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Conta-do over? Will ban be reversed?

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Apr 28, 2010
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DAOTEC said:
The end of an era of crimes against human kind is close :cool:
I know I will probably regret this. But what the hell do you mean by this statement? It makes absolutely no sense and when it does mean what I think it means, it is belittling and trivializing what crimes against humanity are.

Also Python, thank you for the information
 
The Hitch said:
In Spanish he may be presidente but in english his position is one of Prime Minister.

A President is the head of a state. Since King Juan Carlos is the head of state Zapatero is not the president.

A Prime minister is usually the head of the leading party in parliament ( how Zapatero got the role) and is appointed by the head of state (again, if the shoe fits).

So in English Zapatero is the Prime Minister of Spain, even if in similar languages he is called the President.
Again, I disagree. This is largely a matter of faithful translation vs. cultural adaptation. Both are legitimate, depending on your audience and your purpose. This dichotomy was formulated by Friedrich Schleiermacher in On the different methods of translation (1813), where he distinguished between "moving the writer toward the reader" (by adapting foreign concepts and terms) and "moving the reader toward the writer" (by forcing the reader to recognize and learn about the foreign concepts in the text). It's basic traductology. Both approaches are fine, and until an employer tells me otherwise I'm going to stick with moving the reader toward the writer. :eek:
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Barrus said:
I know I will probably regret this. But what the hell do you mean by this statement?
"¿ why should you my dear friend: at least you give it a shot, and that is a honorable gesture for someone as stubborn, from the other side of the isle, and I thank you for that.


Barrus said:
It makes absolutely no sense and when it does mean what I think it means, it is belittling and trivializing what crimes against humanity are.
This is absolutely not the case, I would never do such thing Barrus.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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python said:
i have read most if not all official statements of the competent agencies/bodies responsible for contador's case -the uci, wada, rfec - none have officially confirmed that the placticizer test was indeed applied to contador. there were general statements by wada's people about the tests applicability to adjudication but none of the official interviews or press releases confirmed the initial german report.

there is also no single mention of plasticizers in the recently leaked 32-page document of the rfec disciplinary committee though there is plenty, again without the specific appendices, about his blood passport profile.
I agree of course that AC's positive PLASTICIZER test is a rumor only.
However, intuitively, I find the fact that the rumor hasn't been refuted more telling than the fact that it hasn't been confirmed.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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I haven't read the thread, but I'll throw my thoughts out there.

I'm OK with overturning the ban, as long as the other (less well-known) guys nicked for tiny amounts of Clen have their bans overturned as well. While I know it's 'the rule', it's a stupid rule, IMO. Trace amounts of something which legitimately could be from contaminated food or water should not result in bans. I don't know an appropriate threshold level, but it should certainly be higher than the amount in Bertie's blood.

On the other hand, I think the science behind the plasticizer test is solid, and I think he (and the rest of the field) should be evaluated on that front.

If he's going to be sanctioned, he should be sanctioned for something which actually improves performance and the sanctions should be handed out across the board, not just to him, because I doubt he's the only one with funny results from his platicizer test. My $.02.
 
DAOTEC said:
Who? for god sake are "¿they" ... them anglo-chain big fat ($$) Mac is referring to all the time ...
Don't discredit your proud country hrotha, "they¡" as you call them are not worth it ...
.
Oh please, get real, this has nothing to do with any bias against Spain. It's plainly obvious that there's some deeper problem with doping in Spain, and yes, a worse problem than in most other countries.

I remember when after the Salt Lake and then especially the Turin Olympics the Austrian Olympic team was accused of systematic doping and how the media totally downplayed the whole thing and try to paint it as a "us vs them", "they are just jealous" thing. Funny how it then turned out, that the IOC and WADA were totally right all along, and the entire Austrian nordic ski program was probably as dirty as anything can be going back to at least the 1999 world championships. Sure they won lots of medals, but was that worth it dragging a whole country's sports prestige into the gutter for years?

And Spain's problematic image as a doping safe haven also isn't going away by ignoring it.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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spalco said:
Oh please, get real, this has nothing to do with any bias against Spain. It's plainly obvious that there's some deeper problem with doping in Spain, and yes, a worse problem than in most other countries.

I remember when after the Salt Lake and then especially the Turin Olympics the Austrian Olympic team was accused of systematic doping and how the media totally downplayed the whole thing and try to paint it as a "us vs them", "they are just jealous" thing. Funny how it then turned out, that the IOC and WADA were totally right all along, and the entire Austrian nordic ski program was probably as dirty as anything can be going back to at least the 1999 world championships. Sure they won lots of medals, but was that worth it dragging a whole country's sports prestige into the gutter for years?

And Spain's problematic image as a doping safe haven also isn't going away by ignoring it.
No but with the country's PM supporting him the likelyhood is that he'll now get off. Justice? No.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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131313 said:
I haven't read the thread, but I'll throw my thoughts out there.

