CQ ranking

[Gotland]

Who is we? This isnt a democracy. Hugo decides

What i remember is that someone posted some incoherent drivel about how if you have a rider who gets caught doping your whole team should be suspended, and then someone else suggested that what said poster meant was that if a rider gets caught, that rider gets 0, not the whole team, followed by the word "obviously", but it was far from any law set in stone which the game has to adhere to.

And even if that accidental convo was to be taken as Gods word, does that include people who are being suspended for doping they are alleged to have done not this season but many seasons ago?

And if the entire Lampre 08 squad gets suspended, is Hugo supposed to go through the database and change to 0 the score of every rider (and by the end that could be quite a large number) who has been banned. This for every single week of the game?

Read the rules:

- Anyone getting suspended during the 2011 season will get a total of 0 points at the end of the season regardless of how many points the rider had accumulated prior to his suspension.

So I quess if Cunego, Ballan ect gets cautch this year their points will be zero. But this will take more then a year before we know what have happend.

 

[The Hitch]

Read the rules:

- Anyone getting suspended during the 2011 season will get a total of 0 points at the end of the season regardless of how many points the rider had accumulated prior to his suspension.

So I quess if Cunego, Ballan ect gets cautch this year their points will be zero. But this will take more then a year before we know what have happend.

As i explain in my edit, logistically that is a very difficult task as it would involve setting up ones own cq universe rather than pasting from the cq site.

 

[luckyboy]

If that happens, someone will have to calculate every other rider's scores when they get promoted a place.

I think that whatever happens on CQ should happen here.

 

[ingsve]

As i explain in my edit, logistically that is a very difficult task as it would involve setting up ones own cq universe rather than pasting from the cq site.

Edit: You wouldn't need to set up a new CQ universe. You go by the points that the CQ ranking officially have for each rider except for the riders that get caught. They will simply get 0 points with no further effect acted upon other riders other than the fixes that CQ does themselves.

(Written before edit: How would that be difficult? At the end of the year you just look and see what riders have been suspended during the year and then just change their score. Most likely there won't be more than a handful riders and if the whole Lampre thing gets resolved then it might be 30 some riders but even that is not a huge task to fix if it's a one time edit at the end of the year.)

 

[hrotha]

Oops, I hadn't seen the rules. I think what should happen is the banned rider loses his points, but no one else is promoted unless the official results (and CQ's ranking) are changed. But then, someone should keep track of who's getting banned - obviously we all know about the big cases like Riccò, Sinkewitz and Contador, but what if someone picks a nobody who gets him some points but is then banned and no one knows about it?

edit: that also means you guys are going to take away our 24 Riccò Points. That's mean, people. It's our only memento of him.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Who is we? This isnt a democracy. Hugo decides

What i remember is that someone posted some incoherent drivel about how if you have a rider who gets caught doping your whole team should be suspended, and then someone else suggested that what said poster meant was that if a rider gets caught, that rider gets 0, not the whole team, followed by the word "obviously", but it was far from any law set in stone which the game has to adhere to.

And even if that accidental convo was to be taken as Gods word, does that include people who are being suspended for doping they are alleged to have done not this season but many seasons ago?

And if the entire Lampre 08 squad gets suspended, is Hugo supposed to go through the database and change to 0 the score of every rider (and by the end that could be quite a large number) who has been banned. This for every single week of the game?

And if Contador gets banned, but gets to keep his Catalunia score, then since it has been decided that all banned riders get 0, does that mean we are going to set up our own "alternate cq universe" where we calculate who would have got what scores had Contador not been there so that Uran can get an extra 12 points and so that Anton can get 12 points for finishing 25th rather than the 11 points he got for finishing 26th while Contador was there. Because cq isnt going to do that for us.

the rule that dopers will get a total of 0 was established and confirmed (by hugo) multiple tines, including within the rules.

It would be a joke if they got to keep there points
It is an interesting aspect of the game, Ballan had suspicious already last year, so he wasn't completely risk free. Same goes for Ricco, Sinkewitz. It's called foresight. I took a risk with ricco, and it failed. oh well.

Understand you might be upset at the prospect of losing points, but that is the rules.

As i explain in my edit, logistically that is a very difficult task as it would involve setting up ones own cq universe rather than pasting from the cq site.

so we should allow players to keep points, despite pre-written rules- because it is a difficult task?
seems fair.

 

[roundabout]

...snipped for brevity...

Because cq isnt going to do that for us.

CQ does reset points.

