Contador Junior Team

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gatete said:
Is the idea completely wrong? I ask myself.

Is there anything good coming out of this?

Investing in cycling is bad? My goodness what times we're living.

Yes they are tough times and again I guess the popular sentiment at the moment is:

We shouldn't support any investing in kids right now because the whole sport is dirty and absolutely will not get any benefits because these kids will become dopers.

Well maybe something even one of those kids will be a good investment for the sport or to the very least will have the opportunity to just ride his bike and see how disgusting the doping practices are and walk away but will live that experience, how many kids just have nothing to look for and without support end up having a meaningless life as a result.
+1 exactly
 
Mar 26, 2009
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airstream said:
The thread will be closed with establishing of the fund for buying a brain for one of the posters... :D
That would require a lot of money, actually, what with the postage all the way to Minsk and everything.:p
 
Mar 26, 2009
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Cloxxki said:
Would you let your child accept candy from a convicted child molester? There's nothing wrong with the candy, I assure you!

Parents of those juniors need to be invited by national child protection services to speak about their responsibility to keep kids out of harm at least until a certain age.
Not sure if improved cycling performance from a minute amount of clenbuterol that actually MAY have come from a steak is quite the same as raping children.

More reasonably, would you let your teenagers take driving lessons from someone who may have broken some traffic laws 20 years ago? I would. In fact, I DID take lessons from someone who used to habitually drag race on public streets, and I did it because he was the best driver I knew. Did he teach me to break the law? Nope, he taught me the opposite, and I listened because I knew he had experienced both the good and the bad.

Who better to learn how to avoid going to the "dark side" of cycling than someone who has lived it?
 
Mar 17, 2009
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silverrocket said:
Not sure if improved cycling performance from a minute amount of clenbuterol that actually MAY have come from a steak is quite the same as raping children.

More reasonably, would you let your teenagers take driving lessons from someone who may have broken some traffic laws 20 years ago? I would. In fact, I DID take lessons from someone who used to habitually drag race on public streets, and I did it because he was the best driver I knew. Did he teach me to break the law? Nope, he taught me the opposite, and I listened because I knew he had experienced both the good and the bad.

Who better to learn how to avoid going to the "dark side" of cycling than someone who has lived it?
An then to the this mixture the absolute need Alberto has of putting himself in more trouble by starting a team that will dope kids specially now with all the LA drama where everything is coming out. I think if we were to think cynically about Alberto's intentions for this team is to maybe he saw an opportunity to "cleanse" a little about his doping past and it would look like a nice gesture specially with kids involved. The notion that they will utilize organized doping in it seems too far fetched for my liking.
 
gatete said:
An then to the this mixture the absolute need Alberto has of putting himself in more trouble by starting a team that will dope kids specially now with all the LA drama where everything is coming out. I think if we were to think cynically about Alberto's intentions for this team is to maybe he saw an opportunity to "cleanse" a little about his doping past and it would look like a nice gesture specially with kids involved. The notion that they will utilize organized doping in it seems too far fetched for my liking.
Cancer shield, meet kids shield. Done so much good. J.O. Koss has a kids shield, works much more uniform. And he's a doctor, even. Didn't choose to adopt an illness for which his dope was the cure. Sorry, bit off-topic there.

Anyway, keep Contador away from yet uncompromised riders, of any age. It's not about the clen.
 
silverrocket said:
Not sure if improved cycling performance from a minute amount of clenbuterol that actually MAY have come from a steak is quite the same as raping children.

More reasonably, would you let your teenagers take driving lessons from someone who may have broken some traffic laws 20 years ago? I would. In fact, I DID take lessons from someone who used to habitually drag race on public streets, and I did it because he was the best driver I knew. Did he teach me to break the law? Nope, he taught me the opposite, and I listened because I knew he had experienced both the good and the bad.

Who better to learn how to avoid going to the "dark side" of cycling than someone who has lived it?
gatete said:
An then to the this mixture the absolute need Alberto has of putting himself in more trouble by starting a team that will dope kids specially now with all the LA drama where everything is coming out. I think if we were to think cynically about Alberto's intentions for this team is to maybe he saw an opportunity to "cleanse" a little about his doping past and it would look like a nice gesture specially with kids involved. The notion that they will utilize organized doping in it seems too far fetched for my liking.
+1 to both

silverrocket said:
That would require a lot of money, actually, what with the postage all the way to Minsk and everything.:p
Oooh mean :D :D
 
Mrs John Murphy said:
So you are in favour of 17-18 year olds being groomed? Right...
No I believe there is nothing wrong with 17-18 year olds getting a chance to ride in a junior team created by the best stage racer of this generation and arguably a bit of a hero for lots of young (Spanish) cyclists.
 
