Contador Isolates Self

[fulcrum]

Okay, trick question: Which is better.

1. Rider X wins the Tour.
2. Rider X wins the Tour and his team mates place 2nd and 3rd???

Kevin

Clearly 1 is better. And I will tell you why... because option 2 means that teammates that finished 2nd and 3rd were not really focused on helping team leader win the tour, and that jeopardizes the main goal: win the tour.

And that is specially true when teammates placing 2nd and 3rd are just 2 minutes behind in the GC with serious stages as ITT and Mont Ventoux ahead. I haven't seen AK or LA put all the meat on the fire for Contador this tour. They seem to be more focused on riding defensively than making the race explode in such a way that benefits Contador.

 

[richwagmn]

Saxo is an awesome team. Clearly, Contador would never fit in there either.

Really? Riis says he would have made Contador the leader of the team at the start of the race which would have eliminated a whole host of problems.

Oh btw, here's what LA had to say about trying to go with Schleck.

http://www.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idUSTRE56L5JO20090722

 

[richwagmn]

Clearly 1 is better. And I will tell you why... because option 2 means that teammates that finished 2nd and 3rd were not really focused on helping team leader win the tour, and that jeopardizes the main goal: win the tour.

And that is specially true when teammates placing 2nd and 3rd are just 2 minutes behind in the GC with serious stages as ITT and Mont Ventoux ahead. I haven't seen AK or LA put all the meat on the fire for Contador this tour. They seem to be more focused on riding defensively than making the race explode in such a way that benefits Contador.

Bingo! You are a winnah.

This whole stupid co-leadership thing could have been avoided if JB had just made AC the outright team leader.

 

[colwildcat]

Clearly 1 is better. And I will tell you why... because option 2 means that teammates that finished 2nd and 3rd were not really focused on helping team leader win the tour, and that jeopardizes the main goal: win the tour.

And that is specially true when teammates placing 2nd and 3rd are just 2 minutes behind in the GC with serious stages as ITT and Mont Ventoux ahead. I haven't seen AK or LA put all the meat on the fire for Contador this tour. They seem to be more focused on riding defensively than making the race explode in such a way that benefits Contador.

Except, in the context of what happened today, AC did nothing to further his goal of 1 - winning the tour. Did he put any time into the Schlecks? Nope. All he did was launch his teammates further down, teammates that could have helped him. This was always Contador's tour to win, today did nothing to further that goal, it only proved to further show that he is more interested in proving how great he is as an individual and hosing his teammates. This has nothing to do with LA, or AK, it has to do with Contador. Being brash gets you so far, one of these days, he'll need help, and we'll see in the long run if others are willing to sacrifice for him, when he's clearly not interested in looking out for anyone but himself.

 

[scribe]

Really? Riis says he would have made Contador the leader of the team at the start of the race which would have eliminated a whole host of problems.

Oh btw, here's what LA had to say about trying to go with Schleck.

http://www.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idUSTRE56L5JO20090722

Yes, really. Like when you couldn't tell if one of the Shreks or Sastre was gonna emerge from the team as a leader last year......

Riis is a tactical genius. Contador would absolutely keep the guy awake in turmoil every night, under his direction.

 

[richwagmn]

This sport is about TEAMS. Why you conclude I'm a Lance lover shows your own bias. I would feel the same if it were Saxo acting this way.

Contador's the strongest rider in the tour. We wouldn't even be discussing his move if he didn't have to put up with the situation created by LA's return and his assuming he's also a co-leader for the TDF.

Why should Contador worry about the finishing spots of other team members? Did LA ever worry about that? The team should be racing exclusively for him and sacrificing their own interests.

 

[richwagmn]

Yes, really. Like when you couldn't tell if one of the Shreks or Sastre was gonna emerge from the team as a leader last year......

Riis is a tactical genius. Contador would absolutely keep the guy awake in turmoil every night, under his direction.

At least Riis knows how good Contador is and how LA is no challenge to him.

Except...

Apparently, JB knew it too.

http://www.bicycle.net/2009/armstrong-and-contador-incompatible-so-says-bruyneel

So if JB thought this, his allowing this co-leadership BS to continue is hard to understand. Not sure why he's massaging LA's ego.

 

[fulcrum]

So if JB thought this, his allowing this co-leadership BS to continue is hard to understand. Not sure why he's massaging LA's ego.

Money my friend. Greed and money.

 

[scribe]

You guys are awfully thick. Both in mass and dense-ness. When you have 3 of the top 5 riders of the tour, you have to leave your options on the table until the road shakes it out. Bruyneel has handled this situation as well as anyone could.

