Contador 2010

[Oldman]

Not really surprised. I think Specialized and the ToC would love it if AC showed up, actually. It would be a boon for both of them--and me personally (could see him in person). And it would absolutely unnerve Mr. Armstrong.

I'm all for it. Perhaps we can start a draft Contador ToC campaign.

If it unnerves LA the spin machine will simply highlight his dedicated and unflinching support for Levi. It also doesn't make any sense for him to be killing himself totally. He'll be the model teammate for this race.

 

[Publicus]

If it unnerves LA the spin machine will simply highlight his dedicated and unflinching support for Levi. It also doesn't make any sense for him to be killing himself totally. He'll be the model teammate for this race.

Totally agree with you. AC wouldn't be racing either, which is why I highly doubt he would do it. Personally would love it, but I suspect he'll be in various parts of the Pyrenees (French), Alps (French), Spain and Belgium during that part of the year training in anticipation for the Dauphine and Tour.

 

[Carboncrank]

Six months ago, Benjamin Noval’s situation had nothing to do with the happy moments that he treasures these days. To Noval, it felt like a kick in the gut that Bruyneel did not take him to the Tour and he hit the ceiling, with good reason. “I’ll never stay on a team with Bruyneel on it, there are no words. I can’t be around a person who treats me like that after six years together,” he said then.

Benjamin Noval was sure that the criteria for the decision were not based on sport. “They’ve always told me that I was going to ride the Tour, but in three days, everything’s changed. It’s clear that they did it to weaken Alberto and benefit Armstrong,” he spat. Now things have changed and it seems that he’ll be back to put things right.

WoW! He must be the first rider to ever be bitter about not making the tour team.

Chris Horner took it like a man.

 

[Race Radio]

Chris Horner took it like a man.

You talk to Chris lately?

 

[Publicus]

WoW! He must be the first rider to ever be bitter about not making the tour team.

Chris Horner took it like a man.

Apparently you were born late July 2009 and missed Mr. Horner's expressing his disappointment, etcetera in the media. Perhaps you can utilize your newly honed google skills and dig up his statements. Or does your LiveStrong browser block those types of comments?

 

[BroDeal]

WoW! He must be the first rider to ever be bitter about not making the tour team.

Chris Horner took it like a man.

The same Chris Horner who asked to be released from his contract so he could find another team to race the Tour with? That Chris Horner??

Just what we have come to expect: Clueless as always.

 

[gatete]

WoW! He must be the first rider to ever be bitter about not making the tour team.

Chris Horner took it like a man.

If you mean bashing AC on national TV while showing sour grapes and glorifying Lance, then yes for sure he took it like a man, I guess that's very "manly" for some people.

 

[Oldman]

The same Chris Horner who asked to be released from his contract so he could find another team to race the Tour with? That Chris Horner??

Just what we have come to expect: Clueless as always.

Horner has some serious bills to pay. He needs to be on the bike as much as it pays him.

 

[kurtinsc]

Six months ago, Benjamin Noval’s situation had nothing to do with the happy moments that he treasures these days. To Noval, it felt like a kick in the gut that Bruyneel did not take him to the Tour and he hit the ceiling, with good reason. “I’ll never stay on a team with Bruyneel on it, there are no words. I can’t be around a person who treats me like that after six years together,” he said then.

Benjamin Noval was sure that the criteria for the decision were not based on sport. “They’ve always told me that I was going to ride the Tour, but in three days, everything’s changed. It’s clear that they did it to weaken Alberto and benefit Armstrong,” he spat. Now things have changed and it seems that he’ll be back to put things right.

Just curious... but if it were about "sport"... wouldn't you expect Horner on the team over Noval?

The way I understood it, Bruyneel was originally going to take Noval and Horner. But Astana insisted one Kazak rider be on the team. So Muravyev took one spot. Lance wanted "his" guy in Horner for the last spot, Contador wanted "his" guy in Noval. Bruyneel went "none of the above" and took Rast to (in theory) avoid conflict.

But if the team were based on who would make the team stronger... I think Horner > Noval... don't you? Horner was riding pretty strong in the Giro before crashing out last year.

 

[BroDeal]

Horner has some serious bills to pay. He needs to be on the bike as much as it pays him.

A bit of a non sequitur there...

 

[Publicus]

Just curious... but if it were about "sport"... wouldn't you expect Horner on the team over Noval?

