Contador vs. Froome

[Blanco]

But both need the one day race creds that makes the really greats. Bobet 3 TdF, RRWC, PR, RVV, MSR, GDL...better.

While i agree that their palmares don't match up to the historic greats in one day races, which top GC rider has since Hinault? Lemond didn't have great one day record (outside of WC), Indurain didn't, LA didn't. People are too specialised now, you can't be the best at everything like riders used to be.

At present i'd say to even discuss Froome having better record is ludicrous. That being said, if he wins Vuelta then TDF in 2018 i'd say he just shades it (assuming you think Contador has 7, not 9 Grand Tour victories. 5 TDF and 1 Veulta does not top 3,3,3 in my opinion).

Valverde? Nibali?

Lemond was excellent one day racer, he has podiums in 3 Monuments, Top 10's in all five, and you can't ignore biggest of the one-day races when we talk about one-day racing!!! Armstrong was very good too, even though he didn't rode classics in latter part of his career. Indurain, compared to Contador and Froome, was also good. He has 3 medals at the WC, San Sebastian win, and couple of Top 10 places, and all that in spite the fact that he didn't rode that races much frequently.

Nibali is the most complete GC rider still racing, apart from winning all three GTs he has podiums in three different monuments including one win plus a fourth place in Worlds RR and other one-day races wins and good placements. I'd say Valverde is the most complete classics rider with four monuments, numerous one-day races wins, an impossible number of podiums in Worlds RR, one GT and podiums in all three. Froome and Contador are specialized stage races/GT riders

Agree on that. My post was response to claim that riders are too specialized and you can't be great in both GT's and one day races. You can, but you need much wider skill set, you need to sacrifice possible chances in some races in order to have a chance in others, in other words you need a special kind of rider for that. And there aren't many of them around.

 

[Durden93]

I don't quite understand the relevance of Valverde, Nibali, Lemond, and their one day records in this discussion. The OP mentioned Froome Vs Contador in Grand Tours. Let's not hijack this thread, please.

 

[Haddock]

If the question is who has a better record, I think for now, the edge goes to Contador. But if the question is, who is the better/stronger rider, then the answer is Froome. Contador was at his best price to his ban and since his ban, has not performed at the same level.

 

[movingtarget]

Contador has won across all three grand tours but the four Tour wins for Froome is mighty impressive plus a second, plus three podiums in the Vuelta. If Froome had also won a Giro I would probably give the verdict to him but I slightly favour Contador even though the 2011-2017 Tour record without a podium is pretty empty looking.

 

[Pennino]

Yeah, nowadays cycling is way to specialized. Maybe because of that reason one has to admire G. Thomas, the ultimate allrounder. The WT is pretty much cause of this, with al the top tier teams having to compete in all top tier races, so they make rosters perfecty compatible to each type of race.

Back in the day you just had an Italian peloton, a French one, a Spanish one, and some international teams that competed a bit everywhere. The bigger teams competed also in most of the biggest races ovviously. But this era is rather ***. 80% of the WT races could have a much more interesting field if it wasn't for those silly rules.

 

[Singer01]

But both need the one day race creds that makes the really greats. Bobet 3 TdF, RRWC, PR, RVV, MSR, GDL...better.

While i agree that their palmares don't match up to the historic greats in one day races, which top GC rider has since Hinault? Lemond didn't have great one day record (outside of WC), Indurain didn't, LA didn't. People are too specialised now, you can't be the best at everything like riders used to be.

At present i'd say to even discuss Froome having better record is ludicrous. That being said, if he wins Vuelta then TDF in 2018 i'd say he just shades it (assuming you think Contador has 7, not 9 Grand Tour victories. 5 TDF and 1 Veulta does not top 3,3,3 in my opinion).

Valverde? Nibali?

Lemond was excellent one day racer, he has podiums in 3 Monuments, Top 10's in all five, and you can't ignore biggest of the one-day races when we talk about one-day racing!!! Armstrong was very good too, even though he didn't rode classics in latter part of his career. Indurain, compared to Contador and Froome, was also good. He has 3 medals at the WC, San Sebastian win, and couple of Top 10 places, and all that in spite the fact that he didn't rode that races much frequently.

Nibali is the most complete GC rider still racing, apart from winning all three GTs he has podiums in three different monuments including one win plus a fourth place in Worlds RR and other one-day races wins and good placements. I'd say Valverde is the most complete classics rider with four monuments, numerous one-day races wins, an impossible number of podiums in Worlds RR, one GT and podiums in all three. Froome and Contador are specialized stage races/GT riders

Nibali is a top stage racer who can compete in one day races, Valverde the opposite, i thought we were talking about people who were top of the tree at both. Merckx, Hinault, Coppi, Bartali etc, that level of palmares.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

Contador has won across all three grand tours but the four Tour wins for Froome is mighty impressive plus a second, plus three podiums in the Vuelta. If Froome had also won a Giro I would probably give the verdict to him but I slightly favour Contador even though the 2011-2017 Tour record without a podium is pretty empty looking.

