Contador acquitted

[sniper]

So the UCI, AC and RFEC conclude that it wasn't, but WADA says that it is implausible. I guess WADA will have to appeal and teach them a thing or two about science.

I think the only way they made it look plausible, was by arguing the other three options are implausible.
The three parties you mention could teach the WADA about circular argumention.

 

[Publicus]

to give credit where it's due, that point was made earlier by Python, and is probably correct.



It's supposed to be the other way round, remember? AC needing to proof it wasn't a bloodtransfusion, I mean.

Agreed on the last point. But if he offers up his bio-passport as proof that he did not, how does WADA, short of producing a validated plasticizers test, show otherwise? And that's essentially what would have to happen upon appeal: WADA would have to demonstrate that the exclusionary analysis/evidence presented by AC in his defense was incorrect. The burden of persuasion has shifted.

 

[Publicus]

I think the only way they made it look plausible, was by arguing the other three options are implausible.
The three parties you mention could teach the WADA about circular argumention.

Right, so WADA now is the position to demonstrate one or more of the other 3 ways was plausible.

 

[sniper]

Agreed on the last point. But if he offers up his bio-passport as proof that he did not, how does WADA, short of producing a validated plasticizers test, show otherwise? And that's essentially what would have to happen upon appeal: WADA would have to demonstrate that the exclusionary analysis/evidence presented by AC in his defense was incorrect. The burden of persuasion has shifted.

Agreed.

So it's gonna be interesting to see if those-things-i'm-not-supposed-to-talk-about-no-more are gonna play a role in a possible WADA appeal to CAS.
If it's all about "showing what was most likely", rather than about really proving anything, then why not introduce the plasticizers (oops) as circumstantial evidence?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I hate to be a hater but …..there probably AINTS gonna be no Appeal.

 

[RGScales]

I agree, I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist but at this point...this is a really plausible explanation.

 

[Aguirre]

Once again Cyclingnews show its miserabilism, showing a big spanish flag alonside the headline of Alberto Contador.

Tendencious, and ruin.

 

[Cobblestones]

Wow wow wow... what happened Cobllestones? When we start insulting that is a bad sign

But I'm happy for the desicion... I want to see Alberto racing... 1 year ban wouldn't be so bad but I'm rly happy with this desicion...

Huh, I go to lunch and my post got deleted.

IMHO the deleted post wasn't at all an insult. It was a sharply worded reprimand. I did insult that dude by calling him a troll in an earlier post, but that one's still there AFAIK. :shrug:

Anyway, IMHO there's no way you can prove that the level of clen found in the test cannot come from transfusing clen-contaminated blood. If they'd found a huge amount, then maybe, because you cannot get a huge amount from one tiny bag. But the whole point is that they found a tiny amount. Also, what kind of science are they going to cite? I doubt there's a study on how clen survives in bloodbags and what to expect when you transfuse back a 'dirty' bag.

 

[Publicus]

Agreed.

So it's gonna be interesting to see if those-things-i'm-not-supposed-to-talk-about-no-more are gonna play a role in a possible WADA appeal to CAS.
If it's all about "showing what was most likely", rather than about really proving anything, then why not introduce the plasticizers (oops) as circumstantial evidence?

because without validation it's not dispositive of anything other than he drank from a plastic bottle at some point during that day--which I hear happens frequently with professional cyclist.

 

[ManInFull]

I agree, I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist but at this point...this is a really plausible explanation.

Well, I suspect that UCI and or WADA will appeal and he will get a ban. When did his ban previously start? By riding this week, he will probably miss more than this year's TdF.

 

[131313]

oopps...posted on wrong thread...

 

[sniper]

because without validation it's not dispositive of anything other than he drank from a plastic bottle at some point during that day--which I hear happens frequently with professional cyclist.

I thought the 8:1 ratio was not that common.
by the way, I mean circumstantial evidence as in "making scenario A look more plausible than scenario B".
Even if the plasticizers will not be validated as legal proof, I could imagine WADA putting them forward.
Else, what was all the plasticizer-fuzz about? Or was I really the only one fuzzing about it?

 

[GJB123]

Agreed.

So it's gonna be interesting to see if those-things-i'm-not-supposed-to-talk-about-no-more are gonna play a role in a possible WADA appeal to CAS.
If it's all about "showing what was most likely", rather than about really proving anything, then why not introduce the plasticizers (oops) as circumstantial evidence?

Perhaps because there is no positive plasticizer test in this case? What actual proof have we seen that there is?

Regards
GJ

 

[RGScales]

Has anyone calculated the amount of Clen that would need to be in a small transfusion - like 1/3 pint or 200cc - in order to show the amount of Clen Contador was found with.

Total blood volume for athlete = X
Total clen amount found in said athlete = Y

Amount of possible blood transfusion = 200cc
Amount of Clen needed in 200cc of blood to equal Y above

Is it possible that that amount would be pretty high in the blood when it was withdrawn, even a dangerous amount?

My one year old daughter is screaming at me at the moment so I cant do the math but it would likely be micrograms worth of clenbuterol in the whole body at that point...still not enough for a therapeutic effect but had he consumed the clenbuterol even 72 hours previously the body would have metabolized enough of it to be in the small amounts that we are talking about...In order to have an accurate answer to your question you would need to know Contador's exact blood values and total volume. best I can do for ya...good question though.

