Le Baroudeur said:
Le Baroudeur said:
Le Baroudeur said:
Well done don't let him bring you down keep on pointing out he's wrong.
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Well done don't let him bring you down keep on pointing out he's wrong.
Mrs John Murphy said:
So you are accusing Alberto of grooming, yes I know perfectly well what this means and I believe this is a very severe accusation. (I do wonder whether you actually know what it means)
So we can add, selective use of evidence to, fake outage, false accusations, comparing a doper to a rape victim.
I've added the emphasis as you seem to think that grooming only applies to sexual abuse which it doesn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_grooming
You would have to be pretty insane to think that:
i) Anyone in this thread is accusing Contador of being a rapist/child molester
ii) Anyone is saying that doping is equivalent to rape.
However, what is being said is that Contador's history of doping and involvement with doping (beyond his ban) renders him unsuitable to be involved in youth cycling. That just as no one in their right mind would let their children train with a rapist, murderer, fraudster, armed robber, no one in their right mind ought to let their children be involved in a team sponsored by an unrepentant doper. (Hence the analogy). The reasons for this are clear because of the vulnerability of children.
If an adult such as Dave Zabriskie found it impossible to resist the pressure to dope, what hope is there for a child to resist the pressure to dope if they are being told to do so by their 'hero'. At a time when cycling is looking to 'move on' and looking towards the next generation, there is and there should be, concern about the involvement of unrepentant, hardcore dopers in youth cycling. This is precisely the point in time at which, clean riders can be subverted into dirty riders dependent upon drugs as a physical and emotional crutch when they reach the pro-peloton.
Oh yes - A child is defined as anyone under the age of 18 as per the 1989 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. In response to whoever it was who was saying that a 17-18 year old can make their own decisions.
I've added the emphasis as you seem to think that grooming only applies to sexual abuse which it doesn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_grooming
You would have to be pretty insane to think that:
i) Anyone in this thread is accusing Contador of being a rapist/child molester
ii) Anyone is saying that doping is equivalent to rape.
However, what is being said is that Contador's history of doping and involvement with doping (beyond his ban) renders him unsuitable to be involved in youth cycling. That just as no one in their right mind would let their children train with a rapist, murderer, fraudster, armed robber, no one in their right mind ought to let their children be involved in a team sponsored by an unrepentant doper. (Hence the analogy). The reasons for this are clear because of the vulnerability of children.
If an adult such as Dave Zabriskie found it impossible to resist the pressure to dope, what hope is there for a child to resist the pressure to dope if they are being told to do so by their 'hero'. At a time when cycling is looking to 'move on' and looking towards the next generation, there is and there should be, concern about the involvement of unrepentant, hardcore dopers in youth cycling. This is precisely the point in time at which, clean riders can be subverted into dirty riders dependent upon drugs as a physical and emotional crutch when they reach the pro-peloton.
Oh yes - A child is defined as anyone under the age of 18 as per the 1989 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. In response to whoever it was who was saying that a 17-18 year old can make their own decisions.
I dont think that the anologies given by some when decrying Contador's involvement in setting up a team are good ones, however I think it is a bad thing for someone like Contador with his failed test, unrepentant doping and link to fuentes to be involved in something like this, I think Contador(along with Valverde) is the worse of the top proffesional cyclist amongst the current peleton.
Mrs John Murphy said:
Okay let's stop discussing this now, I don't know if you're on twitter but if you are please get in touch with the boys and save them from the great harm this evil ******* named Alberto Contador will bring upon them.
https://twitter.com/Pazosfernandez
https://twitter.com/Fperezsolorzano
https://twitter.com/SergioFdez115
https://twitter.com/acmorata
https://twitter.com/OscarLinaress
https://twitter.com/Diego_9604
https://twitter.com/alcaide68
https://twitter.com/victor9523
You create a new ethical/psychological issue immediately. Is it wise to unleash hell from the anti-doping community just as they are about to be groomed by their national hero, whom they likely think to be a global hero?LaFlorecita said:
Contador is the mouth that feeds them, he will be forced to pressure them even harder, and get the doping into their system even quicker. "Too late kid, you're a doper for life now. Make the best of it, I did. You may dedide for yourself what's right or wrong, but I'm telling you it's alright".
