Contador Isolates Self

[fulcrum]

Armstrong has manufactured his own podium placement while improving Contador's position. Bruyneel is now the envy of every team manager.

The only thing I've seen Armstrong do is hang for his dear life. He is in no shape to manufacture anything, let alone improve other rider's positions.

 

[Coach Hawk]

Lance is a nuisance in Astana. Not an investment. They don't even pay him.

Not sure if there's better semantics for it, but Astana is the sponsor, not the team. And it is the longevity of the team--riders, mechanics, masseurs, chefs, etc.--that JB has accomplished.

So if you make your choice based on "fundamental economics" you end up in a situation like the one we are witnessing.

You mean the one with AC in yellow, LA and AK threatening to podium and a new sponsor ready to step in and get a new team going? Sounds good to me.

You cannot play with people's lifelihoods just because you saw greener pastures a year ahead. There is such a thing as commitment, and if you have created a team with Contador as leader and a goal, winning the TdF, you cannot start wavering and trying to fit Lance into that picture and push Contador out. It's a question of integrity. The fact that Lance is in Astana has created no jobs. The fact that Lance will be coming back with his own team next year will create jobs. And that is exactly what he should have done from the beginning, without creating the current mess at Astana.

Integrity--oh, you mean like paying your riders? That kind of integrity? Like telling JB he's gone if he doesn't take Vino back even though his contract says otherwise integrity? Pretty sure AC does not have a contract that says "you will be the sole protected rider for le tour." IF JB said that, then you have a point, but I find it unlikely.

And in the light of all the "integrity " from the Astana sponsor, I think JB shows a lot of sense in opening up other doors.

 

[frizzlefry]

Only time will tell, but my guess is that a Contador 2010 with a good team around him will be much better than a Contador 2009 with the fox in the hen house.

I cant wait till 2010 and Vino comes back to Astana, bends AC over and sticks it to him proper, and you guys will blame LA and JB. That is going to be classic.

 

[scribe]

The only thing I've seen Armstrong do is hang for his dear life. He is in no shape to manufacture anything, let alone improve other rider's positions.

That's right. Podium placement is rather disappointing.

 

[scribe]

How did Armstrong improve Contador's position?

That TTT was all Lance baby! Contador rivals only Cadel Evans in inspiring his team.

 

[Coach Hawk]

The only thing I've seen Armstrong do is hang for his dear life. He is in no shape to manufacture anything, let alone improve other rider's positions.

Yup, sure was hanging on to Wiggo for dear life today. Oh, wait. He dropped him...

You must have meant yesterday when he was holding on to VDV and Wiggo for dear life until they towed him back to the leaders...nope, I guess that was the other way around too.

Which hanging on for dear life did you mean?

 

[fulcrum]

That's right. Podium placement is rather disappointing.

Check the GC, for right now, he's not on the podium. He better start showing something if he wants to end there, because the Schlecks won't be shy in Mont Ventoux.

 

[jilbiker]

I'm sure that's been the case throughout the Tour. He doesn't trust LA or JB at this point and frankly they've given him every reason not to do so. You reap what you sow.

Yes, I wonder if JB was think about LA? Don't attack so LA will catch up. I am very sure if it was LA in a similar position and he said to JB, "Can I attack?" JB will reply "Got any gas?" LA says "I feel good", JB will say "Fire away"

 

[fulcrum]

Pretty sure AC does not have a contract that says "you will be the sole protected rider for le tour." IF JB said that, then you have a point, but I find it unlikely.

Well, you might find it unlikely, but JB said that Contador would be THE team leader. On the record, publicly, repeatedly before the Tour began. So we both agree I have a point.

And you seem to imply that because Astana as sponsor is lacking in the integrity department, it is ok for JB to turn around and screw Contador in exchange, which I find odd.

 

[scribe]

No one in their right mind would attack the Shreks in that situation. Dogs along the roadside knew what was come of that move by Contador.

 

[Publicus]

That TTT was all Lance baby! Contador rivals only Cadel Evans in inspiring his team.

LOL. So everyone else was doing a TTT, but Astana just let Lance go full bore by himself? Don't tell the other 8 guys that.


Lance was taking monster pulls because he wanted the MJ. I can only imagine how things would have turned out if he had gotten it.

 

[nslckevin]

How did Armstrong improve Contador's position?

By not working with Wiggins once they separated? Surely that is obvious to anybody who's raced a bike! LA attacked and when Wiggins got on LA shut down and made Wiggins work. They went so slow that VdV got back on. Only when LA got away from Wiggins clean did he ride hard.

Wiggins was/is potentially Contadors biggest threat in tomorrow's TT. Now that Contador is 5 minutes ahead of Wiggins he has much more breathing space.

LA was also trading off with AC in following the Schleck's attacks before the gap opened. That is less work that AC had to do before the split.

I would defy anybody to find any fault with Armstrong's team tactics in this tour with repect to Contador. The only questionable bit would be riding on the front with the Columbia guys when the field split in the wind on stage 4 or 5. That one I can see both ways and truthfully I'm not sure which is right.

Even if AC is the undisputed team leader at that point, the only person who was remotely a threat in that group was Michael Rogers and even without hindsight that is a stretch. On the other hand it DID force the real GC threats to chase as you can't ignore someone like LA up the road.

I think that if Contador was in yellow at that time it surely would have been wrong for LA to work. As it was though... the prologue isn't enough to decide outright who the team leader is. Otherwise Cancellara would be the Saxo team leader. All ASSUMING that "the road will decide" was the team policy. i.e. AC, LA and maybe even LL and AK are co-leaders until one of them rises to the top.

Kevin

 

[fulcrum]

You mean the one with AC in yellow, LA and AK threatening to podium and a new sponsor ready to step in and get a new team going? Sounds good to me.

