Contador acquitted

[Skandar Akbar]

I wrote what I meant. But if you want to use transfused for your mental purposes, be my guess.

Yes I know sorry to offend. Just highlighting the 2 schools of thought here about how it got in his system. Still curious about who did the tests July 19 and 20....

 

[Hugh Januss]

if you haven't jumped yourself to add nothing to the discussion and instead of public ad hominems used pms and reports, this would not have continued. so stop you hypocritical posturing, and get back to the topic.

Uhm,

python has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

I tried that.

 

[Barrus]

People, people, why so much debate about a few jokes, lets drop it and forget about it. There is important news in this thread, focus on that

 

[131313]

I think the decreasing concentrations (with the exception of the strange rebound on the final day) is consistent with the natural decrease of clen as it is processed through the system. So ingested on one day and then it takes multiple days for it to clear the system.

please, don't let facts get in the way of a good rant

 

[Publicus]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=437357&postcount=193

Ok. So he ate meat three days during the Tour--isn't there some theory about protein being an important part of recovery. I'm still not understanding the impact here on the issue in this thread (his possible acquittal)--I'm not being obtuse, so my apologies in advance.

 

[hrotha]

please, don't let facts get in the way of a good rant

Okay, now I'm convinced you guys aren't even reading the whole thing before replying.

 

[131313]

Yes I know sorry to offend. Just highlighting the 2 schools of thought here about how it got in his system. Still curious about who did the tests July 19 and 20....

I don't know, but given the amount found and the half life of Clen, there's simply no way he wouldn't have test positive at some point just prior to or during the race.

Again, it's simply not reasonable to suggest he knowingly took the substance in question (unless you suggest he took it in training when he withdrew blood).

 

[sniper]

I don't know, but given the amount found and the half life of Clen, there's simply no way he wouldn't have test positive at some point just prior to or during the race.

Again, it's simply not reasonable to suggest he knowingly took the substance in question (unless you suggest he took it in training when he withdrew blood).

b to the i to the n to the g to the o.

 

[Publicus]

Yes I know sorry to offend. Just highlighting the 2 schools of thought here about how it got in his system. Still curious about who did the tests July 19 and 20....

Wasn't offended in the least bit. Sorry, that's just how I talk/respond some time

 

[131313]

Okay, now I'm convinced you guys aren't even reading the whole thing before replying.

Sure, I read it. The comments are nonsensical. I know guys who eat would eat steak every single day during a stage race, and yet this is posited by some as being "unbelievable"?

People will believe whatever they want to believe to suit their agenda. And please, keep in mind that I think he doped. I just think it's reasonable that he ate steak on successive days. I don't think it's reasonable that he doped with a minute amount of a substance which is easily detectable and has questionable performance-enhancing capabilities.

I have a question which is lost in all of this: how do people think it actually got in his system? When do people think he used it, and in what amounts??

 

[Hugh Januss]

I don't know, but given the amount found and the half life of Clen, there's simply no way he wouldn't have test positive at some point just prior to or during the race.

Again, it's simply not reasonable to suggest he knowingly took the substance in question (unless you suggest he took it in training when he withdrew blood).

Fact is, anyone with a brain knows how it got there. Contador can't prove it was from meat, because it was from blood. Wada can't prove that it was from taking Clen during the time he was tested because he didn't. Unless they can use the plasticizer test result to show how the clen realistically got there, then their case is somewhat weakened. However Contadors case is not that strong either, so around and around we go.

 

[patricknd]

on topic, i still wonder why we didn't see this with fuyu li ?

 

[sniper]

By far the most fruitful way of analyzing the available data on AC's positive, is by taking as point of the departure the hypothesis that AC received the CLEN via an infusion of his own stored blood. The CLEN was in there because the blood was withdrawn shortly after the Dauphiné, when AC tried to loose fat and gain some muscles.

The HUMO article was in Dutch, and guess what? that's my native tongue.
I assure each and everyone of you that you don't make that story up. The way it was written, small details like the allez, it gave me the impression we were dealing with a real interview. Nothing more nothing less.

I think the data will be alot easier to interpret if one takes this hypothesis as a point of departure.

 

[offbyone]

This whole thing is due to WADA's incompetence. Having no minimum threshold on a substance with known food contamination issues is stupid. It ensares the innocent who travel to places like Mexico, and it allows the guilty in countries without contamination problems to claim that they too are victims. The Cologne lab warned that the ever more sensitive limits of detection could causes problems. WADA did nothing. Now the anti-doping framework looks foolish and unfair.

This is the kind of attitude that has lead to this controversy in the first place. The rule is very simple. Riders are responsible for what they put in their body. Contador tested positive for a banned substance. Guilty. End of story.

Look, the rules are simple, if wada wants to be credible and fair they need to follow the rules to a letter. Exceptions, preferential treatment, etc all lead to controversy and the failing of wada's purpose.

All this represents is another detraction from the credibility of wada. Arguing otherwise just makes you a fan boy or a someone who doesn't support a firm anti-doping environment in cycling.

If you have a problem with the rules then argue to change the rule. But that has to be done first, before you acquit someone who failed the test. You can't have the chicken before the egg.

 

[roundabout]

To me the biggest problem for WADA is the biological passport. Any retesting of the samples using newer methods that yields different results than what the passport would suggests puts the whole system into doubt.

 

[Barrus]

By far the most fruitful way of analyzing the available data on AC's positive, is by taking as point of the departure the hypothesis that AC received the CLEN via an infusion of his own stored blood. The CLEN was in there because the blood was withdrawn shortly after the Dauphiné, when AC tried to loose fat and gain some muscles.

