Contador 2010

[Hugh Januss]

Tell us CC, how many races have you done that you became such an "expert" in tactics?

Solvang Century......once.

 

[Big GMaC]

Johan is the leader, was the leader....

Yates was listed as DS for the race so it wasn't JB's leadership?

All of AC's wins have come under Johann's leadership

Seriously CC... Can you not accept that Sean Yates was in the car for the first two weeks, running the race. I know he was called the Hog because he loves the attention/dope delete as you wish, but if he was the brilliant manager you say he is, he would not have come in and disrupted the relationship between Yates and Contador, his role would have been to observe Yates, not take over command, as that would have a negative effects by changing up the Rider - DS dynamic

 

[ravens]

best g0-d-mn laugh i have had all day. A tip of the hat and a hearty ' Thank you, sir! '

 

[Carboncrank]

So from here:

we have somehow gotten to here:

Interesting. Advance a premise, when asked to support said premise, advance another premise.

They are in no way contradictory.

Is the idea that it would take more than one tactic be to complicated for you?

 

[Publicus]

They are in no way contradictory.

Is the idea that it would take more than one tactic be to complicated for you?

So from here:

I saw tactics that put AC on position to get gains, which is Johann's main job,

we have somehow gotten to here:

It's not always about tactics to get gains. Sometimes it's about tactics to hold leads, or even don't lose enough to lose leads.

Interesting. Advance a premise, when asked to support said premise, advance another premise.

Your Premise: I saw tactics that put AC on position to get gains, which is [sic] Johann's main job

Facts offered to support the original premise: None

Instead you proclaim a NEW premise: It's not always about tactics to get gains. Sometimes it's about tactics to hold leads, or even don't lose enough to lose leads.

Perhaps you can spot the problem now....

EDIT: I forgot to add the final step: Pretend as if the newly advanced premise was the premise you original postulated and act indignant when called on your brazen attempt to move the goal posts.

 

[bianchigirl]

I think CC is a little confused about the respective role of the Directeur Sportif and the general manager - the former organises the race on the road, the latter organises the over arching structure of the team, wages, hiring and firing etc. Both the DS and the manager may pick a team. Clearly, Bruyneel likes to be top dog around the trophy race but that doesn't mean he doesn't have company - so let's place Sean Yates firmly in the car for the TdF 2007, shall we? http://www.seanyates.co.uk/july2007/index.htm and the Giro 2008 for that matter http://www.seanyates.co.uk/diary/may08.htm (and CC, before you start saying 'he only followed Kloeden', please explain how hard it is to call a time trial )

 

[bianchigirl]

CC start with the Equipe official history of the first 100 years of the TdF and then work your way through - Graham Watson has a good book on heroes of the TdF, Walsh's 'Inside the Tour de France' is fascinating for the chapter 'The Neophyte's Tale' alone (read and you'll find yourself wondering just what made Walsh alter his views so radically). I suggest you either have a Google for books on cycling or start a thread - there'll be plenty of recommendations from the learned and well read members of this forum.

But I don't get how you post here as if you're a master tactician and anyone who doesn't agree with Bruyneel is a fool then ask for recommendations on reading up on the history of the sport? Enlighten me.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Right, enough CC bullshit. Credibile evidentiary links:
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=12633 (bottom line, no Bruyneel)

http://www.roadcycling.com/articles/Team_Astana_receives_2008_Giro_d_Italia_invitation_002149.shtml
(second paragraph, with rider names, no Bruyneel)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/road/the-2008-giro-ditalia-the-best-field-of-the-year_75986 (Morobito section, no Bruyneel)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/road/giro-ditalia-2008-stage-7-live-coverage_76351 (3-31pm of the stage commentary)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/road/qa-with-astanas-sean-yates_76348
(Oh look...Velonews interviews Sean Yates, a week into the Giro.)

http://albertocontadornotebook.info/giro2008pressroom.html
(May 19th from the man himself)

I could go on, there are dozens of confirmation links.
Most of these links are US, yet no mention of the Hog.

I've sat in the back of a funeral car, on more than one occasion. I've never been a funeral director, though.