 

[colwildcat]

Contador's the strongest rider in the tour. We wouldn't even be discussing his move if he didn't have to put up with the situation created by LA's return and his assuming he's also a co-leader for the TDF.

Why should Contador worry about the finishing spots of other team members? Did LA ever worry about that? The team should be racing exclusively for him and sacrificing their own interests.

They clearly have been for the last week, but still sat in sight of the podium. Their own teammate skewered their chances, while gaining absolutely nothing over competition on other teams, other than Wiggins, who they clearly had broken. Co-leaders or not, the fact is that all 3 were in the top 5. The fact is Contador made a huge mistake today.

Let's see how magnanimous he is when he wins. Will AC share the prize money with his teammates as LA always did? Personally, I doubt it.

 

[Max Cadence]

Contador's the strongest rider in the tour. We wouldn't even be discussing his move if he didn't have to put up with the situation created by LA's return and his assuming he's also a co-leader for the TDF.

Why should Contador worry about the finishing spots of other team members? Did LA ever worry about that? The team should be racing exclusively for him and sacrificing their own interests.

They are sacrificing their own interests for Contador. It is just that AC is sacrificing team interests also and for no good reason. Contador is not benefiting from pushing his team off the podium - at all - in any way. Do you get it yet?

 

[lechia]

The way Kloden lost time after Contador attacked suggests that he was on his last legs at the point his teammate attacked. This means it was only a matter of time before the Schlecks dropped him even without attacking. Kloden wasn't able to stay on the wheel (on a flat, fast section) with Nibali and/or Armstrong. Obviously he was fried and all this talk about Contador attacking his teammate is pointless. If Kloden had the legs he would have caught up. They were less than 50 m away when Contador slowed down.

 

[Bagster]

the ttt only meant he's in yellow a few days earlier than he would have in another team.

the rest he did alone. little help from paulinho, none from the rest until verbier. hell, they even worked against him on stage 2.

I was resisting responding but your stupidity is unbelievable. He doesn't need a team?? Who do you think has been controlling the race for him the past three weeks? Perhaps you have missed the hours that Popo and Rast have spent on the front sheltering him, LA and Klodi day after day? Perhaps you lack the understanding of the benefit of having another team member with you in the mountains, if only to discourage attacks from other teams that have more numbers. It is not about just being the strongest climber, its about being delivered into the mountains fresh from the work your domestiques have done for you on the lead up and Astana have done a great job of that all week and that includes LA in the last few stages.

If you knew anything at all you would be agreeing that the attack Conti did today was a total brain explosion, which is why he spent the next 2km looking back to Klodi, probably thinking "that wasn't a great move in hindsight". The fact that he is the worlds best climber doesn't exempt him from doing stupid things that could have had potentially bad results for him. Today he got away with it.

 

[richwagmn]

Money my friend. Greed and money.

So where does Contador end up?

Sounds like Garmin had him signed in the case that Astana fell apart.

Saxo is obviously going with the Schlecks.

Not sure if Columbia is after a GT rider or if they can support Cav and a GT rider.

 

[Bagster]

The way Kloden lost time after Contador attacked suggests that he was on his last legs at the point his teammate attacked. This means it was only a matter of time before the Schlecks dropped him even without attacking. Kloden wasn't able to stay on the wheel (on a flat, fast section) with Nibali and/or Armstrong. Obviously he was fried and all this talk about Contador attacking his teammate is pointless. If Kloden had the legs he would have caught up. They were less than 50 m away when Contador slowed down.

The point is that if it had of been the Schlecks that attacked and cracked him it would have been fair enough. The pointless aspect of this which seems to have escaped you was Contador attacking when he had no reason to do so and by doing so dropping his supporting teammate. The Schlecks were not to know how close Klodi was to cracking and they were content to ride tempo. The fact that Klodi was there discouraged them from double teaming Contador had they been able to. How klodi was at the finish is irreleveant to the discussion

 

[nslckevin]

Given that AC won't be riding with LA next year, why should he care? JB/LA have burned that bridge long ago. Too bad JB won't have a tour contender next year.

Please answer my question:

Which is better?

1. Rider X wins the Tour.
2. Rider X wins the Tour and his team mates place 2nd and 3rd???

And I'll even give you a bonus answer to your question.

"Why should he care?" Because he helped Saxo Bank move up in GC at the expense of his team mates at no gain to himself.

