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Contador - last year - more risk ?

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SeriousSam said:
To resume the discussion from a while ago; with another chance to win the Tour gone (and it didn't look likely he'd win even before the crashes) and Contador's age, it's close to settled now:

His reign as king of the GT racers was remarkably short, with Froome the top rider ever since the Vuelta in 2011.

Though he said he'd continue 2 more years, I think he'll reevaluate that after getting clobbered in yet another Tour.
3GT wins>2GT wins

Second place = First last
 
Pantani Attacks said:
SeriousSam said:
To resume the discussion from a while ago; with another chance to win the Tour gone (and it didn't look likely he'd win even before the crashes) and Contador's age, it's close to settled now:

His reign as king of the GT racers was remarkably short, with Froome the top rider ever since the Vuelta in 2011.

Though he said he'd continue 2 more years, I think he'll reevaluate that after getting clobbered in yet another Tour.
3GT wins>2GT wins

Second place = First last
Three? More like seven. In some eyes 9, and the only rider to win all three, 3x.

Froome may win more TDFs but he won't win as many GTs.
 
Mar 12, 2009
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42x16ss said:
Pantani Attacks said:
SeriousSam said:
To resume the discussion from a while ago; with another chance to win the Tour gone (and it didn't look likely he'd win even before the crashes) and Contador's age, it's close to settled now:

His reign as king of the GT racers was remarkably short, with Froome the top rider ever since the Vuelta in 2011.

Though he said he'd continue 2 more years, I think he'll reevaluate that after getting clobbered in yet another Tour.
3GT wins>2GT wins

Second place = First last
Three? More like seven. In some eyes 9, and the only rider to win all three, 3x.

Froome may win more TDFs but he won't win as many GTs.
Think that was meant to Sam's claim of Froome being the top rider since 2011. Even when Contador has won more GT's since than him. Not sure how that logic works, maybe Tour is the only GT for some.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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No need to discount the Giro and the Vuelta. All that's needed is to give them less weight than the Tour, which is just about universally accepted.
 
peloton said:
42x16ss said:
Pantani Attacks said:
SeriousSam said:
To resume the discussion from a while ago; with another chance to win the Tour gone (and it didn't look likely he'd win even before the crashes) and Contador's age, it's close to settled now:

His reign as king of the GT racers was remarkably short, with Froome the top rider ever since the Vuelta in 2011.

Though he said he'd continue 2 more years, I think he'll reevaluate that after getting clobbered in yet another Tour.
3GT wins>2GT wins

Second place = First last
Three? More like seven. In some eyes 9, and the only rider to win all three, 3x.

Froome may win more TDFs but he won't win as many GTs.
Think that was meant to Sam's claim of Froome being the top rider since 2011. Even when Contador has won more GT's since than him. Not sure how that logic works, maybe Tour is the only GT for some.
Tour is the most important gt.

No one appreciates and loves the Giro and Vuelta more than me but reality is to be the best rider you have to show it at the Tour, you can't just rake up Giro's and Vueltas and make that claim. Fact is, for more than half a decade now, Contador has not shown that.
 
This idea that the Tour is most important is complete BS and is completely down to the extra attention and media coverage it receives and nothing more. The Vuelta and the Giro are arguably tougher GTs than the Tour which has stunk to hell high in recent years with very boring stages throughout. The routes are tougher and more often than not the competition is largely superior. In 2012 the Tour was the worst GT of the year by a considerable margin. It was one of the ugliest and most boring GTs in history. Contador won the Vuelta that year and it's one of the best GTs of the last decade. 2014 was the exact same, the Vuelta was the best, Contador won that again. Nobody can honestly say Wiggins' or Nibali's wins those years are on a higher standing than those Vuelta wins, even if it was to complete Nibali's triple crown. 2013, the Tour probably was the best GT, mainly because Horner winning casts a massive shadow over the Vuelta. The Giro and Vuelta last year smashed the Tour to pieces as well.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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You're conflating the level of competition, the importance of the races as seen by the riders themselves, the sponsors, the media and most fans, with your own subjective rating of the Grand Tours.