May 3, 2010
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silverrocket said:
Not sure if improved cycling performance from a minute amount of clenbuterol that actually MAY have come from a steak is quite the same as raping children.

More reasonably, would you let your teenagers take driving lessons from someone who may have broken some traffic laws 20 years ago? I would. In fact, I DID take lessons from someone who used to habitually drag race on public streets, and I did it because he was the best driver I knew. Did he teach me to break the law? Nope, he taught me the opposite, and I listened because I knew he had experienced both the good and the bad.

Who better to learn how to avoid going to the "dark side" of cycling than someone who has lived it?
This assumes that he has abandoned the dark-side. And there is slightly more than 'clen from a steak', you know the Puerto problems, the CERA Giro issue, the 2007 TDF, the hanging out with Saiz, Hog and Riis, the Pepe Marti issue, the plasticizers, the TUES and of course the head issue.

Would you let your children hang out with an ex-rapist or drug dealer who may or may not have given up raping people or dealing drugs?
 
Oct 28, 2012
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The clinic hits a new low... I hope the regular contributors who are reading this realise what an insult it is to their efforts.

As if post #17 wasn't offensive enough to victims, it is also flawed, and you choose knowingly to propagate that offence to the point of stupidity.

Mrs John Murphy said:
Would you let your children hang out with an ex-rapist or drug dealer who may or may not have given up raping people or dealing drugs?
If you want to persist with this offensive analogy then let me point a few things out to you.

By your terms doping is rape.
ergo Alberto raped himself.
so he will rape himself in front of the riders?
or are you suggesting he was raped?
so rape victims should be segregated from society?
and now you are saying he is akin to an enabler of doping to fit your flawed analogy creep?
Yet he was judged to have involuntarily taken a contaminated supplement,
so he involuntarily raped himself without knowing it until told about it...

How about you put just an ounce of thought into your posts before discrediting and insulting every poster on the forum with poorly thought out, defamatory, and offensive rhetoric, and sounding like a complete fool in the process?

Post #17 displays the intellectual tact and capacity of a lentil brained troll.
 
May 3, 2010
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Your argument falls down because you see Contador as the victim rather than the perpetrator.

You must be the first person who sees a doper as akin to a rape victim. Which if we are talking about offensive analogies, then you are really pushing the boat out there.

Yes, Poor Dertie is the victim here, he was just minding his own business when Pepe Marti came up and started injecting him with EPO, next thing he knew, Hog came up and started removing his blood and then re-injecting him with it.

And you think that post 17 was offensive...

The analogy to a rapist/child-molester/heroin dealer/mass murderer, not because there is equivalence between the two activities but because the bottomline is this would you let your children take part in an activity sponsored by someone who has engaged in illegal activities for the whole of their life and shows no evidence of having reformed.

Would you let your children take part in a team run by Armstrong? Hog? Ferrari? Saiz? Michael Jackson? The answer to all of these is no because they, like Contador are unsuitable people to be involved with youth/junior cycling because of their pasts.
 
Oct 28, 2012
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Your argument falls down because you see Contador as the victim rather than the perpetrator.

You must be the first person who sees a doper as akin to a rape victim. Which if we are talking about offensive analogies, then you are really pushing the boat out there.

Yes, Poor Dertie is the victim here, he was just minding his own business when Pepe Marti came up and started injecting him with EPO, next thing he knew, Hog came up and started removing his blood and then re-injecting him with it.

And you think that post 17 was offensive...

The bottomline is this would you let your children take part in an activity sponsored by someone who has engaged in illegal activities for the whole of their life and shows no evidence of having reformed.

Would you let your children take part in a team run by Armstrong? Hog? Ferrari? Saiz? Michael Jackson? The answer to all of these is no because they, like Contador are unsuitable people to be involved with youth/junior cycling because of their pasts.
BS. My argument expresses no opinion regarding the rider. Instead I address your offensive and flawed sexual abuse analogy, with which you both sought to escalate your unsubstantiated opinion and moral judgement upon a rider with the use of child abuse imagery.

The bottomline is that you have little more regard for either the sentiment of abused children, parents or riders, than the worst thugs in the peloton.

Not bad for a keyboard warrior with pretending to have a moral compass.
 
May 3, 2010
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No you didn't. You chose to present Contador as akin to a victim than as a perpetrator.

You've not done bad for a keyboard warrior pretending to have a moral compass.

It does amuse me when like the Armstrong fans of old use to claim to speak for all cancer victims, you are somehow able to speak for all rape and abuse victims, and are somehow able to determine what is or is not offensive for them. All the while missing the point of the analogy. But thanks for telling people what to think.

