Coyle's new stance on Lance

[acoggan]

But Coyle was only guessing as to the underlying cause of the efficiency improvement - ie muscle type conversion, for instance. He didn't actually know

1. if conversion was the cause of the efficiency increase
2. what caused the conversion
3. if that conversion even occurred in Armstrong

did he?

"Guessing"? In Armstrong's specific case, yes, since no biopsies were obtained. However, there are plenty of data (including previous papers by Coyle) clearly supporting the hypothesis.

I did a degree, and my guess is increased mitochondria increases efficiency.

Not as the term is properly used in the present context.

 

[acoggan]

Clinicians are not sport physiologists and do not measure "efficiency", just "performance" or "strength". The important point is that testosterone administration is known to improve mitochondrial function.

Then you should have said as much, rather than falsely claiming " testosterone administration, or still better testosterone + growth hormone, does strongly affect mechanical efficiency."

 

[skidmark]

Ahhh of course. Coyle uses an unverified, invented, values to support a central part of his conclusion......but it is not his fault, it is the editors. It is the fault of the fools who believed his fraud "Study"......suckers!

Hey, listen, Coyle has been edited many times. He's never failed an edit. In fact*, he's the most edited scientist in the world. Do you really think that if he was using false facts, he'd pass that many edits?

*my assumption based on his self-reported data

 

[dopingectomy]

Then you should have said as much, rather than falsely claiming " testosterone administration, or still better testosterone + growth hormone, does strongly affect mechanical efficiency."

Falsely claiming???

Testosterone administration improves mitochondrial function, VO2max, mechanical efficiency or economy or what you would like to call it...

 

[dopingectomy]

I struggle for searching for specific results, but off the top of your head, do you have any idea of when testosterone increasing Hgb was known?

as far as I know, when Ciba developed Dianabol in the 1950's

 

[acoggan]

Falsely claiming???

Testosterone administration improves mitochondrial function, VO2max, mechanical efficiency or economy or what you would like to call it...

Those are all different things...and yes, as far as I can tell the claim that T improves efficiency appears to be false.

(BTW, we found no increase in VO2peak following T administration to elderly men in this study: http://www.academia.edu/239287/Urba...in_synthesis._Am_J_Physiol_1995_269_E820-E826)

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Those are all different things...and yes, as far as I can tell the claim that T improves efficiency appears to be false.

(BTW, we found no increase in VO2peak following T administration to elderly men in this study: http://www.academia.edu/239287/Urba...in_synthesis._Am_J_Physiol_1995_269_E820-E826)

They weren't exercising?

 

[dopingectomy]

Those are all different things...and yes, as far as I can tell the claim that T improves efficiency appears to be false.

Indeed different things but T improves all of them when combined with proper training.

(BTW, we found no increase in VO2peak following T administration to elderly men in this study: http://www.academia.edu/239287/Urba...in_synthesis._Am_J_Physiol_1995_269_E820-E826)

Yes, in a nonexercising population. I repeat that training+T is the key. Kudos to Michele for having been the first to understand this relation.

 

[acoggan]

Indeed different things but T improves all of them when combined with proper training.

To paraphrase Rod Tidwell in Jerry Maguire: Show me the data.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

To paraphrase Rod Tidwell in Jerry Maguire: Show me the data.

Ironic that that's the one thing Coyle cannot do, having "lost" the data since publication.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You're right, I shouldn't have called you stupid when it is obvious you're just deliberately being obtuse.

No, my critique was rather pointed.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Why would I write a letter-to-the-editor??

Anyway, since you bring up publication ethics, you might be interested in what the Editor of JAP himself has to say:

"Neither Coyle nor Siebenmann, Robach et al appear to have breached any rules in terms of informed consent, including, for the latter authors, disclosing the eligibility risks of violating WADA rules by taking part in blood manipulations."

and

"Neither set of authors appears to have violated other ethical regulations—there are no suspicions now, nor were there at the time of publication of data/figure manipulations, IRB approval transgressions, plagiarism, and so forth that constitute the bulk of ethical problems seen by journals."