Here's one example

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=10971

Although i can't recall how quickly they do it. Also there's no guessing how long the possible trial in Italy is going to take and what will be decided.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Edit: You wouldn't need to set up a new CQ universe. You go by the points that the CQ ranking officially have for each rider except for the riders that get caught. They will simply get 0 points with no further effect acted upon other riders other than the fixes that CQ does themselves.

(Written before edit: How would that be difficult? At the end of the year you just look and see what riders have been suspended during the year and then just change their score. Most likely there won't be more than a handful riders and if the whole Lampre thing gets resolved then it might be 30 some riders but even that is not a huge task to fix if it's a one time edit at the end of the year.)

yeah considering the effort already gone into the game, doing that sort of update isn't a big deal, certainly worth keeping credibility.

 

[The Hitch]

How would that be difficult? At the end of the year you just look and see what riders have been suspended during the year and then just change their score. Most likely there won't be more than a handful riders and if the whole Lampre thing gets resolved then it might be 30 some riders but even that is not a huge task to fix if it's a one time edit at the end of the year.

Well if Contador is judged by UCI to be the winner of Catalunia and by the moral police to be suspended and hence none existant in the race, then surely 2nd place Michelle Scarponi should take his 1st place points, and Dam Martin should take the 2nd place points.

Also if Lampre get suspended in a month, then that means every weekly update will essentially be meaningless as it will give Cunego and Ballan and others (popular riders) and probably Ricco (chosen by half) points they dont actually have.

Unless you were to change their scores every week.

 

[Gotland]

As i explain in my edit, logistically that is a very difficult task as it would involve setting up ones own cq universe rather than pasting from the cq site.

I think he means that the doper gets zero points all other points are unchanged. But as I said this case will not be closed in a while. Atleast one year before it is decided in italy then one more year before CAS make a final decision.

 

[roundabout]

Weekly updates are just updates. It's the final update that matters.

If UCI/CAS decides that Contador won Catalunya that would be enough for me-

 

[The Hitch]

CQ does reset points.

Here's one example

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=10971

Although i can't recall how quickly they do it. Also there's no guessing how long the possible trial in Italy is going to take and what will be decided.

This discussion isnt about cases where cq resets points. Its about cases where cq judges a rider to have been clean at a race, but CN posters believe that he should have his points taken away anyway.

You could of course write a letter to CN asking them to change the scores around for our benefit

 

[hrotha]

This discussion isnt about cases where cq resets points. Its about cases where cq judges a rider to have been clean at a race, but CN posters believe that he should have his points taken away anyway.

You could of course write a letter to CN asking them to change the scores around for our benefit

It's not about CN posters believing anything. The rules are clean: you are banned for doping, you lose all your points. Them's the rules, man, them's the rules. It's no different than the 33 rider cap or any other rule.

 

[roundabout]

This discussion isnt about cases where cq resets points. Its about cases where cq judges a rider to have been clean at a race, but CN posters believe that he should have his points taken away anyway.

You could of course write a letter to CN asking them to change the scores around for our benefit

Going by what I believe I lead the game as all people currently ahead of me are only there because of doping.

But seriously, UCI/CAS decides. Nothing complicated about that. I don't think even CQ disagrees with official decisions.

 

[The Hitch]

If that happens, someone will have to calculate every other rider's scores when they get promoted a place.

I think that whatever happens on CQ should happen here.

+1

so we should allow players to keep points, despite pre-written rules- because it is a difficult task?
seems fair.

Come on Timmy lets not get personal.

THis has nothing to do my cq team so its a cheap and needless attack. As many posters have said the verdict is unlikely for this year (hell we dont even have a verdict on Contador 9 months later) and another rule of the game is that the game ends on December 31st and it doesnt matter what happens afterwards.

SO as it happens my cq team is not under such great threat and is definately not my reason for taking this position. My reason for taking the position that cq points should decide the cq game is that I believe it is simpler, and because i dont agree with most CN forum Pro road racing section posters about doping.

Youll see that luckyboy above who in the clinic shares identical positions to me, agrees with me on this issue as well.

 

[luckyboy]

Shouldn't the points be exactly the same as whatever CQ give? Seeing as this is the CQ Manager game.

Not just saying this because I have some suspicious riders btw.

 

[ingsve]

Well if Contador is judged by UCI to be the winner of Catalunia and by the moral police to be suspended and hence none existant in the race, then surely 2nd place Michelle Scarponi should take his 1st place points, and Dam Martin should take the 2nd place points.

