Coyle's new stance on Lance

[Krebs cycle]

Artificial erythrocythemia causes an increase in gross mechanical efficiency. It's unequivocal:

Live high:train low increases muscle buffer capacity and submaximal cycling efficiency

Acta Physiologica Scandinavica

Volume 173, Issue 3, pages 275–286, November 2001

John Swanson

That study was about altitude acclimatisation. Three weeks of hypoxia is probably what improved the efficiency. There was no blood doping in that study and there was no increase in red cell mass either

 

[DirtyWorks]

EVEN IF the recorded increase in LA's mechanical efficiency wasn't directly due to blood boosting, but rather 'chronic training' ... the blood boosting surely enabled him to train much harder than he otherwise would have been able to do. Right?

Well, we don't know what drugs he was running, so it's impossible to know unless he or Ferrari broke it all down in a public document. That's not going to happen.

The HGH/IGF combination absolutely allows an athlete to train much harder by reducing recovery time. Beyond that now well-worn combination that doesn't test positive it would depend on what drugs were used and enough experimentation to get maximum benefit.

If you are at all interested in the topic, one can spend hours going through body building forums. There are a few endurance athletes/coaches that post, and the depth of knowledge is frankly amazing.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...If it's rigorous and repeatable it's valid, even if written by a crook.

You insist on pretending the subject was clean, or somehow clean-enough to make it valid science. The measurements mean nothing because the fundamental premise is false. The measurements were made on non-human performance.

On top of the false premise, how could the test be repeated?

Ok Wonderboy, we need to time the next tests to the same phase of your doping cycle you were in the first time. What's that? You are on new dope? Ok, well then can we schedule a similar test during a similar phase? What's that? It's different now? Well, then let's just do this thing whenever and hope for the best...

That's some scientific process you are endorsing. Which, is why the Coyle/Armstrong work needs to become a shining example of bad science.

 

[acoggan]

So why don't you shed some light on whether it was OK to use LA's self reported body mass in the study?

Define "okay".

 

[acoggan]

You started the thread as an apologist front for your discredited friend and we're not allowing you to spin bullsh!t into silver thread, don't blame me. I don't need superior IQ points to smell what you're shoveling. That must be humiliating to an ego such as yours. If you're to inept to cite your sources, apply at McDonalds. I live in a world where clarity by source citation is essential. I am unsurprised it is less important in your kind of "research." You are digging a hole, shoveling out your minimal integrity with every stroke. Carry on, I wouldn't want to get in the way of that, it's much to fun to watch.

You're right, I shouldn't have called you stupid when it is obvious you're just deliberately being obtuse.

 

[acoggan]

Cogger,

No doubt you've got a few synapses that fire, but you are a bully with no apparent regard for what makes a valid research paper. Someone of your 'on paper' scientific prowess should be have the highest of comprehension wrt to scientific methodology and critical appraisal.

Now that it is exposed that your pal Coyle didn't even do the background work to get the actual weight(s) of Lancey to form his unscientific paper it speaks volumes of what other nonsense variables were in that sham study.

Basically fudging Lance's wt, or VO2Max ... makes the whole study useless; full stop. You do realize that don't you? Any answer other than 'yes guys Coyle's study is essentially a collection of post-it notes" discredits you to the point that I think all of your own work should be re-evaluated.

Stop making a fool of yourself. A first yr university student in basic scientific epidemiology could see through all this BS.

Why don't you do the right thing and write a LTTEditor and expose Coyle? Or are you in bed with the JAP?

http://www.the-aps.org/mm/Publications/Ethical-Policies

Why would I write a letter-to-the-editor??

Anyway, since you bring up publication ethics, you might be interested in what the Editor of JAP himself has to say:

"Neither Coyle nor Siebenmann, Robach et al appear to have breached any rules in terms of informed consent, including, for the latter authors, disclosing the eligibility risks of violating WADA rules by taking part in blood manipulations."

and

"Neither set of authors appears to have violated other ethical regulations—there are no suspicions now, nor were there at the time of publication of data/figure manipulations, IRB approval transgressions, plagiarism, and so forth that constitute the bulk of ethical problems seen by journals."

(From http://jap.physiology.org/content/early/2013/03/11/japplphysiol.00298.2013.full.pdf+html)

 

[acoggan]

From my reading, EPO develops smooth muscle - like heart muscle, and the muscles involved with blood vessels. Is it possible this has a positive effect on efficiency?

Huh. It also stimulates angiogenesis. Pretty sure that might help efficiency...

1. Heart muscle is NOT smooth muscle.

2. Angiogenesis IS the growth of new blood vessels.

3. There is no known mechanism by which the latter could influence efficiency.

 

[acoggan]

That study was about altitude acclimatisation. Three weeks of hypoxia is probably what improved the efficiency. There was no blood doping in that study and there was no increase in red cell mass either

Never send a physicist to do a physiologist's job.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Yup. Looks like I completely stuffed that one up. Re-reading the article, there was not an accompanying change in Hb mass as I thought when originally posting (hence my comment about the artificially induced erythrocythemia). In fact, there might have been but they did not measure for it.

It's possible that I confused this study with another one. If that's the case, I'll report back with a correct citation.

Otherwise - I was wrong.

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Most likely scenario: I was careless and assumed that Hb mass had risen.

