Contador 2010

[Publicus]

Without trying to join the never ending saga of dealing with CC, I would have to agree with Publicus (and prolly a whole slew of other people). Who and when did anyone sacrifice themselves for AC to gain time?

As a snide aside, did anyone else on Astana sacrifice themself for any other team member? When/where?

Honest questions: Lastly, since this is AC 2010, not Astana 2009, who will sacrifice themselves for AC at the tdf this year? how/when? Is it realistic to believe that he will get the kind of support to make his goal significantly more obtainable this year than last? Or did he get more support last year or will this year be more to his benefit? (Ok, that last question also had some sarcasm.)


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Depends on who is at the Tour, but I suspect Navarro is going to go deep for him in the mountains (same with Hernandez if he makes the team) and Noval on the flats/cobbles. Can't speak for anyone else yet, but those two seem no brainers. So far everyone is saying the right things at Astana, but it's too early to tell if they will walk the walk.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

In pink in a race that was far from decided.

Bruyneel was in the car on stage 19 where it was important that Contador not lose his cool just because Di Luca was up the road.

That last week was brilliantly raced.

Well Yates and AC appeared to have done alright without JB.
Especially considering AC had been at the beach a week before the race started and then breaking his elbow during the race.

JB's smart strategy in that Giro was to arrive in time for the photo-op.

 

[bianchigirl]

What Bruyneel turned up at the end to take the credit? Why do you think Sky wanted Yates as a DS? Because he's a proven GT winner of a difficult race with an underprepared rider. Bruyneel being in the car means nothing more than that Bruyneel sat in the car for the last stage of the Giro. He wasn't even particularly motivated by working with Contador: "I had a professional relationship with Contador. The click to turn it into a partnership, like with Lance, never came. It had nothing to do with the comeback from Lance, it existed before. Between us there was always tension. I don't know why. For both of us it's better to split paths. Maybe later we can get back together when he's become older and wiser. The problem was that whatever I decided - the race plan, the team tactics, the riders selection - he always expressed his doubts. We all have the experience: we don't make mistakes anymore; while Alberto still has much to learn." Good job he didn't listen on Verbier then, wasn't it?

BTW found this blinding quote from 'Mr Clean' Rebellin: "It's a nice thing. He wants to compete, to feel the emotions, to have an objective to fight for. If he returns, he'll surely be competitive," said 37-year-old Gerolsteiner rider Davide Rebellin. "He's competed in all sports ... for him from the moment he starts training, he'll be on his way to competing. I know how him well and how he is. He'll do all he needs to get the results." Can't you just see the knowing smile on the face of one old doper talking about another?

Actually, if you think about the riders Bruyneel has had on his teams over the years, outside the Tour de France his results have been poor - no wonder he languishes way down on the list of all time best DSes. The mark of a great DS (and team manager) is the ability to get the best out of all riders on all terrains and have the palmares to reflect that. He may claim the Giro/Vuelta double but he wasn't responsible and Contador has credited Yates - and particularly Galopin - for those wins and his growth as a rider during the 'Bruyneel Years'. But for Bruyneel to never have won a Classic with the talent at his disposal is just a joke.

As for Astana 2010, I think they're being admirably low key and giving themselves time to gel as a team - none of the Sky bombast and death by Twitter, just quietly going about their business. I reckon Pereiro will do a monster turn as required and Vino may just be the joker in the pack that totally disrupts the rhythm of the soft tapping GeriShack

 

[Mellow Velo]

In pink in a race that was far from decided.

Bruyneel was in the car on stage 19 where it was important that Contador not lose his cool just because Di Luca was up the road.

That last week was brilliantly raced.

Nice pick. Stage 19 to Monte Pora was a great spectacle. Full of excitement.

Obviously though, you didn't see the stage, because that is exactly what happened.
Contador blew his cool, because he couldn't follow Ricco, when he attacked.
He needed 3 stage Sella of the CERA, to drag him to the finish.

Yates DS'd the victory, as he had done in 2005, with Savoldelli.
We had his interviews, discussing his tactics, from the team car, throughout the race, on Eurosport.

Bruyneel only turned up because the race was won.