The Giro and the Vuelta may have 'smashed' The Tour when it comes to your entertainment, but the strongest GT riders targeted the Tour as they almost always do, and thus the Tour had the highest level of GT riding, as it almost always has.
 
Re:

Pantani Attacks said:
This idea that the Tour is most important is complete BS and is completely down to the extra attention and media coverage it receives and nothing more. The Vuelta and the Giro are arguably tougher GTs than the Tour which has stunk to hell high in recent years with very boring stages throughout. The routes are tougher and more often than not the competition is largely superior. In 2012 the Tour was the worst GT of the year by a considerable margin. It was one of the ugliest and most boring GTs in history. Contador won the Vuelta that year and it's one of the best GTs of the last decade. 2014 was the exact same, the Vuelta was the best, Contador won that again. Nobody can honestly say Wiggins' or Nibali's wins those years are on a higher standing than those Vuelta wins, even if it was to complete Nibali's triple crown. 2013, the Tour probably was the best GT, mainly because Horner winning casts a massive shadow over the Vuelta. The Giro and Vuelta last year smashed the Tour to pieces as well.
Wait what?
Can't say 2012 Tour was better than 2012 Vuelta?

Are you serious?
Valverde came 2nd in that Vuelta. Same Valverde struggled throughout that Tour.

the 2012 Tour had Froome and Nibali on the podium spot. That's 2 of the 3 top gt riders of the last decade with atm 3 TDF's and 6 gts total between them.

Rodriguez and Valverde together have 0 Tours and 1 gt.

The only argument for the Vuelta was that Contador won it. And back the Contador was seen as the gt king. 4 years later its difficult to make that argument. At the end of the day Wiggins smashed Nibali by 6 minutes. To play down the level Sky were doping at for that gt (its the clinic so thankfully we can call it what it is) is wrong.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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I think some people are defining best by entertainment value rather than palmares of podium. 2011 was he last TDF where the winner wasn't a foregone conclusion by the halfway point.
 
Re:

Pantani Attacks said:
This idea that the Tour is most important is complete BS and is completely down to the extra attention and media coverage it receives and nothing more. The Vuelta and the Giro are arguably tougher GTs than the Tour which has stunk to hell high in recent years with very boring stages throughout. The routes are tougher and more often than not the competition is largely superior. In 2012 the Tour was the worst GT of the year by a considerable margin. It was one of the ugliest and most boring GTs in history. Contador won the Vuelta that year and it's one of the best GTs of the last decade. 2014 was the exact same, the Vuelta was the best, Contador won that again. Nobody can honestly say Wiggins' or Nibali's wins those years are on a higher standing than those Vuelta wins, even if it was to complete Nibali's triple crown. 2013, the Tour probably was the best GT, mainly because Horner winning casts a massive shadow over the Vuelta. The Giro and Vuelta last year smashed the Tour to pieces as well.
wild guess: you are a bertie fan and hate sky and froome in particular with vitriol passion. yes or no?
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Re:

Perhaps he / people might think that the Vuelta ( and Giro ) have been more of a race than the Tour.. and they might be right..


Also Froome has had his ass handed to him at the Vuelta and Richy P had the same at the Giro

Those races are raced in a very different way than the Tour .. Just saying.

We saw Armstrong show up at the Giro and get an asswhooping..

Kind of goes back to the whole race all year vs show up at the tour and kill it..
 
Re: Re:

dolophonic said:
Perhaps he / people might think that the Vuelta ( and Giro ) have been more of a race than the Tour.. and they might be right..


Also Froome has had his *** handed to him at the Vuelta and Richy P had the same at the Giro

Those races are raced in a very different way than the Tour .. Just saying.

We saw Armstrong show up at the Giro and get an asswhooping..

Kind of goes back to the whole race all year vs show up at the tour and kill it..
Not peak Armstrong.