I've found several supporting studies, such as: Green, H. J., et al. "Increases in submaximal cycling efficiency mediated by altitude acclimatization." Journal of Applied Physiology 89.3 (2000): 1189-1197.

Here, they did measure an Hb mass and HCT improvement.

John Swanson

 

[dopingectomy]

Yeah, this is silly. He probably will want to rely more on the argument that blood-boosting drugs/transfusions don't affect mechanical efficiency.

Most probably no effect on mechanical efficiency, or only indirectly at best. However testosterone administration, or still better testosterone + growth hormone, does strongly affect mechanical efficiency. And has long term effects.

 

[acoggan]

testosterone administration, or still better testosterone + growth hormone, does strongly affect mechanical efficiency.

I am not aware of any studies supporting your assertion.

 

[cathulu]

Coyle's study / paper in hindsight reads like a propaganda piece, a sad joke now. The "champion" Lance was in large and greatest part due to blood doping and other methods, some hereto undisclosed properly. Yet this study says it was due to increased efficiency and a reduction in body weight and fat. It is difficult to square the results and leads most minds to the conclusion the report is flawed and should be relegated to the junk pile.

Problems with report go beyond that identified, even to the cycling ergometers and calibration of same etc iirc - I am going from memory.

Coggan is trolling the boards.

"This report has identified the physiological factor that improved the most from ages 21 to 28 yr in the bicyclist who has now become the six-time consecutive Grand Champion of the Tour de France as muscular efficiency. As a result, power production when cycling at an absolute V̇o2 of 5.0 l/min increased by 8%. Another factor that allowed this individual to become Grand Champion of the Tour de France was his large reductions in body weight and body fat during the months before the race. Therefore, over the 7-yr period, he displayed a remarkable 18% improvement in steady-state power per kilogram body weight when cycling at a given V̇o2 (e.g., 5 l/min). We hypothesize that the improved muscular efficiency might reflect alterations in muscle myosin type stimulated from years of training intensely for 3–6 h on most days. It is remarkable that at age 25 yr this individual developed advanced cancer, requiring surgeries and chemotherapy, yet these events did not appear to impede his physiological maturation and athletic achievements. Clearly, this champion embodies a phenomenon of both genetic natural selection and the extreme to which the human can adapt to endurance training performed for a decade or more in a person who is truly inspired."

 

[dopingectomy]

I am not aware of any studies supporting your assertion.

See eg studies by Bhasin et al on the effects of testosterone on muscle metabolism. Training+testosterone is the key ingredient.

 

[acoggan]

See eg studies by Bhasin et al on the effects of testosterone on muscle metabolism. Training+testosterone is the key ingredient.

Thanks. However, none of the studies that turn up using the search terms "Bhasin testosterone exercise" appear to have measured efficiency. So, I'm still puzzled by your claim.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Testosterone plus low-intensity physical training in late life improves functional performance, skeletal muscle mitochondrial biogenesis, and mitochondrial quality control in male mice.

 

[acoggan]

Problems with report go beyond that identified, even to the cycling ergometers and calibration of same etc iirc - I am going from memory.

Rather than relying on your (faulty) memory, I suggest that you reread Coyle's rebuttal to these paricular criticisms:

http://jap.physiology.org/content/99/4/1630.full.pdf+html

http://jap.physiology.org/content/99/4/1628.full.pdf+html

 

[acoggan]

Testosterone plus low-intensity physical training in late life improves functional performance, skeletal muscle mitochondrial biogenesis, and mitochondrial quality control in male mice.

Lots of human work as well...but nothing re. efficiency (that I've been able to find, anyway).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Were you one of the journal approvers of Coyle original article, acoggan?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Lots of human work as well...but nothing re. efficiency (that I've been able to find, anyway).

But Coyle was only guessing as to the underlying cause of the efficiency improvement - ie muscle type conversion, for instance. He didn't actually know

1. if conversion was the cause of the efficiency increase
2. what caused the conversion
3. if that conversion even occurred in Armstrong

did he?

I did a degree, and my guess is increased mitochondria increases efficiency.

 

[dopingectomy]

Thanks. However, none of the studies that turn up using the search terms "Bhasin testosterone exercise" appear to have measured efficiency. So, I'm still puzzled by your claim.

Clinicians are not sport physiologists and do not measure "efficiency", just "performance" or "strength". The important point is that testosterone administration is known to improve mitochondrial function.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Clinicians are not sport physiologists and do not measure "efficiency", just "performance" or "strength". The important point is that testosterone administration is known to improve mitochondrial function.

Sorry if this sounds dumb, but does that mean the mitochrondria themselves function better?

 

[dopingectomy]

Testosterone plus low-intensity physical training in late life improves functional performance, skeletal muscle mitochondrial biogenesis, and mitochondrial quality control in male mice.

Actually the effects of testosterone on muscle metabolism and mitochondrial function were already known at the end of the 1960's (see eg Gillespie & Eggerton 1970). The recent work by Bhasin just elucidates the process.

 

[acoggan]

Were you one of the journal approvers of Coyle original article, acoggan?

No (as I've shared many times before).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Actually the effects of testosterone on muscle metabolism and mitochondrial function were already known at the end of the 1960's (see eg Gillespie & Eggerton 1970). The recent work by Bhasin just elucidates the process.

I struggle for searching for specific results, but off the top of your head, do you have any idea of when testosterone increasing Hgb was known?