 

[sniper]

Perhaps because there is no positive plasticizer test in this case? What actual proof have we seen that there is?

Regards
GJ

true.
but again, then what was all the fuzz about? nine times out of ten, where there is smoke...
plus, we haven't heard anybody denying it either.

 

[Publicus]

I thought the 8:1 ratio was not that common.
by the way, I mean circumstantial evidence as in "making scenario A look more plausible than scenario B".
Even if the plasticizers will not be validated as legal proof, I could imagine WADA putting them forward.
Else, what was all the plasticizer-fuzz about? Or was I really the only one fuzzing about it?

Common for who? Me and you? Or professional cyclist? I think that's the point of validation, to determine a baseline for a cyclist, and then to try to determine the parameters that indicate someone is transfusing. Without those parameters, I'm not sure how much value it is to introducing these alleged results.

Frankly I want them to nail that down so that it will bring the practice to a halt--at least temporarily until they find some new medium in which to store the blood.

 

[RGScales]

rfec is furious

http://translate.googleusercontent....le.com&usg=ALkJrhgOWgP6dXNfCsMZaiGUQjUpUMDSSw

Wow...that did not take them long. Think maybe they were expecting this reaction?

 

[Escarabajo]

.... Also, what kind of science are they going to cite? I doubt there's a study on how clen survives in bloodbags and what to expect when you transfuse back a 'dirty' bag.

LOL. I know, that is impossible. How did they discard the blood transfusion theory would probably be the main target for WADA.

Now, it is up to Bertie to prove that id did not come from a blood tansfusion, not the other way around. So WADA does not have to use the plastisizer test if they don't want to (Since it is not an official test and more studies need to be done on it).

 

[Publicus]

LOL. I know, that is impossible. How did they discard the blood transfusion theory would probably be the main target for WADA.

Now, it is up to Bertie to prove that id did not come from a blood tansfusion, not the other way around. So WADA does not have to use the plastisizer test if they don't want to (Since it is not an official test and more studies need to be done on it).

Given that his defense was accepted by RFEC, WADA would have to show on appeal why his defense is without merit.

 

[RGScales]

Well, I suspect that UCI and or WADA will appeal and he will get a ban. When did his ban previously start? By riding this week, he will probably miss more than this year's TdF.

This point was brought up a while ago and I think it is correct. I havent had the time to try and look it up but can anyone confirm that if AC races tomorrow and then an appeal is made and he is sanctioned (again) the ban would start anew from the last race he participated in? that is grammatically awful but you understand.

 

[nowhereman]

Weren't you the guy who was busy kicking Ricco in a thread nearby?

Yes, I sure was! Inconsequential picograms of clenbuterol IS NOT bags full of stale blood. When everybody learns to start differentiating what falls under the general umbrella of "Doping" we will all be better off. Until then, it's all the Big Joke I mentioned earlier.
Let me ask you this. Going back a few years, If Vaughters had clandestinely taken some benadryl(or whatever the anti inflammatory was) to reduce the swelling around his closed eye, after a bee sting, so that he could finish his first TdF, and lets say he had been tested, and busted for that dose of BENADRYL. Would he have gone into the "Doper" Hall of Shame?? Like I said, it's a joke.
Call me a hypocrite if you need to. It's like water off a ducks back.
In fact, if I get a lot of feedback, maybe I'll change user name to Hippocrit to satisfy the name calling. I'm sorry I can't take it as bitterly as some folks here do. I'm just a spectator, there are many more important things in my life.

 

[goggalor]

What a joke.

 

[icefire]

Once again Cyclingnews show its miserabilism, showing a big spanish flag alonside the headline of Alberto Contador.

Tendencious, and ruin.

And real. Those who defend Contador are those who cannot separate the sport from the tribe. What represents the tribe better than their flag?

 

[RGScales]

true.
but again, then what was all the fuzz about? nine times out of ten, where there is smoke...
plus, we haven't heard anybody denying it either.

I agree that the plasticizer finding is interesting but the fact of the matter is that if you were tested for plasticizers right now you would test positive...the test needs to be refined to show what levels people will have once they have been hooked up to IV tubing and bags.

 

[lilyprotector]

li & clenbuterol

i don't recall seeing much in the way of protests in his favor, and when i brought it up a while back one poster said that "he didn't matter." to a certain extent that can be attributed the fact that contador is a star and li isn't, but unfortunately i don't believe that's completely the case. jingoism is alive and well here.

when the li case happened, i remember thinking that given the extent of clenbuterol poisoning issues in china, it seemed crazy that none of the authorities seemed interested in hearing li's protests about his innocence. but if you take it as a strict, you've got the dope, you serve the time and we don't care how it got there type of situation, then it needs to be applied to everyone. again, it's crazy that the guy with clen from a clen-poisoned country gets banned but contador who can't show clen in spanish beef gets off. i think the lack of support for li comes down to him not being a star, which is too bad from a fan perspective, but from the perspective of the authorities it is just a plain double-standard and serves to further deteriorate the hope that cycling will regain its cred.