Contador says he might stick w/ Astana!?

[Publicus]

Apparently, there is no convincing you guys. As much as I like both riders, I'm sick of discussing it.

Agreeing to disagree.

I would much prefer to discuss the present and future.

You haven't offered much in the way of facts to bolster your opinion.

 

[thehog]

I think you guys are missing the point here. It is a well known tactic; I understand that, but I don't ever remember Lance's US Postal and Discovery Channel teams monopolizing the GC the way Astana had at this point. Admittedly, I was only a casual cycling fan at that time, but that kind of dominance I don't remember in recent years. Attacking with no purpose but to gain time on a teammate doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't matter what teammates are involved; If it were VdV trying to gain time on Wiggo, I would have the same reaction. Hell if it were Lance launching an all out attack trying to seperate himself from AC, I would be equally appalled.

You need to strike any of the work USPS "performed" from 1999-2005 from your mind.

Watching George Hincapie ride entire stages on the front of the peleton at record speeds whereby no rider could possibility attack as they were riding at well over 40km p/h. Then to see the same man ride up mountains chatting to team mates, hands of the bars and adjusting his sunglasses showed how sick cycling really got. Yes all for the clinic but please don't base anything that team did at the Tour has a measure for anything in this era. It just not right.

 

[ratatata]

Contador to Astana: "If There's a Positive, I Leave"

http://www.nortecastilla.es/2009110...ontador-liga-continuidad-astana-20091106.html

 

[thehog]

CONTADOR TO ASTANA: "IF THERE'S A POSITIVE, I LEAVE"
November 6 - Contador won't consider a future at Astana without zero-tolerance doping policy

He has an agreement, but wants to sign a document that allows him to leave the team if there’s a positive

nortecastilla.es - The dilemma of Alberto Contador’s future revolves around the epicenter of any cycling conversation of the last ten years. Doping, the scourge, the public image, the murky waters of a marvelous sport…

The doubts of the Tour winner don’t reside in the sport-related side of Astana that will protect him, in the fiscal solvency of a team that has fallen behind in payments this season, or in his annual salary.

Contador doesn’t want kerfuffles with the “police.” And he is trying to establish a contractual regulation that doesn’t have many precedents in cycling’s labor market and which is summarized in an epigraph: “If there’s a positive, I leave.”

****

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Hog, haven't we had this discussion before? Do not include an entire article. A few grafs and the link, please.

Thank you.

Susan

 

[craig1985]

Hog, haven't we had this discussion before? Do not include an entire article. A few grafs and the link, please.

Thank you.

Susan

Wouldn't that story belong in The Clinic anyway? Just a crazy thought.

 

[euphrades]

Wouldn't that story belong in The Clinic anyway? Just a crazy thought.

Not for a single person's post.

I am not a total fan of the "real" Hog, but you have sense that there is always some half truth to things people say. I am starting to sense that Alberto is focused solely on himself and driven by money. Sounds like he is going to get 4 million euros and wants a clause stating that Vinokirov is riding the Giro not the Tour

 

[craig1985]

I suppose when you have won your last four GT's, you do have a lot of power when it comes to contracts. I sort of hope that he sticks with Astana for one more year and Fernando Alonso comes in and sponsors a team.

 

[El Imbatido]

I Just hope that Bruyneel will enforce his new found GT tactic at Radioshack next season of: "Letting the road decide who is team leader" - They could have 3 leaders with LL and AK all a very good chance of being stronger than LA.

OR will they go back to "Laying it all out for the ONE team leader"

If they do the latter i will LOL if they have to haul LA's arse up the mountain if he gets shelled out the back BUT i would probably be disappointed as well because LL and AK will probably have to give up all chances of victory in the process. ie. Like AK dragging an obviously injured and suffering Vino over mountains in 07 just because it was Vino's team.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

I am starting to sense that Alberto is focused solely on himself and driven by money. Sounds like he is going to get 4 million euros and wants a clause stating that Vinokirov is riding the Giro not the Tour

He is becoming what everybody seems to hate about Lance, but they fail to realize it because of his current ability and potential. I accept the fact that he wants to be compensated for his recent palmares; he deserves it, but to propose the clause that Vino not ride in the Tour is absurd. I think this ultimatum is something he knows Astana won't accept; thus allowing him out of his contract and free to ride with Valverde, an alleged doper I'm sure he wouldn't mind riding with.

 

[ggusta]

Not for a single person's post.