I'm OK with overturning the ban, as long as the other (less well-known) guys nicked for tiny amounts of Clen have their bans overturned as well. While I know it's 'the rule', it's a stupid rule, IMO. Trace amounts of something which legitimately could be from contaminated food or water should not result in bans. I don't know an appropriate threshold level, but it should certainly be higher than the amount in Bertie's blood.

On the other hand, I think the science behind the plasticizer test is solid, and I think he (and the rest of the field) should be evaluated on that front.

If he's going to be sanctioned, he should be sanctioned for something which actually improves performance and the sanctions should be handed out across the board, not just to him, because I doubt he's the only one with funny results from his platicizer test. My $.02.
Pretty much have to agree with this....
 
Apr 19, 2010
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Pretty much expectable.

Overturned by RFEC and then appealed by UCI/WADA. I say we might end up into a Valverdian-like case.
 
Jan 26, 2010
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http://biciciclismo.com/cas/site/noticias-ficha.asp?id=35526

Enrico Carpani weighs in

Translation:

The rules say that Clemb. is a 2 year sanction, regardless of the quantity.

Has expressed maximum trust in the RFEC. The quality of the work they have done is good. We do not have a position on the sanction.

Says Zapateros comments are a risk.

UCI will have a month to decide if it will go to CAS or not after RFEC
decision.
 
Oct 11, 2010
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indurain666 said:
Its going to be the most boring TDF ever: Schleck vs Evans?? Now that is sad...just as bad as 2008 when Contador was not there.
2008 was by far the best Tour of the last 3 years. 2009 was insanely boring and 2010 was not much better. Contador is boring as hell. What did he do to make last years Tour exciting? Gift a stage to Schleck?

You forgot to mention Basso, who is the favorite as far as I'm concerned. 2011 will be a good race.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Altitude said:
2008 was by far the best Tour of the last 3 years. 2009 was insanely boring and 2010 was not much better. Contador is boring as hell. What did he do to make last years Tour exciting? Gift a stage to Schleck?

You forgot to mention Basso, who is the favorite as far as I'm concerned. 2011 will be a good race.
I found 2010 the best. It was the closest, and there were so many controversial things happening: the stage 3 pile-up, the cobblestones stage, Fränk Schleck's crash, chaingate, Evans' elbow, the final time trial, the definite end of the Armstrong era ... whatever your opinion is on either of those things it definitely made for some good drama. The fact that Contador and Schleck were only divided by the ominous 39 seconds was the cherry on the cake.

But I agree: 2009 was rather boring and 2008 was really open. I also think Basso should be Schleck's biggest rival, with LEOPARD TREK having a stronger squad than Liquigas though.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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hrotha said:
No wonder they see us as a country of dopers.
What did it for me was the "investigation" Jaime Lissavetzky did on Valv-Piti: Valverde did not dope - end of investigation.

But I guess when it comes to our precious sport stars my country's anti-doping agency does not have the cleanest vest either. Politicians didn't get involved at the time, but that doesn't really make it better
 
May 3, 2010
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hrotha and others - a point I wanted to make in the Ricco thread, but I can make here.

We pointed out that a lot of the teams are connected into the state and a lot of politicians are keen to support teams.

There is another element to add into this and that is the general politicisation of the judiciary - who are often closely linked to political groups. Those same political groups - or allies of, who are bankrolling and supporting the teams.

There seem to be a lot of conflicts of interest stemming from a lack of separation between the government, the judiciary and the teams. There seem to be a lot of vested interests - not just economic as elsewhere, but also local politics.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Down-to-the-wire

Carpani (UCI): "Two years is the clenbuterol penalty irrespective of the quantity "
"The regulations say that clenbuterol is two-year ban regardless of the amount, "said Enrico Carpani, press officer of the International Cycling Union (UCI), to reporters in Madrid.

Carpani expressed "utmost confidence " in the Spanish Federation. "The quality of the work the Federation has done is good. We have no position on the penalty, "he added.

Also, Carpani, said that Twitter's Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero in ensuring that "there is no legal reason" to punish Contador is "a risk. "

Finally, confirmed the possibility of the UCI to appeal the decision of the Competition Committee of the Spanish Federation. "When the decision RFEC, the UCI will have a month to decide whether or not to appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, "he explained.

(http://biciciclismo.com)
 
hrotha said:
He's the presidente. We don't have a primer ministro. Now, how you render that in a language which uses a different political system is a matter of preference. You can adapt it as presidente = prime minister, but that's not necessarily a perfect solution, especially in an international context. Personally I prefer to say presidente = president and expect the audience to know Spain doesn't have the same political system as the UK. Unless you'd want to call Obama the prime minister of the US when talking in British English.
No, Obama would be the king in British English, as in the head of the state. For all intents and purposes Zapatero is the prime minister, since the head of state is King Juan Carlos.

Regards
GJ
 
131313 said:
I haven't read the thread, but I'll throw my thoughts out there.

I'm OK with overturning the ban, as long as the other (less well-known) guys nicked for tiny amounts of Clen have their bans overturned as well. While I know it's 'the rule', it's a stupid rule, IMO. Trace amounts of something which legitimately could be from contaminated food or water should not result in bans. I don't know an appropriate threshold level, but it should certainly be higher than the amount in Bertie's blood.