Spare me your faux outrage. This isn't anything to do with the analogy. It is the fact that you don't like the fact that people are questioning whether your boy is suitable to be involved in youth cycling and saying that he isn't.
 
Surely, the key question here is "will it do good or bad"

For the youths involved, I'd say 90+% good: the guy is an idol in Spain and does know a bit about cycle racing as well. He'll inspire them, no doubt. The notion that he'll encourage them to dope is really too far fetched, even for the Clinic. Sure, if they go into procycling, they are going to have to make a choice, but I can't see Contador being influential in pushing youths into doping.

For Contador, you could be cynical and see it like Lance & cancer, but one of the problems for the Clinic and cycling just now is that EVERYTHING is seen through Lance tinted glasses.....we need to move on and address the issues of the present and the future, not the past.

For cycling, who is investing money and time in youth development just now?
So I suggest we get off our high horses and either ignore what Contador is doing here, or welcome it.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Your argument falls down because you see Contador as the victim rather than the perpetrator.

You must be the first person who sees a doper as akin to a rape victim. Which if we are talking about offensive analogies, then you are really pushing the boat out there.

Yes, Poor Dertie is the victim here, he was just minding his own business when Pepe Marti came up and started injecting him with EPO, next thing he knew, Hog came up and started removing his blood and then re-injecting him with it.

And you think that post 17 was offensive...

The analogy to a rapist/child-molester/heroin dealer/mass murderer, not because there is equivalence between the two activities but because the bottomline is this would you let your children take part in an activity sponsored by someone who has engaged in illegal activities for the whole of their life and shows no evidence of having reformed.

Would you let your children take part in a team run by Armstrong? Hog? Ferrari? Saiz? Michael Jackson? The answer to all of these is no because they, like Contador are unsuitable people to be involved with youth/junior cycling because of their pasts.
I don't quite follow the analogy of the rapist with a doper, but to answer your question, I believe Tiler Hamilton is now providing cycling training. if I had the means, time and money I would let my kids train with him, so now maybe some of you would say but, but he wrote a book, but he's sorry but, but.... it's not the same AC still active.....
If you already made up your mind about the whole Kids and AC thing, then ok but I think some may think investing in the sport is a much needed breath of fresh air, we'll see if this is a wrong move down the road.
 
May 3, 2010
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It comes down to the question about what is the place of unrepentant dopers in the future of cycling? Should they be involved in cycling?

Some people seem to be saying that 'well we don't care who is investing in cycling as long as there is investment in cycling' - less my country right or wrong and more my sponsor right or wrong, which to my mind seems to be inviting disaster.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Mrs John Murphy said:
It comes down to the question about what is the place of unrepentant dopers in the future of cycling? Should they be involved in cycling?

Some people seem to be saying that 'well we don't care who is investing in cycling as long as there is investment in cycling' - less my country right or wrong and more my sponsor right or wrong, which to my mind seems to be inviting disaster.
It seems fair to ask those questions. Look, at the end of the day some people see it as positive thing (me included) some people may see it your way and is absolutely fair.
 
Oct 28, 2012
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Mrs John Murphy said:
No you didn't. You chose to present Contador as akin to a victim than as a perpetrator.

You've not done bad for a keyboard warrior pretending to have a moral compass.

It does amuse me when like the Armstrong fans of old use to claim to speak for all cancer victims, you are somehow able to speak for all rape and abuse victims, and are somehow able to determine what is or is not offensive for them. All the while missing the point of the analogy. But thanks for telling people what to think.

Spare me your faux outrage. This isn't anything to do with the analogy. It is the fact that you don't like the fact that people are questioning whether your boy is suitable to be involved in youth cycling and saying that he isn't.
And here comes the classic "I bashed Armstrong, you're just a fan boy, I ran out of arguments so I'll re use your line, you vs us, I'll flame my sorry way out of it" post.

Mrs John Murphy said:
Would you let a 17-18 year old accept candy from a sexual predator?

I believe the word we are looking for here is 'grooming'
False accusations of child abuse are not a matter of opinion, but law.

I make no presentation of the riders status other than pointing out your flawed logic, and as such even more offensive analogy, and would do the same were the slur aplied to any other rider.

If you had a reasonable point or concern regarding the new youth team you could have made that quite easily without the sexual child abuser line, and in a maner illustrating consideration of both the subject and implications.

You could have simply expressed regret at the unfortunate analogy when it was pointed out to you.

The truth is you sound exactly like Lance, and every crackpot you claim to despise.
 
Oct 28, 2012
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Mrs John Murphy said:
It comes down to the question about what is the place of unrepentant dopers in the future of cycling? Should they be involved in cycling?

