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Contador as Spanish ITT champion - seriously???

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laziali said:
I mean, really, look at his skinny little climber's frame and then compare it with Big Mig...

indurain.jpg

um, and how did big mig climb with (and beat) the best and lightest climbers who were all on epo?

even big mig's itt performance jumped dramatically. in 1989 he was way behind lemond and fignon in the short versailles itt. three years later he destroyed lemond by 4 mins and fignon by 6 in luxembourg.

gee, what happened in the peloton between 1989 and 1992 i wonder...?
 
Andrichuk said:
Look at Lars Boom, in Cyclo-cross you are always attacking and sprinting hard out of corners and up short steep climbs, yet he is U23 world TT champion.

A good point, and one could reference others in Cx as well (e.g. Hanka Kupfernagel). However, the interesting thing about cross is that accelerations are intermixed with coasting. If one looks at the HR of a TT or Cx race, it tends to be similar - right at threshold or just above. However, the power readings are almost the opposite - TT tends to be steady state (varying a bit if the course is undulating or has lots of corners), Cx can have high spikes and then coasts where there is no power, almost like intervals for masochists!

Of course, not all Cx racers are great TT riders (or at least have not demonstrated that capacity). As a result, you see some racers put in more steady power efforts (Boom - goes hard from the gun and is very smooth), while others do accelerations and then back off (often Nys with attack, chill for a bit, attack, chill for a bit).

With contra and his climbing, his accelerations are not that of a Cx racer out of a corner, they are like that of someone who has some serious fast twitch fibers going on ... keep in mind I am comparing him to other light climbers, so the weight is not such an issue. So he can climb and sprint ... so the ability to sustain high steady power while doing the TT is one of the things that make me roll my eyes.

BTW - for all of those folks who keep on pointing to Annecy and noting there was a hill in the race, take a look at the results of the stage. Pretty much everyone who was up there was a TT expert, Contra smoked them all. The hill did not tilt the course that much in his favour. You know, with al this talk of Pharmstrong fanboys, I think there might need to be some about Contra fanboys (although there is much less nastiness to talk about, as he does not seem to be an a**hole :D)
 
Big Doopie said:
um, and how did big mig climb with (and beat) the best and lightest climbers who were all on epo?

even big mig's itt performance jumped dramatically. in 1989 he was way behind lemond and fignon in the short versailles itt. three years later he destroyed lemond by 4 mins and fignon by 6 in luxembourg.

gee, what happened in the peloton between 1989 and 1992 i wonder...?

Um, I doubt anyone would argue Big Mig was clean ;)
 
python said:
... your 'benchmark' for contador is bogus as i explained above.

My take on Inner Peace's point here was that the 50km TT would be his own benchmark on which to judge AC's abilities. If Contra won it, Inner Peace would be highly skeptical of his pure power output and aerodynamic drag (and power to weight would not be a significant factor). I don't think he meant it would be a benchmark for AC as a time trialer in general. Inner Peace - let me know if I am incorrect.
 
Jan 30, 2010
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Ripper said:
My take on Inner Peace's point here was that the 50km TT would be his own benchmark on which to judge AC's abilities. If Contra won it, Inner Peace would be highly skeptical of his pure power output and aerodynamic drag (and power to weight would not be a significant factor). I don't think he meant it would be a benchmark for AC as a time trialer in general. Inner Peace - let me know if I am incorrect.

Yep, that was my point. I don't see why I was attacked by Python for it, perhaps I wasn't clear enough still. I dunno...

I was saying Contador has done extremely well in time trials thus far, but for him to be considered one of the best (which he is often portrayed as) then I think the final step, or ultimate test specifically for Contador, is a long flat TT.

And yes as you said, if he starts dominating these time trials, then one can only be skeptical. Up until this point, I believe Contador's TT's have shown his quality, but nothing extraordinary. That's why my personal judgment of Contador will be based on long flat TTs to see where he can improve to become the most complete rider we've seen in a long time..
 
I dunno why anyone would think losing a minute to Leipheimer in a long Tour ITT, could establish someone's credentials as a trialing specialist, as opposed to beating J I Gutierrez.
2006 "Long" Tour ITT Results: Stage 7

1 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) T-Mobile 1.01.43.60 (50.54 km/h)
96 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 6.05.46

Stage 19

Results

1 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) T-Mobile 1.07.45 (50.48 km/h)
34 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 6.02


L Leipheimer TT palmares
2006 1st Cali prologue
2007 1st Cali prologue and ITT
1st stage 19 TDF
2008 1st Cali ITT
2nd ITT Castilla y Leon
1st Dauphine L prologue
2nd Dauphine L ITT
1st stage 5 Vuelta ITT
4th World Championship ITT
2009 2nd Cali prologue
1st Cali ITT
1st TDF TTT (with Contador)

Take out the Cali wins and there's not much left.


On the other hand....