 

[bianchigirl]

Right, enough CC bullshit. Credibile evidentiary links:
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=12633 (bottom line, no Bruyneel)

http://www.roadcycling.com/articles/Team_Astana_receives_2008_Giro_d_Italia_invitation_002149.shtml
(second paragraph, with rider names, no Bruyneel)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/road/the-2008-giro-ditalia-the-best-field-of-the-year_75986 (Morobito section, no Bruyneel)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/road/giro-ditalia-2008-stage-7-live-coverage_76351 (3-31pm of the stage commentary)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/road/qa-with-astanas-sean-yates_76348
(Oh look...Velonews interviews Sean Yates, a week into the Giro.)

http://albertocontadornotebook.info/giro2008pressroom.html
(May 19th from the man himself)

I could go on, there are dozens of confirmation links.
Most of these links are US, yet no mention of the Hog.

I've sat in the back of a funeral car, on more than one occasion. I've never been a funeral director, though.

Thanks for the plethora of links MV - seems you may have Googling skills to match CC's (in my defense I was on a train crawling out of a snowbound southern English station at the time )

 

[42x16ss]

Do you have a book you'd recommend? Maybe from right after the invention of the wheel itself? Just kidding. I'm serious. Something post WWII?

Hmm, CC I think that you will find the La Vie Claire squads that Bianchigirl is referring were from waaaayyy back in the mid 1980's and contained little known riders such as Bernard Hinault, Greg LeMonde, Andy Hampsten, Steve Bauer and Jean Francois Bernard. And they are just the riders I can remember off the top of my head. The '09 Astana squad still looking so special now?

But with your infinite mastery of the Google search engine I'm sure you already knew this...

 

[bianchigirl]

Still say that Peugeot squad was pretty special - they had seven riders in the top ten (without the benefit of a race skewing team time trial) in positions 1-4 (so, yes, one team has taken all podium spots fanboys) and 6-8. The race was 4,448 kms in length raced over 14 stages, all of which Peugeot won.

But from my lifetime La Vie Claire were extraordinary and would beat USDIscatanacack into a cocked hat

 

[ravens]

I've sat in the back of a funeral car, on more than one occasion. I've never been a funeral director, though.

how far back in the car?

 

[42x16ss]

But from my lifetime La Vie Claire were extraordinary and would beat USDIscatanacack into a cocked hat

Yes indeedy. Just look at how many GT's members of that squad end up winning. Hinault had 10, LeMonde 3 and Hampsten 1. Bernard, Bauer and Rutimann were excellent domestiques who came close to winning a GT a few times too if I remember rightly.

The level of competition at the time was arguably higher than the last few years too with the likes of Fignon, Delgado, Roche, Kelly, Mottet, Anderson and Rooks all in the mix.

 

[bianchigirl]

In 1986 the LVC TdF team were 1st, 2nd, 4th & 7th in the top 10 on GC, took 3 of the 4 jerseys and were the best team and had 5 stage wins shared between Hinault, Lemond and Bernard.

Contrast to the 'best GC team of all time' Astana 2009: 3 stage wins, MJ and team prize, 1st, 3rd & 6th in the top 10 on GC.

Like I say, given the supposed quality of the riders at his disposal, Bruyneel's results are really rather poor.

 

[Oldman]

In 1986 the LVC TdF team were 1st, 2nd, 4th & 7th in the top 10 on GC, took 3 of the 4 jerseys and were the best team and had 5 stage wins shared between Hinault, Lemond and Bernard.

Contrast to the 'best GC team of all time' Astana 2009: 3 stage wins, MJ and team prize, 1st, 3rd & 6th in the top 10 on GC.

Like I say, given the supposed quality of the riders at his disposal, Bruyneel's results are really rather poor.

Again an apples/oranges argument except that it highlights Bruyneel's focus on protection. And control. That LVC team had some headstrong individuals as well.

 

[Carboncrank]

Right, enough CC bullshit. Credibile evidentiary links:
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=12633 (bottom line, no Bruyneel)

http://www.roadcycling.com/articles/Team_Astana_receives_2008_Giro_d_Italia_invitation_002149.shtml
(second paragraph, with rider names, no Bruyneel)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/road/the-2008-giro-ditalia-the-best-field-of-the-year_75986 (Morobito section, no Bruyneel)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/road/giro-ditalia-2008-stage-7-live-coverage_76351 (3-31pm of the stage commentary)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/road/qa-with-astanas-sean-yates_76348
(Oh look...Velonews interviews Sean Yates, a week into the Giro.)

http://albertocontadornotebook.info/giro2008pressroom.html
(May 19th from the man himself)

I could go on, there are dozens of confirmation links.
Most of these links are US, yet no mention of the Hog.

