Indurain - he didn't show off in the mountains because he didn't have to, he knew he could take things easy and just hammer it in the TT's. When he needed to he could drop pretty much anyone in the mountains on power alone, so he didn't have the jump of Contador? so what, look at Hautacam 94 or La Plagne in 95 where he just rode away from everyone without needing to jump. Contador gains seconds with his mountain jumps whereas Indurain would gain minutes, sure he let people win stages but that was political as much as anything. So for me its Indurain.
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laziali said:
It's not a matter of being clean. It's a matter of how much doping riders can get away with. The current rules limit the amount of doping that can be done compared to Indurain's time. The situation has even changed from just a few years ago. The use of chaperones, as long as the rider is not given special treatment like Armstrong was in 2009--should prevent riders from doing what was standard after the 1997 hematocrit limit, which was to use the time between notification of a test and the test itself to manipulate HCT downward. Then there is the passport, better testing for more substances, etc. Riders cannot even use the old mainstay of testosterone any more without a lot of risk.
It is no accident that Indurain retired on the eve of the 50% rule coming into effect. You cannot compare Contador's performance in today's environment with Indurain's performance in the early to mid-90's. Allow Contador to race at 60% HCT like the contenders did in the early and mid 90's and we would see something spectacular.
BroDeal said:
Don't think so. I recall it was because he got smashed back into 11th place at the 96 Tour by Mr EPO, the Eagle from Herning. Was there and saw it with my own eyes - the fight had gone out of Big Mig and he looked like a man with no idea what to do. I remember feeling genuinely gutted that this great champion could look so vulnerable and helpless.
I think he rode on until part way through the Vuelta later that year at the insistence of Echavarri and Banesto, before pulling stumps with a hometown crit "win" but happy to stand corrected on the crit bit.
laziali said:
Like Indurain, an experiment of Dr. Conconi, was using any less EPO than Riis, Ullrich, Rominger, Zulle, Chiappucci, Bugno, and everyone else. Putting four minutes into all contenders except for Armand de las Cuevas, who lost three minutes, in a single ITT was an unmistakable clue. Watching Lemond drop four minutes was a total farce.
laziali said:
Riis nickname, given to him by Festina, was Mr 60%, after he won in 1996, over Virenque. Think again about the bold bit and the context it was placed in.
laziali said:
You've missed the insight the clinic gives. Bigger guy, more muscle mass, thus it is harder to get oxygen to the fibres in his legs. Take him down to a limited hematocrit level, no epo and just the blood cell boost, Big Mig is the biggest loser. Think of it this way. Does Cancellara the best climber on his team? He is solid, but he can't back up for 3 weeks like the Schlecks can. Spartacus is essentially Big Mig, but in the post 2000 medicinal world. Get the picture? Remove the drugs and put AC against Big Mig these days,prospects are the big guy might not even top 10. Big Mig was also very sick during the first half of the Tour in 1996. Massive breathing difficulties, which if you know what his lung capacity was coupled with his physique, it is no surprise he lost time.
sadfitty said:
That was truly impressive. Mig didn't get out of the saddle once and was smooth on the spin. Seemed he got faster as it got steeper. Everything before the climb must have been a "warm up."
Big Mig would come out on top. The multiple minutes he would gain in TT's would put him in a great spot to mark Alberto wheel and sit on for dear life.
sadfitty said:
Great example of how good indurain was.. Hes not just dropping riders, hes probably dropping about 4kg of PED's with them.. mapai, festina, they where all in there..
racing has changed, and its very hard to compare.. but i dont think AC is anywhere close to indurain.. maybe thats just romantisism, but hes miles behind. maybe one day
nice video in the related videos to that one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmR9k8UAohs
it was 1994 and still a young lance, but he was still a damn good tt'er... indurain smokes him..
Don't forget Gewiss either! I think the most beautiful aspect of that clip is Indurain's attitude. Doesn't ask anyone for help, doesn't look around and doesn't try to jump away to prevent anyone from going with him. He just rides at a steady pace, looks calm and collected and drops everyone.
I'm thinking I'd go with Contador.
It's never easy to compare riders across generations... but in last year's Tour, Contador largely out TT'd Cancellera... and he's the best in that discipline there is right now. While Mig would gain some time... it wouldn't be huge amounts I think.
It's never easy to compare riders across generations... but in last year's Tour, Contador largely out TT'd Cancellera... and he's the best in that discipline there is right now. While Mig would gain some time... it wouldn't be huge amounts I think.
dimspace said:
Fixed it for you.
Armstrong was never a good TTer until Dr. Ferrari fixed him up.
dimspace said:
This to me is one of the beautiful parts of cycling. They get greater as time goes by.
15 years from now, what will they be saying about Contador!?
Given that stretch of time, I think even LA will be looked at more objectively as a pretty good rider.
BroDeal said:
oh theres no doubt indurain like contador now was well in the clutches of enhancement, but he rode some of the heaviest dopers in cycling off his wheel. I think if you gave some of the current crop what the mapie guys where on, contador would struggle
dimspace said:
it's pretty tough to handicap a racer based on the quality and quantity of doping of the racer and his competitors.