Nope, I meant with the JB/AC (a Tour contender for the next 8 years)relationship permanently damaged, a divided team, getting kicked out by the sponsor and making ill timed press announcements about his future. Not to mentioned coming across as Lance's little puppet without any leadership quality.

Now, he will get paid for all these shortcoming in the next 2 years, but after Lance retires permanently, then what?

 

[nslckevin]

Yes, I wonder if JB was think about LA? Don't attack so LA will catch up. I am very sure if it was LA in a similar position and he said to JB, "Can I attack?" JB will reply "Got any gas?" LA says "I feel good", JB will say "Fire away"

Acutally, if you read Bruyneel's book you'd find that in '99 on Alpe d'Huez JB ordered LA NOT to attack even though LA felt great and he really wanted to. JB didn't feel that it was tactically prudent at the time. Of course, many things were different. Many more stages left, much weaker team, etc. But none the less, JB said NO and LA did NOT attack.

Kevin

 

[Publicus]

If Lance hadn't screwed up and given Frank the opportunity to get away from him and Wiggins, Lance would be in a much stronger position and Andy Schleck possibly wouldn't have gained as much time without his brother (Frank was sharing the pace making with him).

 

[fulcrum]

By not working with Wiggins once they separated? Surely that is obvious to anybody who's raced a bike!

That is something Lance DIDN'T DO. We are interested in hearing what he DID DO to improve Contador's position.

 

[Publicus]

By not working with Wiggins once they separated? Surely that is obvious to anybody who's raced a bike! LA attacked and when Wiggins got on LA shut down and made Wiggins work. They went so slow that VdV got back on. Only when LA got away from Wiggins clean did he ride hard.

Wiggins was/is potentially Contadors biggest threat in tomorrow's TT. Now that Contador is 5 minutes ahead of Wiggins he has much more breathing space.

LA was also trading off with AC in following the Schleck's attacks before the gap opened. That is less work that AC had to do before the split.

I would defy anybody to find any fault with Armstrong's team tactics in this tour with repect to Contador. The only questionable bit would be riding on the front with the Columbia guys when the field split in the wind on stage 4 or 5. That one I can see both ways and truthfully I'm not sure which is right.

Even if AC is the undisputed team leader at that point, the only person who was remotely a threat in that group was Michael Rogers and even without hindsight that is a stretch. On the other hand it DID force the real GC threats to chase as you can't ignore someone like LA up the road.

I think that if Contador was in yellow at that time it surely would have been wrong for LA to work. As it was though... the prologue isn't enough to decide outright who the team leader is. Otherwise Cancellara would be the Saxo team leader. All ASSUMING that "the road will decide" was the team policy. i.e. AC, LA and maybe even LL and AK are co-leaders until one of them rises to the top.

Kevin

Is that right? I recall that Wiggins, Frank Schleck and Armstrong were dropped by Andy Schleck's acceleration which only Contador and Kloden could follow. Frank only recovered as a result of Lance almost running into Wiggins looking around. Which means but for Lance's boneheaded move, Frank is stuck back with him and Wiggins, and Lance is probably in 3rd tonight or maybe higher (since Andy probably would have collapsed without Frank sharing the load with him).

How about them apples?

 

[scribe]

That is something Lance DIDN'T DO. We are interested in hearing what he DID DO to improve Contador's position.

I can name another thing Contador SHOULDNT HAVE DONE today that would have improved Kloden's position.

 

[Publicus]

I can name another thing Contador SHOULDNT HAVE DONE today that would have improved Kloden's position.

You still haven't demonstrated how Lance improved Contador's position.

 

[scribe]

Is that right? I recall that Wiggins, Frank Schleck and Armstrong were dropped by Andy Schleck's acceleration which only Contador and Kloden could follow. Frank only recovered as a result of Lance almost running into Wiggins looking around. Which means but for Lance's boneheaded move, Frank is stuck back with him and Wiggins, and Lance is probably in 3rd tonight or maybe higher (since Andy probably would have collapsed without Frank sharing the load with him).

How about them apples?

Frank Shrek dumped them like yesterday's trash and was planned the whole way. Shreks ride up the hills like that and it always amazes me that the other riders are consistently flat-footed when Frank is floating back through the field. You can bet Armstrong had nothing to do with Shrek's recovery. He intended to leave Armstrong and Wiggens right were they were all along.

 

[fulcrum]

I can name another thing Contador SHOULDNT HAVE DONE today that would have improved Kloden's position.

Right, except that Kloden is a domestique, like Lance, and Contador is the team leader. See? it is not a two way road, Kloden and Lance must work for Contador, not the other way around. Welcome to cycling 101.

 

[Publicus]

Frank Shrek dumped them like yesterday's trash and was planned the whole way. Shreks ride up the hills like that and it always amazes me that the other riders are consistently flat-footed when Frank is floating back through the field. You can bet Armstrong had nothing to do with Shrek's recovery. He intended to leave Armstrong and Wiggens right were they were all along.

Just respond to the nonsense that Armstrong stayed with Wiggins because he was sacrificing for Contador. But Frank only escaped because of Lance's inattentiveness, which one could argue (as I have) contributed to Lance's losses today (and increased wear on Kloden).

 

[indurain666]

According to AC, he talked to Klodi before attacking and he told him to go for it (saw them talking on TV), does anyone know what Klodi said post-race?

 

[scribe]

You still haven't demonstrated how Lance improved Contador's position.

Go through the TTT results and look at the time gains vs all the other GC contendors..........

 

[scribe]

Just respond to the nonsense that Armstrong stayed with Wiggins because he was sacrificing for Contador. But Frank only escaped because of Lance's inattentiveness, which one could argue (as I have) contributed to Lance's losses today (and increased wear on Kloden).

You don't understand the Shreks. End of story.