 

[bianchigirl]

DiLuca and then Ricco went up the road as I recall and yes, Eurosport brought us Yates' words of wisdom. Like I say, Sky need a DS who has GT winning chops and it annoys me that neither Yates or Gallopin get the credit they deserve for winning the races that Bruyneel couldn't be bothered to turn up for because they weren't the TdF.

 

[karlboss]

Without trying to join the never ending saga of dealing with CC, I would have to agree with Publicus (and prolly a whole slew of other people). Who and when did anyone sacrifice themselves for AC to gain time?

As a snide aside, did anyone else on Astana sacrifice themself for any other team member? When/where?

Honest questions: Lastly, since this thread is AC 2010, not Astana 2009, who will sacrifice themselves for AC at the tdf this year? how/when? Is it realistic to believe that he will get the kind of support to make his goal significantly more obtainable this year than last? Or did he get more support last year or will this year be more to his benefit? (Ok, that last question also had some sarcasm.)

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Navarro will do his best, but i think the key support will be pereiro, even if it is just hanging in, like horner for evans. Vinokourov attacks it will be up to the team to decide how to use that fact to help and not hinder AC.

 

[Carboncrank]

Which were what exactly? He gained time on the following stages: (1), (4), (7), (15), (17) and (18). Stages (1) and (18) were ITTs, so there was no tactics involved, as was Stage (4)--TTT. So that leaves tactics for Stages (7) and (17), which should make your job fairly easy.

I've described how I saw 7, 15, and 17 more than once.

Simply put, they do what Johann's teams have done for years, but this time they did it with the strongest GC team ever assembled.

Who was in control of the race when AC attacked on 7? Astana
What team had more than one rider in the last group when AC attacked on 15? None
I agree with Johann on 17.

http://www.steephill.tv/players/ver...instance=9CB581C0-BF42-61C5-368E-F6AC2BEFC16E

AC's attack delighted the Schlecks.

AC sucked Lances wheel for miles on Ventoux, which is what Lance was there for. The team delivered him up the slopes.

Then there's the issue of what kinds of shenanigans from other teams you eliminate because of the strength and experience of your own team. After 17, no other team really had any options. What are they going to try that Astana could not protect?

You can second guess last years race all the way to July if you want. I don't see any errors in Johann's tactics last year. I do find a couple from AC however.

 

[Carboncrank]

Well Yates and AC appeared to have done alright without JB.
Especially considering AC had been at the beach a week before the race started and then breaking his elbow during the race.

JB's smart strategy in that Giro was to arrive in time for the photo-op.

The claim was, Johan was not in the car for 3 of AC's 4 Grand Tour wins.

He, in fact, was, in all but the 08 Vuelta.

Nothing I have said has taken anything away from AC, and the team's, incredible performance.

It is my all time favorite race as a fan.

Just quit acting like Bruyneel had nothing to do with it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The claim was, Johan was not in the car for 3 of AC's 4 Grand Tour wins.

He, in fact, was, in all but the 08 Vuelta.

Nothing I have said has taken anything away from AC, and the team's, incredible performance.

It is my all time favorite race as a fan.

Just quit acting like Bruyneel had nothing to do with it.

Why.........??

 

[Hugh Januss]

The claim was, Johan was not in the car for 3 of AC's 4 Grand Tour wins.

He, in fact, was, in all but the 08 Vuelta.

Nothing I have said has taken anything away from AC, and the team's, incredible performance.

It is my all time favorite race as a fan.

Just quit acting like Bruyneel had nothing to do with it.

What, all time favorite race? Have you ever seen another race in your life? The only thing the 2009 tour had going for it was Lance and what would he pull next. As a race it was dead boring.

 

[bianchigirl]

Sorry CC, have to stop you there - strongest GC team ever assembled????? You really are having a laugh. La Vie Claire would certainly have something to say about that, as would the 1908 Peugeot squad that won every stage of that race and took the top 4 spots on GC (and that's when the Tour was unimaginably tough - the kind of thing that would have Boss Hog crying into their bidons). Then there are the incredible national squads that contested the race - the Italian teams featuring Bartali and Coppi and the sublime French national squads of the 30's with Pelissier, Leduq and Magne at their heart (read their palmares and weep messrs Leipheimer, Popovych and Kloeden - and Leduq has as many stage wins to his credit as Armstrong). Do at least read a decent history of stage racing or use your fabled Googling skills to do some research and stop yourself from looking an utter a*se by making such easily refuted claims.