I am not a total fan of the "real" Hog, but you have sense that there is always some half truth to things people say. I am starting to sense that Alberto is focused solely on himself and driven by money. Sounds like he is going to get 4 million euros and wants a clause stating that Vinokirov is riding the Giro not the Tour

If my earnings potential peaked in the next 12-24 months before aged 30, I'd be pretty focused on myself and maxing out my earnings too. Kind of weird that he gets held to a higher standard guessing from your post.

His earnings in 4 or 5 years is incalculable. At the ripe old age of 32. He could earn millions or near zero. His actions seem rational to me.

 

[UpTheRoad]

He is becoming what everybody seems to hate about Lance, but they fail to realize it because of his current ability and potential. I accept the fact that he wants to be compensated for his recent palmares; he deserves it, but to propose the clause that Vino not ride in the Tour is absurd. I think this ultimatum is something he knows Astana won't accept; thus allowing him out of his contract and free to ride with Valverde, an alleged doper I'm sure he wouldn't mind riding with.

Look at it from the cycling point of view and from Contador's perspective. Here is a guy who is head and shoulders above the rest and who just went through a difficult time because his team would not let him ride free and as a protected leader.

Astana rode the last TdF so defensively and with every intention of racing for Lance first and foremost. The shenanigans in the hotel and in the press/twitter just made the situation that much worse.

Now it's out with the old and in with the new Astana. Contador looks at his prospects and sees the same garbage. There is no guarantee that he will have fully protected status at Astana. There is no guarantee that he will have much input in the team makeup for the TdF.

I am not naive enough to think that money is not an factor, especially when it is Astana he's dealing with. But, from a racing standpoint Contador needs to get out. He is the premier road racer in the world today and he still cannot get full backing. In both cases it appears due to special circumstances and he seems to have not been the cause of the grief. LA returning and now Vino returning to a Kazakh team was not and is not good at all for him.

 

[Oldman]

Look at it from the cycling point of view and from Contador's perspective. Here is a guy who is head and shoulders above the rest and who just went through a difficult time because his team would not let him ride free and as a protected leader.

Astana rode the last TdF so defensively and with every intention of racing for Lance first and foremost. The shenanigans in the hotel and in the press/twitter just made the situation that much worse.

Now it's out with the old and in with the new Astana. Contador looks at his prospects and sees the same garbage. There is no guarantee that he will have fully protected status at Astana. There is no guarantee that he will have much input in the team makeup for the TdF.

I am not naive enough to think that money is not an factor, especially when it is Astana he's dealing with. But, from a racing standpoint Contador needs to get out. He is the premier road racer in the world today and he still cannot get full backing. In both cases it appears due to special circumstances and he seems to have not been the cause of the grief. LA returning and now Vino returning to a Kazakh team was not and is not good at all for him.

All of that plus the very strong likelihood there will be a positive that would exclude Astana from a GT. AC gets his ability to move on demand. Hell, he could spike someone's Koolaid if he thought he could get more elsewhere with no consequences. Smart move if he can get that andsome guaranteed front money.

 

[hfer07]

He is becoming what everybody seems to hate about Lance, but they fail to realize it because of his current ability and potential. I accept the fact that he wants to be compensated for his recent palmares; he deserves it, but to propose the clause that Vino not ride in the Tour is absurd. I think this ultimatum is something he knows Astana won't accept; thus allowing him out of his contract and free to ride with Valverde, an alleged doper I'm sure he wouldn't mind riding with.

If Astana is seeking TDF participation, Alberto knows that Vino is a huge liability to receive an invitation to it, and considering that the team was not allowed to ride in 08 because of his blood doping, I find it completely reasonable to request those guaranties. In regards to the money issue, I think it is very smart move, not only to market himself better, but also to compromise the team in how serious they are to keep him around and most importantly, to consolidate him once for all as the absolute Leader.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

If Astana is seeking TDF participation, Alberto knows that Vino is a huge liability to receive an invitation to it, and considering that the team was not allowed to ride in 08 because of his blood doping, I find it completely reasonable to request those guaranties. In regards to the money issue, I think it is very smart move, not only to market himself better, but also to compromise the team in how serious they are to keep him around and most importantly, to consolidate him once for all as the absolute Leader.

I understand what you're saying, but I perceive this as Contador being afraid of Vino as a competitor, which is understandable considering it happened with Lance this past year and the fact that Astana was Vino's team from the get go, or should I say his "baby."