JI Gutierrez ITT palmares.
1999 U23 World Champion
2000 National ITT Champion
2004 National ITT Champion
3rd TDF prologue
3rd GP des Nations
2005 National Champion
Runner up World ITT Championship
2007 1st TTT Tour of Med
1st TTT Tour of Catalunya
3rd prologue Tour de Suisse
National ITT Champion
2008 3rd prologue Volta Cliclista Catalunya
3rd National ITT champs
1st ENECO prologue
2009 1st TTT Tour of Med

Note that Contador also beat Ruben Plaza, who has also won GT ITTs.
 
Jun 20, 2009
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Big Doopie said:
um, and how did big mig climb with (and beat) the best and lightest climbers who were all on epo?

even big mig's itt performance jumped dramatically. in 1989 he was way behind lemond and fignon in the short versailles itt. three years later he destroyed lemond by 4 mins and fignon by 6 in luxembourg.

gee, what happened in the peloton between 1989 and 1992 i wonder...?

Welcome Big Doopie. No one is suggesting that Big Mig was clean. We are comparing doped riders with doped riders.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Is Contador just the most talented freak around ever or is he just on some extensive medical program year round? I mean he is performing really well this early in spring and he did the samething last year..just wondering.
 
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wattage said:
Is Contador just the most talented freak around ever or is he just on some extensive medical program year round? I mean he is performing really well this early in spring and he did the samething last year..just wondering.

Today he just casually wandered to the front of the pack and rode everyone off his wheel practically without any effort to speak of. He does seem to have crazy good form all year round.
 
A

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Ripper said:
Even when he is not on form, he is on form. It is just amazing :rolleyes:

I thought everyone said evidence of doping was a rider whose form fluctuated or had a single peak, a la July, to use blood bags efficiently. So how does Contador being good all year then also act as evidence of doping? That he's clearly jacked all year round? :confused:
 
Hibbles said:
I thought everyone said evidence of doping was a rider whose form fluctuated or had a single peak, a la July, to use blood bags efficiently. So how does Contador being good all year then also act as evidence of doping? That he's clearly jacked all year round? :confused:

Some form fluctuation is normal as people do try to peak for events. I generally find either extreme suspicious ... wildly fluctuating performances, as well as being 'on form' all the time.
 
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wattage said:
Is Contador just the most talented freak around ever or is he just on some extensive medical program year round? I mean he is performing really well this early in spring and he did the samething last year..just wondering.
year round. Like Valverde, and all who win, year round.
 
wattage said:
Is Contador just the most talented freak around ever or is he just on some extensive medical program year round? I mean he is performing really well this early in spring and he did the samething last year..just wondering.

well- he is both!! a very talented cyclist supported by a successful "medical program" - which is fair to say, far more cleanER than the rotten 90's up to 05. AC has always started the racing season with strong performances throughout his entire carrier, then he takes a lengthy break in may prior to the tour-so his racing schedule hasn't changed at all.
 
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hfer07 said:
well- he is both!! a very talented cyclist supported by a successful "medical program" - which is fair to say, far more cleanER than the rotten 90's up to 05. AC has always started the racing season with strong performances throughout his entire carrier, then he takes a lengthy break in may prior to the tour-so his racing schedule hasn't changed at all.

how do you know it's cleaner that the previous years? what are you basing your opinion on?
 
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i'm confused. are you suggesting that his tt win is evidenced that he dopes?

did you need more circumstantial evidence for that? he is spanish. he grew up in the spanish development programs. wasn't he on liberty seguros? he went toe to toe with rasmussen at the tour, shortly before ras was tossed for whereabouts violations. he worked for bruyneel and armstrong. all this in addition to all of the other supernatural results he has achieved should raise the eyebrows of those who are suspicious of good performances.

fact is, alberto contador, as has been noted many times on these boards, is a pretty good tt'er. he has always been good and has developed according to a natural progression over the course of his career. short time trials with hills play to his advantage. in longer, flatter tts he will lose time to the cancellaras and leipheimers out there, but not as much as others.

imho, i think his win says more about the current state of spanish tt competition than anything else.
 
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but how about stage 13, first chrono, in 2007 Tour. Remember Levi won the final chrono, look how far down Levi was. Levi had obviously slammed a few bags of packed cells and had a hit of PFCs to win the final chrono.

Good chrono by Wigans tho.

54 kms.

1 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Astana 1.06.34 (48.661 km/h)
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Predictor - Lotto 1.14
3 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 1.39
4 Andrey Kashechkin (Kaz) Astana 1.44
5 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 2.14
6 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 2.16
7 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 2.18
8 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 2.38
9 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 2.39
 
blackcat said:
but how about stage 13, first chrono, in 2007 Tour. Remember Levi won the final chrono, look how far down Levi was. Levi had obviously slammed a few bags of packed cells and had a hit of PFCs to win the final chrono.

Good chrono by Wigans tho.

54 kms.

1 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Astana 1.06.34 (48.661 km/h)
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Predictor - Lotto 1.14
3 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 1.39
4 Andrey Kashechkin (Kaz) Astana 1.44
5 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 2.14
6 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 2.16
7 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 2.18
8 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 2.38
9 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 2.39

Levi looked average in the Alps too, but was very strong in the Pyrenees, not losing much time to Chicken/AC.