And do elaborate on AC's 'tactical errors' - attacking at Verbier? Dropping Kloeden? When riding for a team that were working against you with a DS who by his own admission didn't know how to handle you and never entered into a 'partnership' with you? I'd say the errors were Bruyneel's all along the line starting with cr*p man management downwards.

 

[bianchigirl]

The claim was, Johan was not in the car for 3 of AC's 4 Grand Tour wins.

He, in fact, was, in all but the 08 Vuelta.

Nothing I have said has taken anything away from AC, and the team's, incredible performance.

It is my all time favorite race as a fan.

Just quit acting like Bruyneel had nothing to do with it.

Presumambly you've only been a fan since 2009 then? Did you not see the incredible Tours of the 80s when the jersey would change hands from day to day and riders would (shock horror!) get on with the job of attacking and trying to win the race without earpieces? These kinds of statements do your pose as a 'serious' and 'knowledgeable' fan absolutely no favours. However, they certainly strengthen the idea that you're a paid chimp churning out pro Bruyneel/Armstrong inanities for tuppence an hour

 

[Publicus]

I've described how I saw 7, 15, and 17 more than once.

Simply put, they do what Johann's teams have done for years, but this time they did it with the strongest GC team ever assembled.

Who was in control of the race when AC attacked on 7? Astana
What team had more than one rider in the last group when AC attacked on 15? None
I agree with Johann on 17.

http://www.steephill.tv/players/ver...instance=9CB581C0-BF42-61C5-368E-F6AC2BEFC16E

AC's attack delighted the Schlecks.

AC sucked Lances wheel for miles on Ventoux, which is what Lance was there for. The team delivered him up the slopes.

Then there's the issue of what kinds of shenanigans from other teams you eliminate because of the strength and experience of your own team. After 17, no other team really had any options. What are they going to try that Astana could not protect?

You can second guess last years race all the way to July if you want. I don't see any errors in Johann's tactics last year. I do find a couple from AC however.

1. On Arcalis, Astana was in control of the race, but the tactic they were using was not, as you imply, designed to set AC up to gain time. It was not, as you suggest, classic Bruyneel. It was something, but it was not designed to gain AC time (see the hissy fit thrown by Armstrong, Levi and subsequently Bruyneel about AC's "unplanned" counter-attack).

2. On Stage 15, Saxo Bank had two riders in the final group, as did Astana. Astana did not control Stage 15, at least not in the traditional sense. Liquigas, then Garmin and finally Saxo Bank controlled the run into Verbier. But I would be interested in you explaining the Astana's tactic that set AC up to gain time.

3. What were Astana's tactics on Stage 17 that set AC up to gain time?

I'm not second-guessing anything here. I'm asking you to demonstrate the Astana tactics that set AC to gain time on the relevant stages where he gained time. What you've offered above is not an answer to that question.

EDIT: Here's your original comment that sparked my question:

I saw tactics that put AC on position to get gains, which is Johann's main job,

 

[Publicus]

ALL of Alberto's GT wins, and his other major wins for that matter, have come under the Leadership of Johan.

Bruyneel was not the DS in the car for any of AC's first 3 GT wins (google it). He was in the car for the 2009 TdF. He was in the car for all of Lance's major victories. Perhaps that's why you are confused.

The claim was, Johan was not in the car for 3 of AC's 4 Grand Tour wins.

He, in fact, was, in all but the 08 Vuelta.

Nothing I have said has taken anything away from AC, and the team's, incredible performance.

It is my all time favorite race as a fan.

Just quit acting like Bruyneel had nothing to do with it.

Just so you know the actual claim (that all of AC's GT wins came under JB's leadership--they did not). He was not the DS in the car for two of the four (showing up the last week of the Giro does not a DS make).

 

[Carboncrank]

Just so you know the actual claim (that all of AC's GT wins came under JB's leadership--they did not). He was not the DS in the car for two of the four (showing up the last week of the Giro does not a DS make).