If this is a tactic to force himself out, I don't blame him. He's the strongest rider in the world and deserves his own team. He just does things that rub me the wrong way; for instance, I don't like that he mentioned Vino by name. I would have phrased that demand differently: something like, "If recent transgressions would prevent Astana from participation in the Tour, then I may be immediately released from my contract and free to join another team to assure my participation as defending champion."

In regards to his positve test demands, I agree with him entirely and would probably ask the same thing myself.

 

[racerralph]

As a fan of AC I must admit that this whole fiasco has taken way too long to resolve. But if we dare look at the surrounding circumstances, at this point maybe he SHOULD stick with Astana for the last year of his contract. Especially if he gets what it seems he wants. After seeking to have a stringent doping protocol put into effect in the team, He wants the right to dissolve his contract with the team, should ONE doping infraction occur, during the year.(This should satisfy a lot of suspicious people out there)
And supposedly, he wants it in writing that Vino will only be able to ride the Giro and NOT the TdF! Man, if he gets that done, he's shown JB some real stuff!
But all that aside, let's also look at the possibilities of him moving. Wiggo is still at Garmin, and looks like he's not going to Sky, so there might be problems with a move to that team, although I originally loved that possibility.Then there's the move to Caisse D'Epargne. Despite Valverde stating that he has no problem riding with AC, there could be problems all over again, with those two prominent riders on the one team.(And too bad too, because they have put a pretty serious team together for next year) And BTW, is this Valv case EVER going to get resolved????
Which brings me to the final consideration. All of this devolved so late in the season, that it severely compromised AC's position, in almost every way
possible. Almost all moves have transpired and teams have solidified their squads, so a lot less opportunities are available, than otherwise might have been possible. (Could JB have had that in mind when he left his final departure maneuvers so late in the season?)
But then a move next year would allow him to start plans for relocation much earlier, and allow all the salivating teams to get their best plans together, and put out their best offers. I know next year is a big one, because I'm sure he wants to shut LA down, for good. But he is young and still has a whole career ahead of him. Personally, I wish he'd have taken a more aggressive position with Astana, and left the team once the UCI told him that the contract was voided. But he is a bike racer, not a lawyer, and in this case, it seems that things are just going to drag on dismally, like almost everything else does, in this sport.

 

[Publicus]

I understand what you're saying, but I perceive this as Contador being afraid of Vino as a competitor, which is understandable considering it happened with Lance this past year and the fact that Astana was Vino's team from the get go, or should I say his "baby."

If this is a tactic to force himself out, I don't blame him. He's the strongest rider in the world and deserves his own team. He just does things that rub me the wrong way; for instance, I don't like that he mentioned Vino by name. I would have phrased that demand differently: something like, "If recent transgressions would prevent Astana from participation in the Tour, then I may be immediately released from my contract and free to join another team to assure my participation as defending champion."

In regards to his positve test demands, I agree with him entirely and would probably ask the same thing myself.

He's not afraid of Vino. He's been through the situation last year with Armstrong and he wants to prevent any similar problems this year. Vino, g-d loving, is a racer first, and teammate second. It's always been his style. So I could certainly see Vino taking a flyer on a stage and blowing himself up and being useless to the team when it really counts. Or, I could see Astana not getting invited because of Vino's two positives. That's a political issue that cost AC the chance to defend his title in 2007. And nothing, absolutely NOTHING, prevents ASO from doing it again. All in all, it makes sense to me.

He's trying to make the most out of a fuked up situation. Lemonade out of lemons.

 

[Publicus]

As a fan of AC I must admit that this whole fiasco has taken way too long to resolve. But if we dare look at the surrounding circumstances, at this point maybe he SHOULD stick with Astana for the last year of his contract. Especially if he gets what it seems he wants. After seeking to have a stringent doping protocol put into effect in the team, He wants the right to dissolve his contract with the team, should ONE doping infraction occur, during the year.(This should satisfy a lot of suspicious people out there)
And supposedly, he wants it in writing that Vino will only be able to ride the Giro and NOT the TdF! Man, if he gets that done, he's shown JB some real stuff!
But all that aside, let's also look at the possibilities of him moving. Wiggo is still at Garmin, and looks like he's not going to Sky, so there might be problems with a move to that team, although I originally loved that possibility.Then there's the move to Caisse D'Epargne. Despite Valverde stating that he has no problem riding with AC, there could be problems all over again, with those two prominent riders on the one team.(And too bad too, because they have put a pretty serious team together for next year) And BTW, is this Valv case EVER going to get resolved????
Which brings me to the final consideration. All of this devolved so late in the season, that it severely compromised AC's position, in almost every way
possible. Almost all moves have transpired and teams have solidified their squads, so a lot less opportunities are available, than otherwise might have been possible. (Could JB have had that in mind when he left his final departure maneuvers so late in the season?)
But then a move next year would allow him to start plans for relocation much earlier, and allow all the salivating teams to get their best plans together, and put out their best offers. I know next year is a big one, because I'm sure he wants to shut LA down, for good. But he is young and still has a whole career ahead of him. Personally, I wish he'd have taken a more aggressive position with Astana, and left the team once the UCI told him that the contract was voided. But he is a bike racer, not a lawyer, and in this case, it seems that things are just going to drag on dismally, like almost everything else does, in this sport.