Some people seem to be saying that 'well we don't care who is investing in cycling as long as there is investment in cycling' - less my country right or wrong and more my sponsor right or wrong, which to my mind seems to be inviting disaster.
It comes down to who is best qualified and willing to perform the task of developement, and when having minors involved, ensuring that there are sufficient safeguards in place to prevent irregularities, irrespective of whom the coaches or sponsors are.

It would seem to me both sides in such a venture are taking risks, especially in view of the critisism offered here for giving back to the sport.

Perhaps you should loby the 'Boy Scouts of America' or 'The Pope' to back and run the accademies?
 
May 3, 2010
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Except that no one accused anyone of being a sexual predator. So you've falsely accused posters of making accusations. (FYI 'Grooming' is the manipulation of any minor for the purposes of the adult)

So lets see, you've compared Contador to a rape victim, falsely accused posters of making accusations, misunderstood an analogy, presented yourself as the spokesman for rape and abuse victims and you're accusing other people of bad taste.

LOL
 
Oct 28, 2012
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Except that no one accused anyone of being a sexual predator. So you've falsely accused posters of making accusations. (FYI 'Grooming' is the manipulation of any minor for the purposes of the adult)

So lets see, you've compared Contador to a rape victim, falsely accused posters of making accusations, misunderstood an analogy, presented yourself as the spokesman for rape and abuse victims and you're accusing other people of bad taste.

LOL
You find it funny?

Grooming

Child Grooming Law & Legal Definition
Child grooming refers to an act of deliberately establishing an emotional connection with a child to prepare the child for child abuse. Child grooming is undertaken usually to carry out sexual abuse and other child exploitation like trafficking of children, child prostitution or the production of child pornography. Currently child grooming occur through the use of internet.

In the U.S. child grooming is considered a federal offence pursuant to 18 USCS � 2422. the provision of the section reads as �(a) Whoever knowingly persuades, induces, entices, or coerces any individual to travel in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or Possession of the United States, to engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

(b) Whoever, using the mail or any facility or means of interstate or foreign commerce, or within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States knowingly persuades, induces, entices, or coerces any individual who has not attained the age of 18 years, to engage in prostitution or any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title and imprisoned not less than 10 years or for life�.
Mrs John Murphy said:
Would you let a 17-18 year old accept candy from a sexual predator?

I believe the word we are looking for here is 'grooming'
 
Mrs John Murphy said:
This assumes that he has abandoned the dark-side. And there is slightly more than 'clen from a steak', you know the Puerto problems, the CERA Giro issue, the 2007 TDF, the hanging out with Saiz, Hog and Riis, the Pepe Marti issue, the plasticizers, the TUES and of course the head issue.
Is there any evidence that Alberto might've been among the guys who tested positive?

Would you let your children hang out with an ex-rapist or drug dealer who may or may not have given up raping people or dealing drugs?
That is a silly question because you cannot compare a doper to a rapist.
 
Mrs John Murphy said:
Your argument falls down because you see Contador as the victim rather than the perpetrator.

You must be the first person who sees a doper as akin to a rape victim. Which if we are talking about offensive analogies, then you are really pushing the boat out there.
You must be the first person who compares dopers to rapists and child molesters.

Would you let your children take part in a team run by Armstrong? Hog? Ferrari? Saiz? Michael Jackson? The answer to all of these is no because they, like Contador are unsuitable people to be involved with youth/junior cycling because of their pasts.
Lol at you comparing Alberto to those people omg you really are pathetic.
 
coinneach said:
Surely, the key question here is "will it do good or bad"

For the youths involved, I'd say 90+% good: the guy is an idol in Spain and does know a bit about cycle racing as well. He'll inspire them, no doubt. The notion that he'll encourage them to dope is really too far fetched, even for the Clinic. Sure, if they go into procycling, they are going to have to make a choice, but I can't see Contador being influential in pushing youths into doping.

For Contador, you could be cynical and see it like Lance & cancer, but one of the problems for the Clinic and cycling just now is that EVERYTHING is seen through Lance tinted glasses.....we need to move on and address the issues of the present and the future, not the past.

For cycling, who is investing money and time in youth development just now?
So I suggest we get off our high horses and either ignore what Contador is doing here, or welcome it.
gatete said:
I don't quite follow the analogy of the rapist with a doper, but to answer your question, I believe Tiler Hamilton is now providing cycling training. if I had the means, time and money I would let my kids train with him, so now maybe some of you would say but, but he wrote a book, but he's sorry but, but.... it's not the same AC still active.....
If you already made up your mind about the whole Kids and AC thing, then ok but I think some may think investing in the sport is a much needed breath of fresh air, we'll see if this is a wrong move down the road.
Great posts thank you guys
 

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