Any time Johan is in the car, in a race, he is DS. Do you think someone else is going to jump in and say, "I'm the DS, let's do this instead."? Johan is the leader, was the leader, is always the leader of his teams when he's in the car. To argue otherwise is laughable.

You are dancing on the head of a pin. There is no practical point you can possibly be making.

Yates was listed as DS for the race so it wasn't JB's leadership? That is foolish.

How many days in the car for you to call him DS? Is it just a matter of math for you? Do you know details of his involvement before he came?

I agree that all of AC's wins have come under Johann's leadership. Even the one he didn't run from in the car.

 

[Carboncrank]

What, all time favorite race? Have you ever seen another race in your life? The only thing the 2009 tour had going for it was Lance and what would he pull next. As a race it was dead boring.

If you'd bothered to read what I was responding to you'd know I was talking about the 08 Giro, not the 09 Tour.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Any time Johan is in the car, in a race, he is DS. Do you think someone else is going to jump in and say, "I'm the DS, let's do this instead."? Johan is the leader, was the leader, is always the leader of his teams when he's in the car. To argue otherwise is laughable.

You are dancing on the head of a pin. There is no practical point you can possibly be making.

Yates was listed as DS for the race so it wasn't JB's leadership? That is foolish.

How many days in the car for you to call him DS? Is it just a matter of math for you? Do you know details of his involvement before he came?

I agree that all of AC's wins have come under Johann's leadership. Even the one he didn't run from in the car.

Johan was not a DS at Astana - he was the 'General Manager'.
http://www.astana-cyclingteam.com/management_staff.html

The DS's were, Yates, DeMol, Ekimov, Shefer, Gallopin.

 

[Publicus]

Any time Johan is in the car, in a race, he is DS. Do you think someone else is going to jump in and say, "I'm the DS, let's do this instead."? Johan is the leader, was the leader, is always the leader of his teams when he's in the car. To argue otherwise is laughable.

You are dancing on the head of a pin. There is no practical point you can possibly be making.

Yates was listed as DS for the race so it wasn't JB's leadership? That is foolish.

How many days in the car for you to call him DS? Is it just a matter of math for you? Do you know details of his involvement before he came?

I agree that all of AC's wins have come under Johann's leadership. Even the one he didn't run from in the car.

My point was made. You are dancing mightily to find a point, but instead are coming up with air. He was DS for the two Tour victories. The fact that you can't accept that is irrelevant at this point.

 

[Carboncrank]

Sorry CC, have to stop you there - strongest GC team ever assembled????? You really are having a laugh. La Vie Claire would certainly have something to say about that, as would the 1908 Peugeot squad that won every stage of that race and took the top 4 spots on GC (and that's when the Tour was unimaginably tough - the kind of thing that would have Boss Hog crying into their bidons). Then there are the incredible national squads that contested the race - the Italian teams featuring Bartali and Coppi and the sublime French national squads of the 30's with Pelissier, Leduq and Magne at their heart (read their palmares and weep messrs Leipheimer, Popovych and Kloeden - and Leduq has as many stage wins to his credit as Armstrong). Do at least read a decent history of stage racing or use your fabled Googling skills to do some research and stop yourself from looking an utter a*se by making such easily refuted claims.

And do elaborate on AC's 'tactical errors' - attacking at Verbier? Dropping Kloeden? When riding for a team that were working against you with a DS who by his own admission didn't know how to handle you and never entered into a 'partnership' with you? I'd say the errors were Bruyneel's all along the line starting with cr*p man management downwards.

I defer to your knowledge of the glorious past of racing.

Do you have a book you'd recommend? Maybe from right after the invention of the wheel itself? Just kidding. I'm serious. Something post WWII?

You know, of course, that I disagree with you about AC being worked against.

 

[Polish]

self deleted - OT

 

[Polish]

Alberto tweeted.....good climbing day....red bike w/saggy chain

4200 m/ascn good feelings!
http://tweetphoto.com/10960206
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.
.

 

[Carboncrank]

1. On Arcalis, Astana was in control of the race, but the tactic they were using was not, as you imply, designed to set AC up to gain time. It was not, as you suggest, classic Bruyneel. It was something, but it was not designed to gain AC time (see the hissy fit thrown by Armstrong, Levi and subsequently Bruyneel about AC's "unplanned" counter-attack).