Sure people can have the opinion that the competition is higher in the vuelta and giro than the tour. By the same token people can think that the world is 6000 years old. If they so wish. Doesn't mean such opinions have any grounding in reality nor does it make them immune from criticism
 
serious sam summed up it pretty well. people conflating the general level of competition and being content / deeply disappointed with the result one would like to see. i personally equally disliked both the 2009 and 2012 tour editions. however only 2012 tour somewhat is considered one of the ugliest tours in the history of cycling.
 
SeriousSam said:
To resume the discussion from a while ago; with another chance to win the Tour gone (and it didn't look likely he'd win even before the crashes) and Contador's age, it's close to settled now:

His reign as king of the GT racers was remarkably short, with Froome the top rider ever since the Vuelta in 2011.

Though he said he'd continue 2 more years, I think he'll reevaluate that after getting clobbered in yet another Tour.
Lol
 
Red Rick said:
SeriousSam said:
To resume the discussion from a while ago; with another chance to win the Tour gone (and it didn't look likely he'd win even before the crashes) and Contador's age, it's close to settled now:

His reign as king of the GT racers was remarkably short, with Froome the top rider ever since the Vuelta in 2011.

Though he said he'd continue 2 more years, I think he'll reevaluate that after getting clobbered in yet another Tour.
Lol
I mean, he hasn't quite dominated like Indurain or Armstrong, but Froome quite clearly has been the best gt rider since 2011 and I don't think its close
 
Aug 31, 2012
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The case for Froome is pretty clear. He was the strongest rider at the Tour every year since 2011, only failing to win when he had to ride for Wiggins and when he crashed. If he wins this year, his streak of being the strongest GT rider equals Indurain's (who never crashed or had to ride for someone else).
 
Re:

The Hitch said:
Red Rick said:
SeriousSam said:
To resume the discussion from a while ago; with another chance to win the Tour gone (and it didn't look likely he'd win even before the crashes) and Contador's age, it's close to settled now:

His reign as king of the GT racers was remarkably short, with Froome the top rider ever since the Vuelta in 2011.

Though he said he'd continue 2 more years, I think he'll reevaluate that after getting clobbered in yet another Tour.
Lol
I mean, he hasn't quite dominated like Indurain or Armstrong, but Froome quite clearly has been the best gt rider since 2011 and I don't think its close
I agree there's an argument for that, I don't agree that it's not close. Especially if you look at palmares from that period. And I'm not just looking at Contador.

But he's clearly stating that Froome has been the best GT rider every year since 2011, which is laughable.

SeriousSam said:
The case for Froome is pretty clear. He was the strongest rider at the Tour every year since 2011, only failing to win when he had to ride for Wiggins and when he crashed. If he wins this year, his streak of being the strongest GT rider equals Indurain's (who never crashed or had to ride for someone else).
 
Aug 31, 2012
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It seems that you want to define 'best' as number of GT victories counting all 3 equally, which is pretty clearly not what I'm talking about. I suppose an argument going beyond a count of Vueltas and Giros won't be forthcoming anytime soon.
 
Sep 15, 2014
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Re:

SeriousSam said:
The case for Froome is pretty clear. He was the strongest rider at the Tour every year since 2011, only failing to win when he had to ride for Wiggins and when he crashed. If he wins this year, his streak of being the strongest GT rider equals Indurain's (who never crashed or had to ride for someone else).
Actually, the year before Indurain won his first victory he had to ride for Pedro Delgado. If memory serves me right people say he was much stronger than Delgado, who knows maybe he could have won.
 
Re:

SeriousSam said:
It seems that you want to define 'best' as number of GT victories counting all 3 equally, which is pretty clearly not what I'm talking about. I suppose an argument going beyond a count of Vueltas and Giros won't be forthcoming anytime soon.
I know the Tour is everything. Only thing that's better apparently is a 2nd place in the Vuelta, but only in years that Froome gets it.
 
Re:

SeriousSam said:
It seems that you want to define 'best' as number of GT victories counting all 3 equally, which is pretty clearly not what I'm talking about. I suppose an argument going beyond a count of Vueltas and Giros won't be forthcoming anytime soon.
Who do you think was the best GT rider in 2011?
 

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