(From http://jap.physiology.org/content/early/2013/03/11/japplphysiol.00298.2013.full.pdf+html)

Okay, he's obviously inept then.

 

[Race Radio]

To paraphrase Rod Tidwell in Jerry Maguire: Show me the data.

You first. Show us the data that supports Coyle weight loss claim.

thanks

 

[Scott SoCal]

You first. Show us the data that supports Coyle weight loss claim.

thanks

Yep. Data is crucial until it's not. Funny that.

 

[acoggan]

You first. Show us the data that supports Coyle weight loss claim.

thanks

That would be up to Coyle, not me.

 

[acoggan]

Yep. Data is crucial until it's not. Funny that.

Data are always crucial.

 

[Mr.38%]

Fact: T was used to treat anemia
Fact: For an effect, T was administered in doses that puts most gym freaks to a shame (1g/wk)
Fact: T as (ab)used by young, healthy world class endurance athletes who are in danger of being tested OOC does not directly influence (as in increase) HB mass [1]. However if it allows the athlete to recover faster, it will lead to better fitness due to higher sustainable training load, though.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18160461


Apart from that: Dr Coggan, I really think you should not do this.

 

[acoggan]

Fact: T was used to treat anemia
Fact: For an effect, T was administered in doses that puts most gym freaks to a shame (1g/wk)
Fact: T as (ab)used by young, healthy world class endurance athletes who are in danger of being tested OOC does not directly influence (as in increase) HB mass [1]. However if it allows the athlete to recover faster, it will lead to better fitness due to higher sustainable training load, though.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18160461


Apart from that: Dr Coggan, I really think you should not do this.

Fact: There do not seem to be any data directly linking testosterone to efficiency, as claimed by dopingectomy. This is an important point to recognize if you wish to try to move any discussion of doping from the realm of speculation into the realm of science (which seemed to be dopingectomy's intent).

 

[Mr.38%]

Dear Dr Coggan, the Facts weren't a reference to any of your postings but to others, claiming administration of Testosterone would have a direct effect on HB mass in elite athletes, i.e. uniballed rider Der Lenz.

Again: I wish you would not do this and I'm saying this a fan.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Fact: There do not seem to be any data directly linking testosterone to efficiency, as claimed by dopingectomy. This is an important point to recognize if you wish to try to move any discussion of doping from the realm of speculation into the realm of science (which seemed to be dopingectomy's intent).

If you wish to move discussion of doping from the realm of speculation into the realm of science, don't go around defending Coyle. He took doping from the realm of speculation into the realm of fantasy. Just a suggestion.

 

[acoggan]

If you wish to move discussion of doping from the realm of speculation into the realm of science, don't go around defending Coyle.

I've never defended his actions - only attempted to help people understand why the paper isn't worth all the histrionics.

 

[Race Radio]

I've never defended his actions - only attempted to help people understand why the paper isn't worth all the histrionics.

I agree, the paper is worthless.

It is unfortunate that Coyle ignored this and pimped dozens of articles, testified under oath, and helped push a myth based on something with so little worth

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Science = data bending

Data is not right? Blaime the editors.
Data is not right? There is no study that proves that data is wrong.

Etc etc.

Selffulfilling prophecy.

 

[acoggan]

I agree, the paper is worthless.

I wouldn't go quite that far, since if nothing else it served to stimulate quite a few additional studies.

It is unfortunate that Coyle ignored this and pimped dozens of articles, testified under oath, and helped push a myth based on something with so little worth

Dozens of articles?? That's the only one he wrote. (The bit about how this article and Coyle's testimony unfortunately propped up Armstrong's myth I would tend to agree with, but hindsight is always 20-20.)

 

[acoggan]

Science = data bending

Data is not right? Blaime the editors.
Data is not right? There is no study that proves that data is wrong.

Etc etc.

Selffulfilling prophecy.

??

Coyle didn't "bend" any data, and there is no evidence that anything in the paper is incorrect (except the paper he cited for the method used to calculate delta efficiency).

But hey, carry on propping up your own myths...shame on me for focusing on facts.