I know you've heard this before. It was too early in the tour to attack on a climb in windy conditions that could not net you much time. Astana's plan was to control the front push the pace so no other riders could attack. The fact that he attacked successfully from there proves they were doing just that. It netted 20 seconds. It was not worth the effort. Johann was right.

2. On Stage 15, Saxo Bank had two riders in the final group, as did Astana. Astana did not control Stage 15, at least not in the traditional sense. Liquigas, then Garmin and finally Saxo Bank controlled the run into Verbier. But I would be interested in you explaining the Astana's tactic that set AC up to gain time.

Kloden had been in the group too until not long before AC attacked. Astana had done it's job again, getting AC with protection to the point where his competitors were gassed. This is where he won the TdF. This was the stage, this was the only attack he needed to win the tour. After the attack other riders started to bridge back up and Lance and Kloden slowed the pace.

3. What were Astana's tactics on Stage 17 that set AC up to gain time?

It's not always about tactics to get gains. Sometimes it's about tactics to hold leads, or even don't lose enough to lose leads. AC took an unnecessary risk.

This stage was about holding his comfortable lead. Like stage 19 of the Giro with Bruyneel in the car was about don't get overexcited and risk blowing up.

Johann is a conservative director. Actually, in most team sports you find conservative managers being most successful.

Get a lead, hold it, don't take unnecessary risks.

 

[Race Radio]

I know you've heard this before. It was too early in the tour to attack on a climb in windy conditions that could not net you much time. Astana's plan was to control the front push the pace so no other riders could attack. The fact that he attacked successfully from there proves they were doing just that. It netted 20 seconds. It was not worth the effort. Johann was right.



Kloden had been in the group too until not long before AC attacked. Astana had done it's job again, getting AC with protection to the point where his competitors were gassed. This is where he won the TdF. This was the stage, this was the only attack he needed to win the tour. After the attack other riders started to bridge back up and Lance and Kloden slowed the pace.



It's not always about tactics to get gains. Sometimes it's about tactics to hold leads, or even don't lose enough to lose leads. AC took an unnecessary risk.

This stage was about holding his comfortable lead. Like stage 19 of the Giro with Bruyneel in the car was about don't get overexcited and risk blowing up.

Johann is a conservative director. Actually, in most team sports you find conservative managers being most successful.

Get a lead, hold it, don't take unnecessary risks.

Tell us CC, how many races have you done that you became such an "expert" in tactics?

 

[Publicus]

I know you've heard this before. It was too early in the tour to attack on a climb in windy conditions that could not net you much time. Astana's plan was to control the front push the pace so no other riders could attack. The fact that he attacked successfully from there proves they were doing just that. It netted 20 seconds. It was not worth the effort. Johann was right.



Kloden had been in the group too until not long before AC attacked. Astana had done it's job again, getting AC with protection to the point where his competitors were gassed. This is where he won the TdF. This was the stage, this was the only attack he needed to win the tour. After the attack other riders started to bridge back up and Lance and Kloden slowed the pace.



It's not always about tactics to get gains. Sometimes it's about tactics to hold leads, or even don't lose enough to lose leads. AC took an unnecessary risk.

This stage was about holding his comfortable lead. Like stage 19 of the Giro with Bruyneel in the car was about don't get overexcited and risk blowing up.

Johann is a conservative director. Actually, in most team sports you find conservative managers being most successful.

Get a lead, hold it, don't take unnecessary risks.

So from here:

I saw tactics that put AC on position to get gains, which is Johann's main job,

we have somehow gotten to here:

It's not always about tactics to get gains. Sometimes it's about tactics to hold leads, or even don't lose enough to lose leads.

Interesting. Advance a premise, when asked to support said premise, advance another premise.

 

[Hugh Januss]

If you'd bothered to read what I was responding to you'd know I was talking about the 08 Giro, not the 09 Tour.

Sorry, I guess I was thrown off by you assertation that JB had any more to do with the result than showing up in time for the podium pictures. You claimed he was involved in the team strategy so I naturally assumed you were talking about a race where he actually was.