The way I understood it, Bruyneel was originally going to take Noval and Horner. But Astana insisted one Kazak rider be on the team. So Muravyev took one spot. Lance wanted "his" guy in Horner for the last spot, Contador wanted "his" guy in Noval. Bruyneel went "none of the above" and took Rast to (in theory) avoid conflict.

But if the team were based on who would make the team stronger... I think Horner > Noval... don't you? Horner was riding pretty strong in the Giro before crashing out last year.

Did Astana really need another climbing domestique for the TdF? It's not like there was any stage where the assaulted the peloton in USPS-Disco train. Plus how much work was really done on AC's behalf in the mountains? I don't recall any serious attempts to mark attacks except for Kloden on Stages 16 and 17. AC marked his own attacks. Horner would have added little from sporting context and would have created major drama from an internal team context.

Just reminds me of how stupid Bruyneel was last year (and please spare me the crap that he won so how stupid could he be). He jeopardized a potential Tour victory to help an aging athlete's vain attempt to recapture old glory at the expense of the best stage racer in the world. Frankly he's lucky AC had the good sense not to trust him.

 

[UpTheRoad]

Just curious... but if it were about "sport"... wouldn't you expect Horner on the team over Noval?

The way I understood it, Bruyneel was originally going to take Noval and Horner. But Astana insisted one Kazak rider be on the team. So Muravyev took one spot. Lance wanted "his" guy in Horner for the last spot, Contador wanted "his" guy in Noval. Bruyneel went "none of the above" and took Rast to (in theory) avoid conflict.

But if the team were based on who would make the team stronger... I think Horner > Noval... don't you? Horner was riding pretty strong in the Giro before crashing out last year.

Perhaps you are correct, but it would have been obvious what was going on much sooner. The best teams are not merely a collection of the best individuals and Astana was quite dysfunctional last year, even though they had a great TdF. It certainly was on the brink of imploding completely. If Horner was chosen, it would not have been good. I think Bruyneel did the right thing in choosing Rast, given that he needed to placate both AC and LA. His mistake was having AC and LA on the same leadership level. But, once that decision was made, he did the right thing to alleviate the problem in that instance.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Not really surprised. I think Specialized and the ToC would love it if AC showed up, actually. It would be a boon for both of them--and me personally (could see him in person). And it would absolutely unnerve Mr. Armstrong.

I'm all for it. Perhaps we can start a draft Contador ToC campaign.

You're probably right, it would unnerve Armstrong. I don't see why though; AC wouldn't be racing, just making an appearance and logging some kilometers. Regardless, there is a part of me that wants to AC show up. Would be good for the ToC and cycling in the US.

I'll c/s that draft Contador ToC campaign.

As for the Horner talk, granted I was just skimming over the posts, but I was under the impression Horner was left off the team because the Kazakhs, for some reason, wanted a Kazakh. Was that speculation?

 

[Publicus]

You're probably right, it would unnerve Armstrong. I don't see why though; AC wouldn't be racing, just making an appearance and logging some kilometers. Regardless, there is a part of me that wants to AC show up. Would be good for the ToC and cycling in the US.

I'll c/s that draft Contador ToC campaign.

As for the Horner talk, granted I was just skimming over the posts, but I was under the impression Horner was left off the team because the Kazakhs, for some reason, wanted a Kazakh. Was that speculation?

No. I think Horner sort of tried to imply that if the Kazakh's wouldn't have insisted on one rider he would have gotten the slot--that Noval would have been the odd man out. The problem of course is that the Kazakh's ALWAYS intended to have at least one person on the squad. Horner and Noval were left off because Bruyneel (rightly) recognized if he showed any favoritism toward Armstrong or Contador the team would have divided into two or more camps. Wait, that happened anyway....

EDIT: As for why it would unnerve Armstrong . . . I think it will be premature for him (both mentally and physically). He's trying to build up to this showdown and if AC shows up early it will disrupt the carefully orchestrated plan. Plus it will put pressure on him to show and prove (compete) which may not be consistent with Levi's goal of winning a 4th ToC (which I will predict will not happen (just for giggles)). But overall, I think AC is in his head (we've discussed it on other threads).

 

[kurtinsc]

Did Astana really need another climbing domestique for the TdF? It's not like there was any stage where the assaulted the peloton in USPS-Disco train. Plus how much work was really done on AC's behalf in the mountains? I don't recall any serious attempts to mark attacks except for Kloden on Stages 16 and 17. AC marked his own attacks. Horner would have added little from sporting context and would have created major drama from an internal team context.

