Don't be an idiot. Chronolgical age is relative. Power output, lactic acid threshold, etc. are much more relevant markers. Obviously as one ages these will naturally decline but at any given age if the power output, lactic acid threshold, and VO2 max is there one can still win regardless of age.

Explain why a 50 year old beats the rest of the "younger legs" in a 2009 national championship in cycling.

http://velonews.com/article/93791/longo-wins-another-national-time-trial-title
 
A

Anonymous

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byu123 said:
Looks as though Contador is the one being an a$$ and not a team player in terms of supporting the strongest team. Noval gets the nod instead of Horner because Contador is not man enough to play with the big boys without his Spanish playmate holding his hand. Sure blows a hole in the argument that Astana should have the strongest team to pull for the GC contenders in the mountains. I really thought Contador was more mature than this.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/horner/2009/06/astanas_chris_horner_explains.html
Funny, the guy who even Lance "says" is the team leader gets to pick one rider and that is a problem? From what I read, I am pretty sure that he knew that he couldn't count on Horner in a pinch. In fact, the pro I spoke with last Sunday said exactly that. He heard Horner say that he wouldn't ride for Contador, thought that is hearsay.

I will say this, it does suggest that maybe JB knows that Lance only has a remote chance of winning and figured he'd better make a decision against what LA wanted.

A second theory that will throw the fanboys into monkey screeching is that this is Armstrong's way of screwing over a guy who once talked sh!t about him. Kind of like dumping Landis' rest day refill down the toilet in front of him.
 
Apr 11, 2009
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Also, JB has to consider future of the team. Lance won't be there forever, and JB clearly has to keep in mind AC is the future (if there is a future for Astana with Vino wanting to come back). Otherwise, Lance still forms his own team.

I wouldn't put it past Lance having AC ride for a team of his as the GC guy,while he continues to ride select races. He's a businessman now more than a pro cyclist. Goes with his age. Nothing unusual. People tend to come to agreements when $'s / self-interest are at stake, :D

BTW: who is Astana's GC guy for the Vuelta? JB owes Horner bigtime. Would like to see Astana support him in a big race. At 37, he can't keeping waiting another year....and he has the legs/head to win/podium in big race.
 
Jun 25, 2009
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If LA does not think he can destroy AC from the very start of the Tour he should shout from the rooftops that he will do all in his power to help AC...

If he worked like never before to assist AC to the win he would gain more respect around the world than if he wins himself.

He could then return in 2010 with his own team for win #8
 
Apr 12, 2009
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byu123 said:
Such weak reasoning. Exactly how many of those "riders" on Armstrong's previous TDF wins beat him in ANY of the TTs during those years or even came close? Exactly how many of those "riders" consistently out climbed Armstrong in the mountains while anywhere near GC contention?. The situation with Contador and Armstrong is unique and unparalleled.

I don't get it. If Contador is such a dominant great rider how is it he is so fragile that if Armstrong doesn't perfectly toe the line from day one he just can't win the TDF then.
Maybe Landis, As I remember landis finished top 20 in the tour as LA main workhorse in 2004, and most of the mountain finishes he was right there with the favourites working for LA, I would think that he could've been top 10 had he not been LA b itch, and if i remember later on he won the tour.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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franciep10 said:
Maybe Landis, As I remember landis finished top 20 in the tour as LA main workhorse in 2004, and most of the mountain finishes he was right there with the favourites working for LA, I would think that he could've been top 10 had he not been LA b itch, and if i remember later on he won the tour.

23rd. 43 minutes back. Not exactly in contention for the podium. http://velonews.com/article/6666
 
Jun 18, 2009
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byu123 said:
Define "take leadership."

I never said he should "take" anything. I said he is a proven 7 time TDF champion who appears to be peaking at the right time.

What . . . . Should he not try his best in the opening TT so as to not put pressure Contador's psyche???? If he does his best in the opening TT and he beats Contador then what? If they get to the mountain stages and he is with Contador and the other GC leaders on the climbs (while ahead of Contador due to the TT win) then what? He should just roll over, give it up, and as a 7 time TDF winner put all of his efforts into supporting Contador? Is that what you are saying????

Come on . . . intelligently explain where you are going with this . . . "Lance should just lay down and become Contador's b!tch no questions asked" line of thinking . . .
Tell me LA would have put up with this **** back when he was winning his tours? No effing way in hell. Why shouldn't Contador demand the same from LA that he demanded from his teammates? Total support. That includes LA.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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I'm not going to argue who should be supported. Instead, what are likely scenarios? If one or the other loses loads of time in the first stage, leadership will fall to the other. Having said it is unlikely either of them will. Next if you want to dominate the tour, and they have the team to do it, run the USPS train up the first hill you hit, place these 2 riders last and chances are they can both help each other to the top to eliminate other competition. Otherwise let someone else dictate the pace and if either of them can't hack the pace your leadership falls to the other. If one attacks under no circumstances chances them down. Not too hard to play. If these 2 are in the form some think they are, then they should finish ala LL AC last years vuelta
 
Jun 26, 2009
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richwagmn said:
Why shouldn't Contador demand the same from LA that he demanded from his teammates?
Because Contador, as great as he is, is no Lance Armstrong . . . yet. And because Armstrong is no ordinary super domestique a la Hincapie, Popovych et al. Not analogous situations.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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karlboss said:
I'm not going to argue who should be supported. Instead, what are likely scenarios? If one or the other loses loads of time in the first stage, leadership will fall to the other. Having said it is unlikely either of them will. Next if you want to dominate the tour, and they have the team to do it, run the USPS train up the first hill you hit, place these 2 riders last and chances are they can both help each other to the top to eliminate other competition. Otherwise let someone else dictate the pace and if either of them can't hack the pace your leadership falls to the other. If one attacks under no circumstances chances them down. Not too hard to play. If these 2 are in the form some think they are, then they should finish ala LL AC last years vuelta
Very well said. I agree entirely. (except scratch USPS and replace with Astana)
 

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