All good points, but I think the ambiguity with the UCI regulations is what is keeping him there. As for what happens next year, I think he's trying to take the bull by the horns and control as much of his future as possible.

 

[lagartija]

He is becoming what everybody seems to hate about Lance, but they fail to realize it because of his current ability and potential. I accept the fact that he wants to be compensated for his recent palmares; he deserves it, but to propose the clause that Vino not ride in the Tour is absurd. I think this ultimatum is something he knows Astana won't accept; thus allowing him out of his contract and free to ride with Valverde, an alleged doper I'm sure he wouldn't mind riding with.

wow thats hilarious.....an alleged doper , hahah ,........ as opposed to riding with a convicted doper , he is trying not to ride with due to leadership concerns he may be having ......did you watch the TDF in 2009? and as far as compensation is concerned it looks like about 4 teams are willing to pay in the area of 4 mill euro......but you think thats a bit steep for a 4 time grand tour winner at the age of 26 , no rosey colored glasses hear.........

 

[lagartija]

All good points, but I think the ambiguity with the UCI regulations is what is keeping him there. As for what happens next year, I think he's trying to take the bull by the horns and control as much of his future as possible.

exactly.........thanks....

 

[python]

@ publicus
i can't claim i know how vino vs contador would develop (in the tour) but i am not as skeptical as you about it. agree, conta deserves absolute and unchallenged leadership. i think vino is his best ally on new astana. vino is an attacking rider but he was also riding along Ulle for years and they were best buds. history shows that conta's biggest threat may come from a doping case associated with one of his compatriots.

 

[Publicus]

@ publicus
i can't claim i know how vino vs contador would develop (in the tour) but i am not as skeptical as you about it. agree, conta deserves absolute and unchallenged leadership. i think vino is his best ally on new astana. vino is an attacking rider but he was also riding along Ulle for years and they were best buds. history shows that conta's biggest threat may come from a doping case associated with one of his compatriots.

I'm not skeptical at all, but apparently AC is. I agree with you that Vino could be useful in the TdF. Especially on some of the mountain stages with a descent to the finish. But I think AC's reaction is logical in light of what happened this past year. In short, he doesn't want a repeat of last year when the guy who had built the infrastructure of 2008-09 Astana (Lance) returned and acted like he owned the place, to be repeated in 2010 Astana with the return of the guy who built the original Astana coming back and acting like he owns the place.

Frankly none of this can possibly help with the team dynamics. Astana really should give him his out so that they can sign a rider that wants to ride for them and AC can sign for a team that he wants to ride with.

 

[bianchigirl]

Contador wants Basso - and he seems to be getting what he wants. At least the Kazakhs are smart enough to see exactly what they have and want to keep him.

 

[avanti]

I can see that AC might want to ride for a team other than Astana but he signed a contract.

Apparently his management/legal team were not smart enough to insert a buy-out clause.

I'm also surprised that a smart lawyer could not find a way out for AC from his Astana contract.

Hopefully other pro-riders will learn from this and adjust their new contracts accordingly.

 

[Publicus]

I can see that AC might want to ride for a team other than Astana but he signed a contract.

Apparently his management/legal team were not smart enough to insert a buy-out clause.

I'm also surprised that a smart lawyer could not find a way out for AC from his Astana contract.

Hopefully other pro-riders will learn from this and adjust their new contracts accordingly.

I think AC has made the decision of not losing another year at the TdF a priority, hence no fight to get out of his contract since any verdict in his favor would be coupled with an appeal. And what team would sign him until he's actually free and clear of Astana? None I would imagine.

And you have to remember that it is easy to say insert clause (a), but whether or not the other party agrees is a different matter. Plus, my guess (it is only a guess), that AC trusted that JB would be around for the three year term (seems JB's contract ran for the exact same term). Probably the better out would have been if JB or his management comment no longer ran the team. But hindsight, as they say, is 20/20.