So, let these dopers to be go viral within the AD community, or put our pressure elsewhere? If only the spanish cycling fed were into AD at all... they could haste to get some blood profiles on them, and put them under a dense testing program. Not at their targeted race, but during their training leading up to it. This is actually where LeMond's method might work out, power testing. If only to help focus even harder on suspect individuals. An AD agency should support these kids in staying clean, by making it impossible to dope. Perhaps doping bans need to be harsher for U23's? Forces them to get an education, not gamble on mountains of gold they earn from just pedaling, supposedly to not have to work after 30. And yeah, lower budgets and prizes for U23 teams.
Contador won't run the team himself, he sponsors it. Do you actually think that he's gonna tell these kids to drug themselves. That would mean that only one of these kids would have to point a finger to Contador for Contador's career to be over and seriously don't think Contador is that stupid.
The DS might tell them to dope, but i'm inclined to think that these kids should have at least half a brain themselves and make the choice for themselves, wether they want to dope or not. Some of them might be so ambitious they would start doping wether it's offered by the team or not.
Spanish teams are quitting everywhere, has the thought crossed your mind that Contador maybe just wants to give the kids a chance to make it as a pro?
The DS might tell them to dope, but i'm inclined to think that these kids should have at least half a brain themselves and make the choice for themselves, wether they want to dope or not. Some of them might be so ambitious they would start doping wether it's offered by the team or not.
Spanish teams are quitting everywhere, has the thought crossed your mind that Contador maybe just wants to give the kids a chance to make it as a pro?
It is ironic, on the one hand we have people questioning whether Riis, Hog, Saiz, Vino, Ekimov etc should be involved in pro-racing because of their doping histories. And yet, because sponsors are withdrawing, and it is 'giving kids a chance' somehow, we should welcome Contador's involvement. That because it is 'charity' we should set aside any concerns over the appropriateness of Contador sponsoring a team.
Just because investment is declining in youth cycling does not mean you should welcome investment from an unrepentant doper.
Cancer shield is replaced by youth cycling shield.
Given that some Contador fans try to apologise and defend everything he does, what chance would a rider have if he did report that Contador was encouraging doping within the team? I am pretty sure that they would not be believed.
The unquestioning acceptance of everything Contador says and does, and indeed that some people, like a cud-chewing bovines staring vacantly out into the middle distance, seem to revel in not questioning anything that he does only serves to create an even more potentially dangerous and exploitable environment.
Just because investment is declining in youth cycling does not mean you should welcome investment from an unrepentant doper.
Cancer shield is replaced by youth cycling shield.
Given that some Contador fans try to apologise and defend everything he does, what chance would a rider have if he did report that Contador was encouraging doping within the team? I am pretty sure that they would not be believed.
The unquestioning acceptance of everything Contador says and does, and indeed that some people, like a cud-chewing bovines staring vacantly out into the middle distance, seem to revel in not questioning anything that he does only serves to create an even more potentially dangerous and exploitable environment.
Pleased to see my intial thoughts are appreciated.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1073034&postcount=14
But then it all got inflammatory and went into a outbursts of emotional characters. So we had to scroll down a very long way before finding something to build on.
Red Rick said:
As i said early it would be wise checking up which role Contador will have in the team: money? symbolic? training advice (not speaking juice here)? Eating advice (not speaking steak here)? Or just lending his name to the academy as with many of these academies. The newly risen idea of him as some sorts of witch doctor creating PEDs and distributing them to youngsters is naive and mere speculation for now, since we dont have that much details about the project.