I've sat in the back of a funeral car, on more than one occasion. I've never been a funeral director, though.

You've gone through a lot of trouble to proved what had already been established which was Yates was listed as DS and call the race in the beginning. These quotes cover up to the first rest day.

This one places him at the race for 19. If he's there, he's not in the bus, he's in the car. If he's at the race, in the car, there's certainly nothing happening that he disagrees with, which places him in charge over Yates no matter what you call him.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/news/2008-giro-ditalia-stage-19-live-updates_76822

Then I come back to this which seem to get ingnored every time I post it.
What part of this is not clear to you?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/06/road/bruyneel-were-seeing-the-birth-of-a-great-champion_77000

Astana team manager Johan Bruyneel celebrated his 11th grand tour victory from behind the steering wheel of a team car with Alberto Contador’s unlikely Giro d’Italia win Sunday.

Not quite - JB did not arrive at the Giro in 2008 until the last week, and Alberto was already in the Pink Jersey. Sean Yates was the DS for that race.

All these hoops you have to go through trying to prove what? That Bruyneel had nothing to do with Aberto's success?
He took a promising climber that hadn't won bubcus and helped him become the current best Grand Tour rider in the sport. A one race racer just like Lance. In fact Bruyneel has several times called him "the next Lance Armstrong".

Through all this I've said not disrespectful about Yates. It's like in American football seeing former assistant coaches of Bill Walsh go on to be great head coaches. I'm glad to see him running Sky. So far he's looking very good. Wiggins is a threat to win the tour if Astana somehow screws up Contador.

 

[Carboncrank]

In 1986 the LVC TdF team were 1st, 2nd, 4th & 7th in the top 10 on GC, took 3 of the 4 jerseys and were the best team and had 5 stage wins shared between Hinault, Lemond and Bernard.

Contrast to the 'best GC team of all time' Astana 2009: 3 stage wins, MJ and team prize, 1st, 3rd & 6th in the top 10 on GC.

Like I say, given the supposed quality of the riders at his disposal, Bruyneel's results are really rather poor.

If Condador had done what he was told they'd have had good shot at a podium sweep. Levi could have possibly made it all four. It was clearly the equal of the team you mention.

Hinault seems to me to be about raw aggression all the time. That type doesn't interest me much. I love it when tough guys get beat by smart guys.

I'll take Ali over Forman or Frasier every time.

 

[Publicus]

If Condador had done what he was told they'd have had good shot at a podium sweep. Levi could have possibly made it all four. It was clearly the equal of the team you mention.

Hinault seems to me to be about raw aggression all the time. That type doesn't interest me much. I love it when tough guys get beat by smart guys.

I'll take Ali over Forman or Frasier every time.

No they wouldn't have. That horse has been beaten to death in an avalanche of posts. Once Levi was out, there was no way they could sweep the podium. And if anything, Kloden's implosion was responsible for keeping Lance on podium. If he finishes with the Brothers Schleck and AC, Lance doesn't finish 3rd.

 

[pmcg76]

If Condador had done what he was told they'd have had good shot at a podium sweep. Levi could have possibly made it all four. It was clearly the equal of the team you mention.

Hinault seems to me to be about raw aggression all the time. That type doesn't interest me much. I love it when tough guys get beat by smart guys.

I'll take Ali over Forman or Frasier every time.

In case you didnt know, Hinault was not exactly doing what he was supposed to do in 86 which was to rider in suppport of LeMond. The team was effectively split in two as confirmed by the riders, they werent even eating together by the end of that race and they still managed to be the best team ever.

In 2008, Bruyneel had a great team with the best stage racer in the world on his books. Now he has team that will be rubbish in a year like Discovery 06. What a genius.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Then I come back to this which seem to get ingnored every time I post it.
What part of this is not clear to you?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/06/road/bruyneel-were-seeing-the-birth-of-a-great-champion_77000

Astana team manager Johan Bruyneel celebrated his 11th grand tour victory from behind the steering wheel of a team car with Alberto Contador’s unlikely Giro d’Italia win Sunday.