With this change of era it has no sense to put victories from the dark era. We cant talk about Lance as better than Evans acording his palmares...

 

[mrhender]

Taxus, I think its unfair that you keep hinting to the era stuff like this here, as you know people cant respond.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Not to mention, according to Taxus's own blog post that was just posted, CF's teammates were booted for clinic stuff during his formative years. Not exactly a split in eras on a dark/clean line, as he likes to claim.

 

[Tonton]

Mod hat on: Let's not go down that road please. We all know the rules .

Mod hat off: what bothers me with this thread is the "my Dad beats your Dad" undertone. Comparing records is a game often played on forums, i.e. a RVV=2 KBK, but that's all subjective. Also, there's the result, but how about the quality of the field and the manner?

The best Contador was impressive, and he gained a lot of followers worldwide because of his aggressive style. The best Froome (2013 IMO) was also very impressive. For me (my opinion, right or wrong), the problem for Froome is that a lot of credit can go to his team, and he has no legendary moment. The ugliest riding style of any GT winner ever. The only time I rode my bike and pictured myself as Dawg was when I crossed my chain, half destroyed my derailler, broke seven spokes, and rode home on a small gear, high cadence, looking like a buffoon . But Uphill, off the saddle and going hard, I daydream, and when it's not my guy Tibopino, it's Contador.

Fans of each rider will find a way to articulate a narrative.

If record is all, Froome may soon get the edge. A Vuelta, one more Tour should get him there.

 

[KyoGrey]

What matters here is the legacy you leave behind.

Numbers are numbers. Gotti won more Giros than Pantani. Virenque more mountain jerseys than Bahamontes.

But whenever I dream cycling, I dream Pantani, Bahamontes...or Contador.

 

[KyoGrey]

At least Armstrong was charismatic in its own sinister and psychopathic way.

Froome's dominante of the Tour is pretty grey and unlegendary. He wont have my hate, not my love.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Mod hat on: Let's not go down that road please. We all know the rules .

Mod hat off: what bothers me with this thread is the "my Dad beats your Dad" undertone. Comparing records is a game often played on forums, i.e. a RVV=2 KBK, but that's all subjective. Also, there's the result, but how about the quality of the field and the manner?

The best Contador was impressive, and he gained a lot of followers worldwide because of his aggressive style. The best Froome (2013 IMO) was also very impressive. For me (my opinion, right or wrong), the problem for Froome is that a lot of credit can go to his team, and he has no legendary moment. The ugliest riding style of any GT winner ever. The only time I rode my bike and pictured myself as Dawg was when I crossed my chain, half destroyed my derailler, broke seven spokes, and rode home on a small gear, high cadence, looking like a buffoon . But Uphill, off the saddle and going hard, I daydream, and when it's not my guy Tibopino, it's Contador.

Fans of each rider will find a way to articulate a narrative.

If record is all, Froome may soon get the edge. A Vuelta, one more Tour should get him there.

It used to be way worse when it was AC vs Andy. I much prefer this kinder gentler time we live in.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

What matters here is the legacy you leave behind.

Numbers are numbers. Gotti won more Giros than Pantani. Virenque more mountain jerseys than Bahamontes.

But whenever I dream cycling, I dream Pantani, Bahamontes...or Contador.

And Cavendish more stage wins in TdF than anyone apart from the best rider in history.

 

[dastott]

I like a smooth riding style as much as anyone (Gianni Bugno) but think Froome is somewhat unfairly maligned, especially compared to latter day Contador. Alberto's dancing on the pedals has looked pretty ungainly the last few years, grinding too big a gear. Ironically, Froome looks pretty decent out of the saddle. Froome is also more solid on a TT bike too, although he is no Wiggins in this respect.

 

[Jspear]

I like a smooth riding style as much as anyone (Gianni Bugno) but think Froome is somewhat unfairly maligned, especially compared to latter day Contador. Alberto's dancing on the pedals has looked pretty ungainly the last few years, grinding too big a gear. Ironically, Froome looks pretty decent out of the saddle. Froome is also more solid on a TT bike too, although he is no Wiggins in this respect.

Lol no he doesn't. He looks very awkward standing up. But you're right about AC. He doesn't look so graceful now compared to 10 years ago....he still looks way better than Froome.

But none of that matters when comparing their actual accomplishments.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

At least Armstrong was charismatic in its own sinister and psychopathic way.

Froome's dominante of the Tour is pretty grey and unlegendary. He wont have my hate, not my love.