On the other hand, I think the science behind the plasticizer test is solid, and I think he (and the rest of the field) should be evaluated on that front.

If he's going to be sanctioned, he should be sanctioned for something which actually improves performance and the sanctions should be handed out across the board, not just to him, because I doubt he's the only one with funny results from his platicizer test. My $.02.
Hear, hear. I couldn't agree more.

Regards
GJ
 
Sep 25, 2009
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DAOTEC said:
WADA will not appeal Dimitrij Ovtcharov case.
snip

the first ever clenbuterol 100% acquittal.

first ever. funny how this major development gets overlooked despite its tremendous impact on contador's case.

wada after the initial hesitation decided to forgo it's right to appeal to cas despite the use of of two tests that wada did not accredit and normally frowns upon.

this acquittal also throws a wrench into the allegedly reported wada studies that imply remote possibility of contamination from eating meat. to remind everyone for the n-th time, german scientists postulated that ovcharov meal likely occured 3-5 days before, before before his sample taking whereas contador's tests showd clen one day, one day, one day after the fateful meal.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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131313 said:
I haven't read the thread, but I'll throw my thoughts out there.

I'm OK with overturning the ban, as long as the other (less well-known) guys nicked for tiny amounts of Clen have their bans overturned as well. While I know it's 'the rule', it's a stupid rule, IMO. Trace amounts of something which legitimately could be from contaminated food or water should not result in bans. I don't know an appropriate threshold level, but it should certainly be higher than the amount in Bertie's blood.

On the other hand, I think the science behind the plasticizer test is solid, and I think he (and the rest of the field) should be evaluated on that front.

If he's going to be sanctioned, he should be sanctioned for something which actually improves performance and the sanctions should be handed out across the board, not just to him, because I doubt he's the only one with funny results from his platicizer test. My $.02.
GJB123 said:
Hear, hear. I couldn't agree more.

Regards
GJ
AhhhhhhhhhHa
 
Jun 16, 2009
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DAOTEC said:
WADA will not appeal Dimitrij Ovtcharov case.

Van Houts and Berto will be acquitted and of the hook ...

11/02/2011: (http://www.ettu.org/news-WADA-does-no-appeal-before-CAS-OVTCHAROV-case-is-closed)
python said:
the first ever clenbuterol 100% acquittal.

first ever. funny how this major development gets overlooked despite its tremendous impact on contador's case.

wada after the initial hesitation decided to forgo it's right to appeal to cas despite the use of of two tests that wada did not accredit and normally frowns upon.

this acquittal also throws a wrench into the allegedly reported wada studies that imply remote possibility of contamination from eating meat. to remind everyone for the n-th time, german scientists postulated that ovcharov meal likely occured 3-5 days before, before before his sample taking whereas contador's tests showd clen one day, one day, one day after the fateful meal.
so again python

* Italy's Alessandro Colò: 200 picograms on April 25
* Philip Nielsen: 150 picograms on January 4 (confirmed)
^
* Germany's Dimitrij Ovtcharov: 75 picograms on September 22
* China's Fuyu Li: 50-<100 picograms on March 23

* Alberto Contador 50 picogram September 30
* Rudi van Houts: 30 picogram December 23

Cross contamination is all over society now a days ... can we safely say that WADA itself has put the threshold today "at least" @ 100 pico, to forgo it's right to appeal the Ovtcharov case and the strict liability doctrine of (The Code) is hereby declared RIP.

python said:
contador's tests showd clen one day, one day, one day after the fateful meal.
AC diagram: [https://skitch.com/2011.02.08-contador-50-16-7-14-pico.jpg]

Just to put it in perspective, a picogram is one part per quadrillion. A concentration of 50 picograms would be roughly equivalent to the surface area covered by 50 stamps on a piece of land the size of California and Oregon combined. And interestingly, if Contador’s samples had instead shown 50 pG/mL of 19-norandrosterone (Nandrolone), he’d be off the hook, as a substance the body naturally produces.
.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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I'm thinking that Daotec wrestled the tiger for that keg of beer, and won. Is anyone getting his cryptic pronouncements?

On the other hand, thanks to Python for jogging my memory. This could just be getting interesting...
 
Jul 17, 2010
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I think the way the Spanish federation has handled the Contador case has been a sad statement of unwillingness to stop doping in sport. I see no difference between an athlete eating tainted meat and an athlete's masseuse using testosterone cream during a massage. While it might be team management doctoring the food or massage oils it is still the riders responsibility to know what is going on around him or her. Isn't it?
 
Sep 25, 2009
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JMBeaushrimp said:
On the other hand, thanks to Python for jogging my memory. This could just be getting interesting...
we have to wait another day or two...

whilst on the one hand i disliked spanish political elites meddling into the contador case, i suspect zaparetto had some inkling as to what wada's inclination was regarding ovcharov case appeal. it's really stinks when political figures are so involved in the case that should be judged on pure facts and evidence wherever it may lead.

i believe rfec's decision will be in cas, as it should be, whoever brings it there and i'm not sure how it'll end up at this point..
 

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