While i dont like this at all coming out in this period of time: Martí has yet to speak and it could be considered a stroke of genius setting up a youth academy with your name on in an effort of making yourself untouchable (as Armstrong did), i´d for once hope AC has learned something in this last couple of months. He might not speak out right now but regretting towards himself and works towards a better and cleaner cycling.
Wheter you like it or not. He is a heavy piece in cycling and his words and, above all, actions is of great value. Hopefully, he does the right things.
airstream
BANNED
where are laid out vuelta blood values?!No_Balls said:
Without them, 'regretting' is out of question.
Fidolix
BANNED
Mrs John Murphy said:
I have in the name of God never seen so many fortune tellers, prosecutors, judges and executioners in one place, performing their function as society's right advocates.
There is a continuous line which is repeated here, are you in favor or just have a more realistic approach to the material which has been examined, or you just have another opinion, so God be gracious upon your soul, for you shall burn in hell.
The problem is though, it's pretty obvious who's the donkeys throughout the discussion truly are.
Firstly, one must be both stupid and preconceived if they in honesty think anybody wants to dope themselves because they like it, and put their health, life's and careers at stick, and intend to convey this to children, to you I say, get a life, go out more, see some sunlight, check out the real world.
For most of the dopers they were part of a culture, a culture which had no sufficient scientific and medical means to stop it or the motivation and wish to do so.
The Omerta ruled, along with the LA terror regime. Who in gods name could fight against it, but it does not mean anyone would like or wish to continue down this alley now there is a chance for a cleaner sport.
Personally I think a guy like AC would love to race on clean conditions, why is obvious...he´s just better than anybody else atm.
Another thing, some of the clinics so-called experts sit here and praises Zabriskie for his openness and honesty he have shown, and it was the psychopath LA and his hard childhood who made him dope, which likely is the truth, but my problem is that he continued to dope after he came out of Armstrong's regime, and it was a choice he himself took.
Both he and Vande de Velde has said they never saw or received or witnessed organized doping at Riis team in their time there, the same said McGee, but anyway, these things are ignored by the clinic so-called experts for this match obviously not into their rather narrow world view or should say, at least for some of it members.
I think it´s healthy to have a reasonable negative attitude towards the past, and not take anything for granted, but keep it at level of reality and try stick to the facts as facts and not state personally opinions as hard evidence.
I my self can say I have had a great pleasure of following the case against Armstrong through the clinic, and it´s obvious it has many experts in a wide range of the society, but I must admit this thread and lots of it´s contents is way below standard and seems to be motivated on personally feelings and not on facts what so ever.
OK. The way I see it, the act itself is admirable. It's never a wrong thing to invest in the future of cycling.
HOWEVER, there is a difference in who's initiating such an act. If JV starts a junior team, I would have no problem trusting the integrity of this team, because JV has been extremely outspoken against doping, despite the fact that he's an admitted doper.
Contador is a convicted doper and he never admitted to anything. Kind of like Valverde to me. Contador seems like a nice enough fellow with a good heart (not all dopers are evil people). But when you develop a junior team with these kids just starting out, they need a good role model. Someone who will steer them towards the right direction in everything, from technique to training to even ethics.
I'm not sure if Contador is such a great role model in terms of ethics. I don't believe Contador is thinking, "I want to develop a new generation of cyclists who dope", and I don't think he will openly encourage these kids to dope, but if we want cycling to change, it has to start with these kids. Can Contador be that role model? It's hard to say.
HOWEVER, there is a difference in who's initiating such an act. If JV starts a junior team, I would have no problem trusting the integrity of this team, because JV has been extremely outspoken against doping, despite the fact that he's an admitted doper.
Contador is a convicted doper and he never admitted to anything. Kind of like Valverde to me. Contador seems like a nice enough fellow with a good heart (not all dopers are evil people). But when you develop a junior team with these kids just starting out, they need a good role model. Someone who will steer them towards the right direction in everything, from technique to training to even ethics.