Actually Armstrong's Tour podcast was quite good. Sooner or later we have to move on otherwise we all become angry old people. Does the world need more of those ? Froome's result sheet is not unlegendary and you could argue that Indurain's five Tour wins were even less unlegendary unless you love TTs and nothing else.

 

[dastott]

Re: Re:

At least Armstrong was charismatic in its own sinister and psychopathic way.

Froome's dominante of the Tour is pretty grey and unlegendary. He wont have my hate, not my love.

Actually Armstrong's Tour podcast was quite good. Sooner or later we have to move on otherwise we all become angry old people. Does the world need more of those ? Froome's result sheet is not unlegendary and you could argue that Indurain's five Tour wins were even less unlegendary unless you love TTs and nothing else.

Although it's sacrilege, it's doubtful Indurain could have won 5 Tours Froome has podiumed given the various parcours. 2012 and 2016 most definitely, 2013 quite possibly but 2015 and 2017?

 

[Angliru]

Re:

What matters here is the legacy you leave behind.

Numbers are numbers. Gotti won more Giros than Pantani. Virenque more mountain jerseys than Bahamontes.

But whenever I dream cycling, I dream Pantani, Bahamontes...or Contador.

This is me also.

Strangely in all this talk of riders climbing style Ivan Gotti is who came to mind when thinking of someone with a climbing style that rivaled Froome's. The only good thing about watching Gotti was that he was riding a Cannondale at the time of his biggest success.

 

[Angliru]

I like a smooth riding style as much as anyone (Gianni Bugno) but think Froome is somewhat unfairly maligned, especially compared to latter day Contador. Alberto's dancing on the pedals has looked pretty ungainly the last few years, grinding too big a gear. Ironically, Froome looks pretty decent out of the saddle. Froome is also more solid on a TT bike too, although he is no Wiggins in this respect.

It's quite easy to cherry pick a riders form during their worst time and use that. Should we look at the zig-zag climbing technique of Froome's Barloworld days?

His out of the saddle style is all elbows and knees.

 

[Red Rick]

for zigzagging we don"t have to look further than peyragudes>

and frOome looks horrible standing on the pedals

 

[KyoGrey]

Re: Re:

At least Armstrong was charismatic in its own sinister and psychopathic way.

Froome's dominante of the Tour is pretty grey and unlegendary. He wont have my hate, not my love.

Actually Armstrong's Tour podcast was quite good. Sooner or later we have to move on otherwise we all become angry old people. Does the world need more of those ? Froome's result sheet is not unlegendary and you could argue that Indurain's five Tour wins were even less unlegendary unless you love TTs and nothing else.

...Indurain was espectacular also in the mountains and hilly Stages, not TTs and nothing else.

Wake me up the day Froome destroys in first person the whole field with a long Range attack in an Ardenne type stage in the Tour

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

At least Armstrong was charismatic in its own sinister and psychopathic way.

Froome's dominante of the Tour is pretty grey and unlegendary. He wont have my hate, not my love.

Actually Armstrong's Tour podcast was quite good. Sooner or later we have to move on otherwise we all become angry old people. Does the world need more of those ? Froome's result sheet is not unlegendary and you could argue that Indurain's five Tour wins were even less unlegendary unless you love TTs and nothing else.

I think you confused Big Mig with Wiggins. Miguelon was no stranger for attacks, and he wasn't a boring rider by any means.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

At least Armstrong was charismatic in its own sinister and psychopathic way.

Froome's dominante of the Tour is pretty grey and unlegendary. He wont have my hate, not my love.

Actually Armstrong's Tour podcast was quite good. Sooner or later we have to move on otherwise we all become angry old people. Does the world need more of those ? Froome's result sheet is not unlegendary and you could argue that Indurain's five Tour wins were even less unlegendary unless you love TTs and nothing else.

I agree with you and see posts that disagree...they must not have been watching the TdF in BigMig's era. The most boring ones with regards to suspense. He would kill everybody in the ITT and had no opposition to speak off, except Rominger. The rest was racing for spots and stage wins. Those TdF would drive you nuts today. Luxembourg ITT, stage 8 I believe, or 9, game over. Not to say that he couldn't climb, but borefest-wise, Indurain's wins were the...boringest .

 

[bambino]

This thread was opened to discuss achievements of two great riders. In the meanwhile it has been transformed to riding style debate (mainly Berto fans). While I still believe 7 GT's beats 4, I find it extremely irritating that ones victories are questinoned based on how he looks on the bike or the way the victories have been accomplished.

It is a sport and whoever is the best at the given time has won. That is their job and the way they are measured. The sport moves on and will find different ways to win the races. I'm absolutely sure in 10 years we all laugh the "old style" way of Sky train used to win the GT's as someone has found better way to do it. That's called evolution.