The HUMO article was in Dutch, and guess what? that's my native tongue.
I assure each and everyone of you that you don't make that story up. The way it was written, small details like the allez, it gave me the impression we were dealing with a real interview. Nothing more nothing less.

I think the data will be alot easier to interpret if one takes this hypothesis as a point of departure.

The problem that exists for WADA though is how to prove that, which apparently won't be as easy as just pointing to strict liability

 

[Skandar Akbar]

I don't know, but given the amount found and the half life of Clen, there's simply no way he wouldn't have test positive at some point just prior to or during the race.

Again, it's simply not reasonable to suggest he knowingly took the substance in question (unless you suggest he took it in training when he withdrew blood).

Yes I'm sure this must have been hypothesized before. Transfusion with blood that has little clen in it. If the transfusion happened before the rest day then that is why I am wondering which lab tested those days. If it wasn't Cologne did those days get retested after the positive to see if it present? I understood other labs can't test that low of concetration. Or maybe he just transfused the rest day with clen blood. Nobody will ever know I guess.

Regardless somebody upthread say there should be a minimum threshold. That would be a good idea I think. This whole thing is stupid.

 

[hrotha]

Sure, I read it. The comments are nonsensical. I know guys who eat would eat steak every single day during a stage race, and yet this is posited by some as being "unbelievable"?

People will believe whatever they want to believe to suit their agenda. And please, keep in mind that I think he doped. I just think it's reasonable that he ate steak on successive days. I don't think it's reasonable that he doped with a minute amount of a substance which is easily detectable and has questionable performance-enhancing capabilities.

I have a question which is lost in all of this: how do people think it actually got in his system? When do people think he used it, and in what amounts??

Contador explained he ate the meat the first day because it was a gift from López Cerrón, and he ate the meat the second day because it was so good and it would be a shame to waste it. And then, after that reasoning, he still ate random Pau meat on the third day? You don't think there's anything wrong with his story?

 

[python]

Fact is, anyone with a brain knows how it got there. Contador can't prove it was from meat, because it was from blood. Wada can't prove that it was from taking Clen during the time he was tested because he didn't. Unless they can use the plasticizer test result to show how the clen realistically got there, then their case is somewhat weakened. However Contadors case is not that strong either, so around and around we go.

this post reveals the typical poorly informed poster who either did not have the time to follow

in light of what is known so far, anyone with brain (to adopt your expression) will pose a question and show some room for new facts, instead of making a conclusion about anyone's brains presence or lack of of. i believe he doped but you show utter ignorance of the case's dynamic. yet you show a lot of opinion vs. known fact.

 

[Hugh Januss]

this post reveals the typical poorly informed poster who either did not have the time to follow or did not have the facility to follow.

in light of what is known so far, anyone with brain (to adopt your expression) will pose a question and show some room for new facts, instead of making a conclusion about anyone's brains presence or lack of of. i believe he doped but you show utter ignorance of the case's dynamic. yet you show a lot of opinion vs. known fact.

OK I don't claim to have as much dope knowledge as you. Where did I go off beam?

Edit: I'll just ignore the personal attack in the hope that you will concentrate on furthering my education.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Contador explained he ate the meat the first day because it was a gift from López Cerrón, and he ate the meat the second day because it was so good and it would be a shame to waste it. And then, after that reasoning, he still ate random Pau meat on the third day? You don't think there's anything wrong with his story?

Maybe he saw one of durianrider's videos?

 

[sniper]

The problem that exists for WADA though is how to prove that, which apparently won't be as easy as just pointing to strict liability

True.

But while analyzing the numbers of picograms and the type of beef he may or may not have eaten is not my strongest point, I do have the intuition that if we take the transfusion hypothesis as a starting point, the data on/regarding AC's positive CLEN-test can and will somehow turn out to match and corroborate this hypothesis.

Not sure if this is a scientifically justified way of arguing.
But perhaps it's like saying: hey, the earth is round and spinning, we know that much, so let's take that as a working hypothesis. Now, let's look around us, and try interpreting the things we see with that working hypothesis as a basis.
Like Newton sitting under that apple tree: things will suddenly become much clearer, if you have a decent working hypothesis.

 

[brianf7]

Please note that the final announcement has not yet been made.

Susan

All designed to sell newspapers. Keep reading.

 

[Publicus]

By far the most fruitful way of analyzing the available data on AC's positive, is by taking as point of the departure the hypothesis that AC received the CLEN via an infusion of his own stored blood. The CLEN was in there because the blood was withdrawn shortly after the Dauphiné, when AC tried to loose fat and gain some muscles.

The HUMO article was in Dutch, and guess what? that's my native tongue.
I assure each and everyone of you that you don't make that story up. The way it was written, small details like the allez, it gave me the impression we were dealing with a real interview. Nothing more nothing less.

I think the data will be alot easier to interpret if one takes this hypothesis as a point of departure.

Fair enough but the story was never corroborated. Similar to the plasticizer test as well. Until they are confirmed, they are just grist from the rumor mill and should be treated as such.

 

[python]

OK I don't claim to have as much dope knowledge as you. Where did I go off beam?

too many places to enumerate...

first, you don't want to take the tone of having brains vs having no brains if it does not agree wit your opinion (fact-less as we've learned) though a legitimate right you are free to express;

second, contador's case, if you bothered to read (or understand) some substantive posts, involves a substance that is technically illegal but can be introduced to animals up to a certain level the european union regulates.

third, you completely missed technical and political iterations around his blood passport values.

there is more, but i'm too tired to repeat things i have said numerous times alraedy.