I'm not sure if Contador is such a great role model in terms of ethics. I don't believe Contador is thinking, "I want to develop a new generation of cyclists who dope", and I don't think he will openly encourage these kids to dope, but if we want cycling to change, it has to start with these kids. Can Contador be that role model? It's hard to say.
Finally, someone who gets it in colours other than black and white!!TheEnoculator said:
I'm a bit sceptical as well but you have to accept that Contador is a massive drawcard and will encourage juniors to take up the sport. I'll reserve my judgement until I know AC's role in the project and who the development staff will be and what their backgrounds are.
Don't forget that the Rabo conti squad was heavily anti-doping even while the PT team was encouraging/ignoring doping at the same time, so all may not be lost. Chances are the project will be scrutinised closely - and rightly so. Hopefully AC and those behind this project recognise this and act accordingly as the last thing the sport needs is a systemically doped development environment as it could be the final nail in the coffin.
Fidolix
BANNED
TheEnoculator said:
I totally agree with your view points, and we should care and worry about our children´s well being at all times.
How ever, that people expects a "confession" from AC is not being realistic, not at this point in time at least.
He´s an active cyclist with a doping violation in the bag, no way he can stand up and admit to anything, and with good reason, his career would end.
Everyone who admitted to doping are either retired or they struck a deal, and none of them were sanctioned in the past for other doping violations.
Offer AC a 6 months ban served doing the winter season and he might do it, but otherwise not.
So unless WADA makes some kind of amnesty for past dopers to come forward and lay the cards on the table without being sanctioned, it´s not gonna happen in the nearest future, and I must admit, with his past and latest violation I doubt he will as long he´s active.
A morale dispute? You can say that, but I would not like to be in his shoes and make these choices, but I think AC is well aware about the morale aspects about this project, that there wont be any problems.
AC does not strike me as a person who would dream of hurting children or encourage kids to do any wrong doing.
Multiple personality disorder. Is it possible to be your own sockpuppet?42x16ss said:Interesting, is it possible to ignore yourself?
Or are we being subtle here
This entire argument is a moot point. I have said it before, and will repeat it until the cows come home. We are only one month into the fallout of the USADA investigation and it has already been not only tremendous, but global. There is no way that it will end now. Riis and Clenbutador will not be involved in cycling by the time the TdF roles around.
Fidolix said:
Just bias. It have simply come out too many former heroes from the dirty woodwork so we just need to selectively pick and choose which of them are guilty and who isnt. Alright we have Armstrong as the main baddy here but what about Zabriskie? Good innocent lad who despite cheating during his active career now speaks out against doping. Hamilton? Same deal here and he has even written a book about it. Landis? Ok ok we get it but he has atleast confessed. Contador? I tell you dude he went directly to Bruyneel saying: Could people have some juice here? Never mind he did exactly the same things as our heroes, when active, but lets screw reason for a moment: we need Scapegoats now when Armstrong is not around.
The moment when McGee was hailed as a hero when speaking out against doping, before the Clinic logic was triggered and they realised he works together with AC, was simply priceless. A collective syntax error if i ever saw one. I mean here we have the current Count Dooku in the peloton working effortless with guy stating no doping rule in his work ethics. And to make matters worse:
A lot of the time that McGee has spent during the last two seasons as a DS has been with Alberto Contador. The Spaniard has been stripped of two grand tour wins, the 2010 Tour de France and the 2011 Giro d'Italia. It was McGee behind the wheel when Contador won the recent Vuelta a Españ]
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/brad-mcgee-no-time-like-the-present
airstream said:where are laid out vuelta blood values?!
See Fidolix answer. I personally have ruled out any form of "regretting" during his active career for obvious reasons. Having, probably i must say, done the same thing as Zabriskie he might, after having nothing to loose, speak more openly about his whereabouts and taking an official stand against doping. Ohh, wait...
airstream
BANNED
Contador hasn't ever been similar to a benefactor. If the best happened he is a two-faced Janus in who black coloring vastly prevails over white one. Apparently, cycling school is another trick in the fight for WT license.
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