Through all this I've said not disrespectful about Yates. It's like in American football seeing former assistant coaches of Bill Walsh go on to be great head coaches. I'm glad to see him running Sky. So far he's looking very good. Wiggins is a threat to win the tour if Astana somehow screws up Contador.

Being the consumate fanboy, trying to attribute this victory to Bruyneel, simply because he turned up and drove the car for the final stage, is being disrespectful to Yates, who planned and orchestrated the victory: period.

The fact that Velonews forgets who they spent the race talking to, because
a name that fanboys can relate to, turns up, once again shows why many fans can't be bothered with their site.

The fact that Bruyneel seems happy to try and steal Yate's moment, confirms what many feel about the Hog's character.

Armstrong, Bruyneel and fanboys would suck all the life out of the sport, in the pursuit of self-gratification.

If Condador had done what he was told they'd have had good shot at a podium sweep. Levi could have possibly made it all four. It was clearly the equal of the team you mention.

Once again, you display incredible ignorance of the sport.
This time it's Andy Schleck receiving your disrespect.
A blight has descended.

 

[ravens]

If Condador had done what he was told they'd have had good shot at a podium sweep. Levi could have possibly made it all four. It was clearly the equal of the team you mention.

Hinault seems to me to be about raw aggression all the time. That type doesn't interest me much. I love it when tough guys get beat by smart guys.

I'll take Ali over Forman or Frasier every time.

oy vey, talk about stuck on stupid! not only has it been beaten to death, it's like jason from halloween or friday the 13th (sorry, never been a slasher fan, i don't know the diff.).

You can kill it all you want, it really doesn't care.... I think Jason/CC actually likes it.

Alternatively: I am getting a visual of that Warner Bros cartoon of the sheep dog and wiley coyote clocking in each morning with their lunch pals and then the sheep dog keeps blowing up wiley coyote all day long and at 5 o'clock the whistle blows and they clock out together, say goodbye politely and go their separate ways.

It is hilariously funny. But I can't make up my mind what's funnier: That CC keeps getting blown up or that the rest of you bother to engage him.

In any event, y'all are quite entertaining. I suppose thanks are in order, 'tho I've no idea why.

 

[Carboncrank]

CC start with the Equipe official history of the first 100 years of the TdF and then work your way through - Graham Watson has a good book on heroes of the TdF, Walsh's 'Inside the Tour de France' is fascinating for the chapter 'The Neophyte's Tale' alone (read and you'll find yourself wondering just what made Walsh alter his views so radically). I suggest you either have a Google for books on cycling or start a thread - there'll be plenty of recommendations from the learned and well read members of this forum.

But I don't get how you post here as if you're a master tactician and anyone who doesn't agree with Bruyneel is a fool then ask for recommendations on reading up on the history of the sport? Enlighten me.

My local library has the Equipe official history. I'll go pick it up. Thanks.
Also I ordered the Grahm Watson book from amazon.

Just becuase I rather vigourously argue my positions doesn't really mean I think I'm a master anything although my guitar chops aren't bad when I'm well practiced.

I'm repeating myself when I admit my fandom begins with what I saw of LeMond and then on Wide World of Sports which was nothing compared to the coverage available now on the net and Versus.

 

[BroDeal]

My local library has the Equipe official history. I'll go pick it up. Thanks.
Also I ordered the Grahm Watson book from amazon.

Just becuase I rather vigourously argue my positions doesn't really mean I think I'm a master anything although my guitar chops aren't bad when I'm well practiced.

I'm repeating myself when I admit my fandom begins with what I saw of LeMond and then on Wide World of Sports which was nothing compared to the coverage available now on the net and Versus.

Do you think any of us really give a damn about what you plan on reading? You are as narcissistic as that fraud you defend.

 

[Carboncrank]

No they wouldn't have. That horse has been beaten to death in an avalanche of posts. Once Levi was out, there was no way they could sweep the podium. And if anything, Kloden's implosion was responsible for keeping Lance on podium. If he finishes with the Brothers Schleck and AC, Lance doesn't finish 3rd.

All Kloden needed was a breather.

 

[Oldman]

All Kloden needed was a breather.

I think the general suggestion is you should take a breather, read the books Bianchigirl recommended, talk to some actual racers and come back in fully refreshed.