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Component Prices
- Thread starter psychlist
- Start date
psychlist said:
The worst thing is that people PAY that much. I'll take Centaur or Ultegra any day.
What's stupidly expensive is the Di2 stuff. I usually spring for the high-end groups for my bikes, but I'll never purchase a component group that expensive. $4500 and that doesn't even include the brakes or crankset.
I don't care how many fake marketing "reviews" are posted by Cyclingnews or other magazines, there is no way the shifting can be that good to justify that much markup in price.
I don't care how many fake marketing "reviews" are posted by Cyclingnews or other magazines, there is no way the shifting can be that good to justify that much markup in price.
It is one thing to pay more for your bike than a car - it is an entirely different matter when you are paying more for your component group than a car.
psychlist said:
I saw this yesterday and could not believe the price, at first I thought it was a typo.
According to Eddy Merckx
I am paraphrasing when I report excellent advice from Merckx:
If you want to improve performance don't buy upgrades, ride up grades!
Proper fit, keeping your chain lubricated and your tires inflated to the proper pressure are still the three most important ways to improve your bike.
Throw in smart training, good nutrition, and plenty of rest and it matters little what components you ride.
I am paraphrasing when I report excellent advice from Merckx:
If you want to improve performance don't buy upgrades, ride up grades!
Proper fit, keeping your chain lubricated and your tires inflated to the proper pressure are still the three most important ways to improve your bike.
Throw in smart training, good nutrition, and plenty of rest and it matters little what components you ride.
CentralCaliBike said:It is one thing to pay more for your bike than a car - it is an entirely different matter when you are paying more for your component group than a car.
Forget the group, most single components are more expensive than my $500 '76 Oldsmobile Delta 88...
DI2 Nighfiend
Actually the $4,500 is the price for the gruppo. You can buy the Dura Ace without DI2 for 3,200.
One good thing about DI2 is that the derailleur has been subjected to a full immersion test. A Shimano employee tells me that they have tested up to 30 meters of water.
I think pricing has gotten out of hand. I used to race and work in a bike shop and I am dismayed how much they are trying to charge these days. One would think that as the prices goes up so does durability and reliability. I think it's silly to pay $2000 or more for a composite that frame is junk the first time you get in crash. Personally I don't think riders are well informed and the shops and the industry has done a poor job of educating them. Personally I am surprised that there has not been a lot of resistance in the cycling community.
Actually the $4,500 is the price for the gruppo. You can buy the Dura Ace without DI2 for 3,200.
One good thing about DI2 is that the derailleur has been subjected to a full immersion test. A Shimano employee tells me that they have tested up to 30 meters of water.
I think pricing has gotten out of hand. I used to race and work in a bike shop and I am dismayed how much they are trying to charge these days. One would think that as the prices goes up so does durability and reliability. I think it's silly to pay $2000 or more for a composite that frame is junk the first time you get in crash. Personally I don't think riders are well informed and the shops and the industry has done a poor job of educating them. Personally I am surprised that there has not been a lot of resistance in the cycling community.
rshimizu12 said:
With the exception of well-heeled Masters racers only a sponsored rider would use this stuff. Unfortunately the consolidation of component companies tends to raise the less technical gruppo prices because there are fewer alternatives. SRAM is pricey because it took them time to develop, test and bring the stuff to market. It will take time for FSA or some other diversified marketer to come up with new ideas. Grumpy assholes like me hate this battery powered gadgetry. There should be a law...
David Suro said:
That's where my signature came from!
It's all about the engine. The little component details are only important at the very top level where everything else is equal!
There's a few points to make here.
Firstly, as a (software) engineer I think the idea of electronic shifting is fundamentally sound. Essentially, a shifter is a mechanical computer, translating the inputs of the rider into a sequence of movements to move the chain from one cog to the other. An electronic shifter and derailleur can be equipped to take far more information into account in the shifting process, and adjust itself based on that. You push the button, it shifts the gears correctly every time. And that's what I want out of a groupset.
It also gets you the extra bonus of not having to worry about cable routing and the like. Wires are a lot more forgiving than shifter cables!
As a cyclist, the only thing that bothers me slightly about this is the fact that some of the energy used to operate the bicycle now comes from a battery, but we're talking about trivial amounts. In any case, it wouldn't be hard for future generations of the gruppo to include a tiny dynamo to provide the energy - the additional rolling resistance would be far less than the difference between good and average bearings, let alone tyre rolling resistance.
As to the cost issue, new technology is always exceedingly expensive, but there's no fundamental reason why we won't see Ultegra and ultimately 105 versions of this down the track. Electric motors are pretty cheap, and microcontrollers and a couple of switches are far, far cheaper than what's in a current shifter.
From a sporting perspective, there is the question of whether this kind of technology makes it impossible to compete without spending even more money on equipment. I don't think so - the actual advantage in terms of race performance from this over the top mechanical groups - particularly near-new, well-maintained mechanical groups - is going to be minimal. I contrast with deep-dish carbon wheels, which do make a difference, but add quite a bit to the cost of a racing bike.