Also if Lampre get suspended in a month, then that means every weekly update will essentially be meaningless as it will give Cunego and Ballan and others (popular riders) and probably Ricco (chosen by half) points they dont actually have.

Unless you were to change their scores every week.

The rules for this game are very simple. We go by the official CQ ranking points except for a specific clause where we for doped riders count 0 instead of the CQ points. Nowhere in the rules does it open up for us tweaking any other numbers.

 

[ingsve]

Shouldn't the points be exactly the same as whatever CQ give? Seeing as this is the CQ Manager game.

Not just saying this because I have some suspicious riders btw.

They are except that we have an additional rule that punishes riders that dope by removing all their points no matter what the CQ ranking says.

 

[The Hitch]

It's not about CN posters believing anything. The rules are clean: you are banned for doping, you lose all your points. Them's the rules, man, them's the rules. It's no different than the 33 rider cap or any other rule.

The rules for this game are very simple. We go by the official CQ ranking points except for a specific clause where we for doped riders count 0 instead of the CQ points. Nowhere in the rules does it open up for us tweaking any other numbers.

The rules have been changed before though

We get that Hugo (on holiday now i think) decides the rules and will probably keep it the same, but that doesnt mean i cant present the case for doing it another (and to me more logical way) which is to put everyones scores in the hands of the brilliant people at CQ rankings.com

These are my terms, i do not care to play by any others.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

+1



Come on Timmy lets not get personal.

THis has nothing to do my cq team so its a cheap and needless attack. As many posters have said the verdict is unlikely for this year (hell we dont even have a verdict on Contador 9 months later) and another rule of the game is that the game ends on December 31st and it doesnt matter what happens afterwards.

Youll see that luckyboy above who in the clinic shares identical positions to me, agrees with me on this issue as well.

wasn't attempting to be personal, don't take it so personal.

The point is, like Hrotha said, the rules were set prior to the game started. It was evident CQ is flawed with not taking away points with dopers, but we knew this prior to the start of the season, thus the rule was established as a loop hole around the flaw.

simpler doesn't mean fairer, again the reason the rule was established in the first place.

The final update will not be very difficult to update anyway(I have a lot of experience with excel, it wont take long at all).

 

[ingsve]

The rules have been changed before though

We get that Hugo (on holiday now i think) decides the rules and will probably keep it the same, but that doesnt mean i cant present the case for doing it another (and to me more logical way) which is to put everyones scores in the hands of the brilliant people at CQ rankings.com

These are my terms, i do not care to play by any others.

If Hugo decides to change the rules then that's fine. I'm just pointing out what the rules are as currently stated. And even if the rules aren't changed I'm sure this discussion will come up again in the fall ahead of next seasons game.

 

[The Hitch]

wasn't attempting to be personal, don't take it so personal.

The point is, like Hrotha said, the rules were set prior to the game started. It was evident CQ is flawed with not taking away points with dopers, but we knew this prior to the start of the season, thus the rule was established as a loop hole around the flaw.

simpler doesn't mean fairer, again the reason the rule was established in the first place.
.

But cq do take away points of dopers. Look at Valverde 2010.

 

[hrotha]

But cq do take away points of dopers. Look at Valverde 2010.

Only when they are officially DQ'ed, which isn't always the case.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

The rules have been changed before though

We get that Hugo (on holiday now i think) decides the rules and will probably keep it the same, but that doesnt mean i cant present the case for doing it another (and to me more logical way) which is to put everyones scores in the hands of the brilliant people at CQ rankings.com

These are my terms, i do not care to play by any others.

Changing the rules this much isn't fair tho, some might have based their picks with the doping rule in mind. I know I stayed clear of sella, di luca because of that reason. I already had ricco, one risk was enough. Otherwise I would have picked them no problem.
I'm not posting this because of potential gain in the game, I have wayyy lost anyway, but rather I dislike the notion of changing such a big rule. Like I said it isn't fair, and imo makes the game lose crediability (changing rules when ever someone argues? I'm all for this discussion going towards a rule change for 2012', tho I don't think it should change, as dopers should be punished as far as I'm concerned.) .

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

But cq do take away points of dopers. Look at Valverde 2010.

I know, but are we to be naive and believe they just doped in the race they got caught? please. (BTW maybe this can be the case sometimes, but yeah, I'm sure you get my point)

The punishment score (0) was a less naive look at doping. And like I said, it meant players had to think about picking more risky riders, please refer to my above post on what I mean by this.