Just reminds me of how stupid Bruyneel was last year (and please spare me the crap that he won so how stupid could he be). He jeopardized a potential Tour victory to help an aging athlete's vain attempt to recapture old glory at the expense of the best stage racer in the world. Frankly he's lucky AC had the good sense not to trust him.

But then what was Noval's role if not climbing domestique? In what area as a rider is he superior to Horner?

I'm not trying to be contentious about it... I'm just saying that Rast at least can be argued is better on the flat then Noval or Horner. But Horner is definitely a better climber... and by his Lombardy results is probably a better "hilly" racer as well. Is Noval better at the TTT?

Noval's selection would have been a nod toward Contador, giving him a rider that he likes. It doesn't seem like it would have been a seclection that would have made much sense in any other way though... certainly not based on any kind of "on the road" performance that I can see by looking at results.

As for needing another climbing domestique... tough to tell. Contador didn't need much help, but it would have given Astana another body to help protect Contador and Armstrong prior to Contador's launching of attacks. Since Levi was out, you saw a situation where Popovych and Zubeldia would drop out on a tough climb, and you'd have Kloden, Lance and Contador. Kloden could only shield one of them... with Horner both could be shielded (assuming he could climb like he did in the Giro).

 

[kurtinsc]

No. I think Horner sort of tried to imply that if the Kazakh's wouldn't have insisted on one rider he would have gotten the slot--that Noval would have been the odd man out. The problem of course is that the Kazakh's ALWAYS intended to have at least one person on the squad. Horner and Noval were left off because Bruyneel (rightly) recognized if he showed any favoritism toward Armstrong or Contador the team would have divided into two or more camps. Wait, that happened anyway....

The way I understood it, Noval and Horner were supposed to be in, not Rast and Murayev. Bruyneel was trying to "flex his muscle" and push Astana to relent on their demand to have one Kazak rider. They didn't budge, so rather then **** Contador off by adding Horner or **** Lance off by adding Noval... he added Rast.

From what he said (take it for what it's worth), Bruyneels team would have been Contador, Lance, Levi, Kloden, Zubeldia, Popovych, Paulinho, Horner and Noval if he had his choice.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

No. I think Horner sort of tried to imply that if the Kazakh's wouldn't have insisted on one rider he would have gotten the slot--that Noval would have been the odd man out. The problem of course is that the Kazakh's ALWAYS intended to have at least one person on the squad. Horner and Noval were left off because Bruyneel (rightly) recognized if he showed any favoritism toward Armstrong or Contador the team would have divided into two or more camps. Wait, that happened anyway....

That was the reason I thought. JB trying to play it cool and neutral. Regardless of what side you were on as a fan, it was obvious JB was in Lance's corner from the get go. Choosing Horner would of only made it more obvious.

I do understand Horner's frustration though. He could have walked (or ridden) on to any TdF team he wanted.

 

[Publicus]

But then what was Noval's role if not climbing domestique? In what area as a rider is he superior to Horner?

I'm not trying to be contentious about it... I'm just saying that Rast at least can be argued is better on the flat then Noval or Horner. But Horner is definitely a better climber... and by his Lombardy results is probably a better "hilly" racer as well. Is Noval better at the TTT?

Noval's selection would have been a nod toward Contador, giving him a rider that he likes. It doesn't seem like it would have been a seclection that would have made much sense in any other way though... certainly not based on any kind of "on the road" performance that I can see by looking at results.

As for needing another climbing domestique... tough to tell. Contador didn't need much help, but it would have given Astana another body to help protect Contador and Armstrong prior to Contador's launching of attacks. Since Levi was out, you saw a situation where Popovych and Zubeldia would drop out on a tough climb, and you'd have Kloden, Lance and Contador. Kloden could only shield one of them... with Horner both could be shielded (assuming he could climb like he did in the Giro).

A couple of points (1) Noval is an engine, not a climbing domestique and rode in support of Lance Armstrong for two tours ('04 and '05), (2) so he would have been good for as long or better than Rast in the TTT (who if I recall did not finish with the main group) and (3) this was my point, there was no need to build a team around Armstrong since Bruyneel knew going in (according to him) that Contador was his strongest rider--at best Armstrong was a backup plan if Contador faltered.