Contador is a great rider. I do not think he is a bad person. I think he made a mistake and I think he realized it pretty much immediately and acted accordingly. You, on the other hand can't even see what Contador saw himself.

Kevin

 

[Max Cadence]

The way Kloden lost time after Contador attacked suggests that he was on his last legs at the point his teammate attacked. This means it was only a matter of time before the Schlecks dropped him even without attacking. Kloden wasn't able to stay on the wheel (on a flat, fast section) with Nibali and/or Armstrong. Obviously he was fried and all this talk about Contador attacking his teammate is pointless. If Kloden had the legs he would have caught up. They were less than 50 m away when Contador slowed down.

These are points to be considered for sure although speculative in nature, which is fine, that's what we're all doing here. The main consideration is that Contador delivered his opponents to the GC podium unnecessarily. From a speculative viewpoint, it could have turned out different. It didn't. So maybe we should move on.

 

[Bagster]

They are sacrificing their own interests for Contador. It is just that AC is sacrificing team interests also and for no good reason. Contador is not benefiting from pushing his team off the podium - at all - in any way. Do you get it yet?

NO, he probably doesn't. He probably doesn't notice the other five guys in the team that are on the front all day every day sacrificing themselves for AC and LA. Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was AC and LA on the front mile after mile controlling the race....looked more like Rast and Popo to me. But it could have been AC himself with shoulderpads doing it all by himself!

 

[richwagmn]

These are points to be considered for sure although speculative in nature, which is fine, that's what we're all doing here. The main consideration is that Contador delivered his opponents to the GC podium unnecessarily. From a speculative viewpoint, it could have turned out different. It didn't. So maybe we should move on.

That's gonna be news to the Schlecks that Contador put them on the podium. Must have been his crazy fast pulls.

He attacked and thought Kloden would go with. As soon as he saw that didn't happen, he was almost track standing (misinterpreted as the Schlecks covering his attack).

He apologized after the stage and said that wasn't his intent.

Did he have to attack? No. But, according to him, he asked Kloden before he went.

We know Contador seems to ride nervously at times, probably needlessly so.

 

[tockit]

The best thing Contador could have achieved was maybe 20-30 secs which he would surely have lost on the descent....bloody stupid I say again.

I've never viewed Contador as a tactical genius but I thought he would at least be better than average.

I agree. I watched that climb today about 3 times.

I think AC had the legs to drop both the Schleck's, but like you said, the by the time Contador waited to make his move, he was so close to the top of the climb that he whatever time he gained would have most likely been made up on the descent down the Colombière.

Contador launched a very agressive acceleration that neither Schleck could follow, then sat up. The only thing he accomplished was dropping Kloden, who worked his **** off for Contador today.

Kloden may have been cooked, but if AC had continued to let the Schleck's pull, at least Kloden would have probably still hung in there in case Contador had a flat or a mechanical.

So at the end of the day, all AC accomplished was to send Kloden from a possible podium finish to 5th place.

Dumb move Contador.

 

[Max Cadence]

He attacked and thought Kloden would go with.

Wow, now you know their thoughts too. I'll just shut up then.

 

[tockit]

He attacked and thought Kloden would go with. As soon as he saw that didn't happen, he was almost track standing (misinterpreted as the Schlecks covering his attack).

He apologized after the stage and said that wasn't his intent.

We know Contador seems to ride nervously at times, probably needlessly so.

Exactly, if you're gonna attack, attack. Don't pussy foot around and jump, then sit up at look back the rest of the climb.

Stupid.

 

[richwagmn]

The only thing he accomplished was dropping Kloden, who worked his **** off for Contador today.

I must have missed the part where AC was riding Kloden's wheel. At what point in the stage was Kloden pulling AC anywhere? AC was glued to the Schlecks wheels. Kloden was hanging on for dear life to AC's wheel.

 

[richwagmn]

Wow, now you know their thoughts too. I'll just shut up then.

Huh? Did you read what he said after the stage?

http://www.astana-cyclingteam.com/special_features/acst17.html

Read up, then reply.

 

[colwildcat]

I must have missed the part where AC was riding Kloden's wheel. At what point in the stage was Kloden pulling AC anywhere? AC was glued to the Schlecks wheels. Kloden was hanging on for dear life to AC's wheel.

So, apparently you see no benefit to being 2 on 2 in a break vs outnumbered, from a tactical perspective? Kloden busted his hump to stay with Contador to help protect him, it's not always about who pulls who. Contador has proven he doesn't need anyone to pull him anywhere. He has proven that he isn't smart enough, or is spiteful enough, to ruin other people's tours for no reason whatsoever.