Even if I had the cash lying around, I wouldn't shell out for Di2. But down the track a few years, i fully expect to be using electronic shifting, and wondering how i ever put up with mechanical groupsets.
Firstly, as a (software) engineer I think the idea of electronic shifting is fundamentally sound. Essentially, a shifter is a mechanical computer, translating the inputs of the rider into a sequence of movements to move the chain from one cog to the other. An electronic shifter and derailleur can be equipped to take far more information into account in the shifting process, and adjust itself based on that. You push the button, it shifts the gears correctly every time. And that's what I want out of a groupset.
It also gets you the extra bonus of not having to worry about cable routing and the like. Wires are a lot more forgiving than shifter cables!
As a cyclist, the only thing that bothers me slightly about this is the fact that some of the energy used to operate the bicycle now comes from a battery, but we're talking about trivial amounts. In any case, it wouldn't be hard for future generations of the gruppo to include a tiny dynamo to provide the energy - the additional rolling resistance would be far less than the difference between good and average bearings, let alone tyre rolling resistance.
As to the cost issue, new technology is always exceedingly expensive, but there's no fundamental reason why we won't see Ultegra and ultimately 105 versions of this down the track. Electric motors are pretty cheap, and microcontrollers and a couple of switches are far, far cheaper than what's in a current shifter.
From a sporting perspective, there is the question of whether this kind of technology makes it impossible to compete without spending even more money on equipment. I don't think so - the actual advantage in terms of race performance from this over the top mechanical groups - particularly near-new, well-maintained mechanical groups - is going to be minimal. I contrast with deep-dish carbon wheels, which do make a difference, but add quite a bit to the cost of a racing bike.
Even if I had the cash lying around, I wouldn't shell out for Di2. But down the track a few years, i fully expect to be using electronic shifting, and wondering how i ever put up with mechanical groupsets.
I thought it was a typo when I first saw it as well.
I started riding fixed gear this summer and I am really loving the simplicity of it. It probably means my campy record groupo on my road bike will last a loooooooong time too.
I started riding fixed gear this summer and I am really loving the simplicity of it. It probably means my campy record groupo on my road bike will last a loooooooong time too.
psychlist said:I thought it was a typo when I first saw it as well.
I started riding fixed gear this summer and I am really loving the simplicity of it. It probably means my campy record groupo on my road bike will last a loooooooong time too.
+1, about ten years ago a friend of mine who runs a bike shop warned me my 8 speed record was gonna be obsolete soon, so i should stock up on as many parts as possible. I ended up with alot of parts for 5-10 bucks each. So many i ended up building 6 bikes. I have a good dozen handbuilt wheelsets with vatious gears and about 7 record cassettes in unopened boxes. considering how long this stuff lasts i am set for at least another 20 years
nice to have a few race bikes with zipp wheels that cost me less than 500 dollars to build.
I could run through my whole stable of bikes for less than a component group
thats just nuts.
runninboy said:
Exactly. Part of racing a bike is knowing it and the appreciation of keeping it as simple and functional as possible. This is as unnecessary as the 3 speed autoshifting "fixed gear" setup promoted by a gun manufacturer 15 years ago-totally defeating the point of a fixed gear. It's part of the sport. Unless, of course; you think a $4500 pre-programmed launch control will help you win that big dollar sprint some day.
$1250 is not the price of Dura Ace cranks. I'm not sure where that number came from. The retail price is around $700, but if you look you can find them for $500. That's really not even close to $1250.
The Di2 kit does not cost $4500 without cranks. The basic shift kit (derailleurs, shifters, wires, battery, charger etc.) is right around $3200.
When you look at the price of a Pinarello Prince, or Colnago C50 or any other top shelf frame, the cost of the group really isn't out of line, and is quite proportional to the cost of the frame. The amount of money that had to be spent on R&D for this group had to be huge. They need to recover that money. Expect to see the price for Di2 come down next year and expect an Ultegra version in the next 2 years, which will be an even better price.
The performance of the Di2 is truly REMARKABLE, and I can't imagine where it will be once they've had a few years to refine it and add features. I know it doesn't make sense if you haven't ridden it, but it really is worlds better than anything out there. All I can say is go ride it before you make up your mind about it's worth. Even the Campag people I know that have ridden it have loved it. It's going to be the wave of the future, expect that within 10 years cabled systems will be reserved for cheap commuters and hybrids. Sram, Campy, Shimano all will be electronic.
The Di2 kit does not cost $4500 without cranks. The basic shift kit (derailleurs, shifters, wires, battery, charger etc.) is right around $3200.
When you look at the price of a Pinarello Prince, or Colnago C50 or any other top shelf frame, the cost of the group really isn't out of line, and is quite proportional to the cost of the frame. The amount of money that had to be spent on R&D for this group had to be huge. They need to recover that money. Expect to see the price for Di2 come down next year and expect an Ultegra version in the next 2 years, which will be an even better price.