Bruyneel made the right call after he built this two leadership model, but I think that was the critical mistake. Assuming Horner can get through this year injury free, he will be an asset for Levi or Armstrong at this year's TdF--last year not so much. As far as this past Tour, Bruyneel abandoned his usual tactics for his soft-pedaling, so there would have been no need to protect AC or Armstrong--AC's attacks were all counter-attacks and Armstrong never attacked.

 

[Publicus]

The way I understood it, Noval and Horner were supposed to be in, not Rast and Murayev. Bruyneel was trying to "flex his muscle" and push Astana to relent on their demand to have one Kazak rider. They didn't budge, so rather then **** Contador off by adding Horner or **** Lance off by adding Noval... he added Rast.

From what he said (take it for what it's worth), Bruyneels team would have been Contador, Lance, Levi, Kloden, Zubeldia, Popovych, Paulinho, Horner and Noval if he had his choice.

Name wise that looks powerful, but for what they needed throughout the Tour, I don't think it would have worked as well. They needed another engine/rolleur unless you are suggesting that Horner would have filled that role. If so, then he wouldn't have been there on the final climbs.

 

[Oldman]

Name wise that looks powerful, but for what they needed throughout the Tour, I don't think it would have worked as well. They needed another engine/rolleur unless you are suggesting that Horner would have filled that role. If so, then he wouldn't have been there on the final climbs.

I think Horner would have done the job for Contador, much like he had earlier in the season as AC's setup man on the hills. He's always done the team "job" whatever it was. That said, it doesn't mean AC and LA would have been happy; which led to the decision that was made. Horner did get screwed in that circumstance.

 

[Publicus]

I think Horner would have done the job for Contador, much like he had earlier in the season as AC's setup man on the hills. He's always done the team "job" whatever it was. That said, it doesn't mean AC and LA would have been happy; which led to the decision that was made. Horner did get screwed in that circumstance.

I'm not doubting his professionalism, but for whatever reason Bruyneel didn't race to setup AC in the mountains. Ever. So I'm not sure the divisiveness his presence would have created would have been beneficial. As I said earlier, the wrong decision was to put Armstrong and Contador on par with each other (from a team leadership standpoint). If he had said that it is AC's team until he falters in the mountains, etc., then including Horner and Noval isn't controversial at all. He didn't do that, so his decision to keep Noval and Horner off after the mistake was correct (IMO).

 

[kurtinsc]

Name wise that looks powerful, but for what they needed throughout the Tour, I don't think it would have worked as well. They needed another engine/rolleur unless you are suggesting that Horner would have filled that role. If so, then he wouldn't have been there on the final climbs.

I actually think Popo, Zubeldia or Paulinho would have played that role before Horner.

Horner was looking very good in the climbs at the Giro... ahead of anyone on the Astana tour team aside from Contador, Kloden, Lance and Levi. He'd be the last guy Bruyneel "spent" prior to using those four I think.

 

[Publicus]

I actually think Popo, Zubeldia or Paulinho would have played that role before Horner.

Horner was looking very good in the climbs at the Giro... ahead of anyone on the Astana tour team aside from Contador, Kloden, Lance and Levi. He'd be the last guy Bruyneel "spent" prior to using those four I think.

Neither Zubeldia or Paulhino are engines. They are climbing domestiques. Popo, well I never know what he's going to give on any given day, so he may have been the guy. Frankly, I would have taken Horner over Popo (for consistency sake) and brought Noval and Rast (though to be fair, Murayev did a very good job).

 

[Carboncrank]

Apparently you were born late July 2009 and missed Mr. Horner's expressing his disappointment, etcetera in the media. Perhaps you can utilize your newly honed google skills and dig up his statements. Or does your LiveStrong browser block those types of comments?

I expected him to be disappointed. I was too that he wasn't going. Peeved actually. He's the one that should have been chosen but this crap about what rider might favor Lance more got in the way and no matter what Bruyneel did to prove he wasn't play toward Lance, the gang here dreamed up any possible conspiracy theory anyway.
I don't remember Chris throwing anybody under the bus or saying anything unprofessional.

 

[Oldman]

Neither Zubeldia or Paulhino are engines. They are climbing domestiques. Popo, well I never know what he's going to give on any given day, so he may have been the guy. Frankly, I would have taken Horner over Popo (for consistency sake) and brought Noval and Rast (though to be fair, Murayev did a very good job).

Given free rein I think Horner could outclimb all of them except AC and Klodi. He was pretty good tactically for AC when they collaborated without the other protected riders: Levi, LA, etc.