Galic Ho said:
Insight? For those who can't be bothered trawling through Galic Ho's long and angry posts, here is a summary (the theme is always the same) ...
"hay guyz, my name's Galic Ho and, like, I'm, like, studying pre-med, and so, like, I just know SO much about doping in that Euro sport, coz you know, I'm pre-med and all that so, like I know everything there is to know about, y'know, like, doping an' that. Plus, like last year when I wuz racin' in Cat 4 I likely totally, like, stuffed a caffeine tablet up my a$$, and like, you know I was like absolutely like totally flying, so like you know, coz I'm a racer and I've tried doping an' all, you know. An' like I might even be moving up to Cat 3 where it's like SO totally hardcore, so really I know all about doping. Plus, like I've been a y'know member of this board for like totally forever, and like I've got 6 billion posts or something, so like, I totally know more than anyone else ...[etc ad nauseum]"
ravens said:This to me is one of the beautiful parts of cycling. They get greater as time goes by.
15 years from now, what will they be saying about Contador!?
Given that stretch of time, I think even LA will be looked at more objectively as a pretty good rider.
He already is looked at as a very good rider for the ones that actually do look at it objectively, winning 7 tours and the way he did it isn't given for an average cyclist... The AC fanboys just don't look at it that way atm though
.kurtinsc said:
How in the world did he out TT Cancellara? Yes AC is a good TT'er, but on any piece of the course where you could put down your real TT skills, he lost MASSIVE time to Cancellara... Not trying to sound rude, but the statement would upset Cancellara himself also very much.
laziali said:
What happened to you? Someone $hit on your toast? Racing Cat 3 or 4. Hahahaha. Not even close. Angry, here is angry you supercilious thunderc%$t. Check my language in future, whipe the snivels and snot from your nose and get over yourself. It is a forum. If you don't like replies addressing your multiple posts that neglect prior discussions, then go somewhere else. It is never personal unless I start using fierce, savage and derogatory words. Like thunder****. 6 billion posts! Exaggeration one of your strong points? There are forumists here who have 4, 5, 6 times my volume in posts. have you figured out why I use question marks frequently in responses to other posters? I am inquiring and asking whether others have thought of my points and ideas and placed them in context with their own. Or perhaps you missed proper use of punctuation whilst at school?
As for using doping products. I rarely get sick. I do not need PEDs in any shape or form. Plus I don't hate myself enough to abuse my beliefs and body, cheat and take a shortcut.
Lifeshape said:
...and bears out how generational comparisons can be tough. Mig is still pretty meaty in this race. Again, he could have shed some pounds if that was necessary to compete against a strong climber if that had been necessary. This climb was also largely a 4-5% power climb from the look of it. Perfectly suited for him.
It was gratifying seeing Riis go out the back end that fast...must've only been Senor 59.5 on that day.
I always felt that the 1996 Tour was one of the most fascinating. Not only because in retrospect everyone was doped out of their mind, with Riis at the top of the heap, but also with the drama that Mig lost. Not just losing, but getting completely dropped several times, even losing the TT's. Rotten weather, cold, weaker team, age, and he really just didn't have it. It was a sight to see.
All these years later part of me looks at Mig's demise as a strange form of justice in that he was (obviously) doped, and it was doping that caused LeMond to be humiliated out of the sport in 1991. And five short years later the same happened to Indurain.
All these years later part of me looks at Mig's demise as a strange form of justice in that he was (obviously) doped, and it was doping that caused LeMond to be humiliated out of the sport in 1991. And five short years later the same happened to Indurain.
Alpe d'Huez said:
And now it's time for the yellow rose of texas to wither away. Hopefully someone with some charisma will emerge this year.
I dont really remember indurain so well... first tdf i watched he was winning but my memory is not great... But he seems like a really great fellow.. Hats off to him. like srsly he sounds like a cool guy..
I think contador would win.... very close but I think he'd do it.
I think contador would win.... very close but I think he'd do it.
I should clarify that doping or no doping, I think Mig was a great champion. I didn't like the way he rarely attacked in the mountains and was little bland, but a very polite man who let his winning talk for him.
Ask me in five years if I think Contador equals Mig. For now the answer is no.
Ask me in five years if I think Contador equals Mig. For now the answer is no.
sadfitty said:
You beat me to it. I was looking for that video to post.
People underestimate Indurains climbing. The fact is, at his best, he did just did what he had to do on the climbs. No reason things would be any different if he was against Contador.
I'm sorry to say that I never saw Indurain at any point of his career, but I'm also confident that none of us has seen Contador in his prime. That dude that won the Tour seven times was older when he won his first than Contador will be at the 2010 race. He's barely scratched the surface of his potential. Give him five years with strong teams and only the normal challenges, and then check his palmares. I don't know how he'll compare to Indurain even then, but I think he'll be head and shoulders above the 2009 version of himself.
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