The performance of the Di2 is truly REMARKABLE, and I can't imagine where it will be once they've had a few years to refine it and add features. I know it doesn't make sense if you haven't ridden it, but it really is worlds better than anything out there. All I can say is go ride it before you make up your mind about it's worth. Even the Campag people I know that have ridden it have loved it. It's going to be the wave of the future, expect that within 10 years cabled systems will be reserved for cheap commuters and hybrids. Sram, Campy, Shimano all will be electronic.
justme said:
Consdering you can buy the full Super Record 11 for US$2100 (or, if you're smart, you buy one of the lower gruppos, get the same quality mechanism, carry an extra 100g or so and keep $900 in your pocket), or US$1800 for the ordinary Dura Ace, why bother spending all that money for about half a groupset with Di2??
Like a couple of other posters have said, if you maintain your bike, there's no advantage with going to Di2 - it's not like cable operated shifting doesn't work - and I say that as a crosser and MTBer as well as a roadie! People who I know who ride with it actually get ****ed at the fact that it can only shift one gear at a time and is slower than the standard cable gruppo ... Call me old fashioned if you like, but I hate paying more for something that gives me less functionality!
Still, just imagine how useful it'll be in the pro peleton ... I mean, make it remote controlled and not only will a DS be able to direct their riders' every move over the radio, they'll be able to make their gear shifts for them!!! Ahh ... now that's progress ....!!!!
kiwirider said:Still, just imagine how useful it'll be in the pro peleton ... I mean, make it remote controlled and not only will a DS be able to direct their riders' every move over the radio, they'll be able to make their gear shifts for them!!! Ahh ... now that's progress ....!!!!
Kiwi i always enjoy your posts but this one really had me smiling thanks!
I picture some crazy DS making his riders suffer in the big ring
and then of course you would have the techies coming up with a gear jamming remote causing total havoc in the peloton
"I cant get this friggin thing off the 11!!!!"
justme said:
Not gonna get into the emotion of this but I rode a Scott with Di2, shimano outside rep's bicycle and ya know, it really worked well altho the before mentioned 'issues' were pretty evident. Buttons need refinement, hard to 'find' them, it will be tough to use these with full finger, winter type gloves. One gear at a time selection. Even with 7900, a full sweep to lower gears is faster shifting and of course price. For a Di2 subkit(I'll take your word for the $3200) will buy you a really nice bicycle.
I think James Huang of Cyclingnews hit the nail on the head about this group. The shift performance is more consistent over time than it's cable driven, mechanical 'brothers'. It is no more accurate than others but over time as inner wires and housing degrades with mechanical shifting, Di2 does not. Not sure if that's worth the $, 'worth' is subjective. As for the price coming down, doubt it outside of gray or black market and the shimano rep alluded to a electronic XTR as the next place for trons vs cables. Nothing for 6700/6703 for the 'near' future but who knows.
If ya gotta have it, go buy it but remember ya still gotta pedal the bike.
BTW, I work in a bike shop, get stuff at wholesale or 'EP' pricing(Employee Pricing, generally below wholesale). Not gonna get Di2 anytime soon, thanks.
runninboy said:Kiwi i always enjoy your posts but this one really had me smiling thanks!
I picture some crazy DS making his riders suffer in the big ring
and then of course you would have the techies coming up with a gear jamming remote causing total havoc in the peloton
"I cant get this friggin thing off the 11!!!!"
Glad to be of service! And you just returned the favour with the comment about gear jamming remotes ...
I can just see all the sprinters in the autobus sitting there jamming the climbers on mountain stages ... "If we're going to suffer in the mountains, then you guys can too!"
kiwirider said:Still, just imagine how useful it'll be in the pro peleton ... I mean, make it remote controlled and not only will a DS be able to direct their riders' every move over the radio, they'll be able to make their gear shifts for them!!! Ahh ... now that's progress ....!!!!
You can just see Bjarne Riis trying to reel in Jens Voigt with this... and Voigt continuing to churn...
DI2 Servicability
One of my big complaints about Shimano is how unservicable their components are. If you crash with a Shimano DI2 rear derailur you can be sure that they will tell you have to buy a new one.. With Shimano they just want you to upgrade like Microsoft.
One of my big complaints about Shimano is how unservicable their components are. If you crash with a Shimano DI2 rear derailur you can be sure that they will tell you have to buy a new one.. With Shimano they just want you to upgrade like Microsoft.
kiwirider said:Glad to be of service! And you just returned the favour with the comment about gear jamming remotes ...
I can just see all the sprinters in the autobus sitting there jamming the climbers on mountain stages ... "If we're going to suffer in the mountains, then you guys can too!"
too friggin funny again Kiwi
Seriously i remember when HR monitors were really getting popular but there were just a few models offered by Polar that people were using. I remember once in a tight pack early on a climb, alarms were going off like crazy because some riders monitors were picking up other guys transmitters.
I cant really do justice to the chaos & cursing that followed but you can imagine
To go back on original topic... I agree, which is why I went Centaur for $1k USD for a groupset. Aside from a few grams not much different from last year's Chorus or the year before's record (missing some Ti).
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