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Crashes, what can be done?

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@Froome

It's like with doping, until UCI took responsibility, EPO and Co. was a thing. And let me remind you UCI was the last stronghold, on when it comes to supporting doping.

The exact same thing is now happening in regards to safety in the pro peloton. UCI is the one major party against it, improving safety, they are keeping the system as is.

Organisers i am sure will follow the lead, long term.

Fans, well i can't really blame the fans, for fans blaming the riders. That is just a cultural thing, as after all fans had about 100 years to improve on their craft, determining and blaming on which rider fault it is. Fans in reality couldn't care less about riders safety in the pro peloton. For fans this is pure entertainment, has been for millenniums.
 
@Froome

It's like with doping, until UCI took responsibility, EPO and Co. was a thing. And let me remind you UCI was the last stronghold, on when it comes to supporting doping.

The exact same thing is now happening in regards to safety in the pro peloton. UCI is the one major party against it, improving safety, they are keeping the system as is.

Organisers i am sure will follow the lead, long term.

Fans, well i can't really blame the fans, for fans blaming the riders. That is just a cultural thing, as after all fans had about 100 years to improve on their craft, determining and blaming on which rider fault it is. Fans in reality couldn't care less about riders safety in the pro peloton. For fans this is pure entertainment, has been for millenniums.
The only thing UCI and organisers can do is trying to use better and safe roads sometimes, but the majority of the crashes are not due to that.

The riders are the ones who can really change that, not UCI or organisers. What you think UCI and organisers can do to not let the riders take less and unnecessary risks?

They always want to be in good position in the front of the peloton, but there's no space for everybody. It's not UCI fault.


This has nothing to do with doping, different matter.
 
Best if you read this thread. There is a long list already, of the things they aren't doing and should be doing. For starters.
Maybe regulating rider behaviours could be a start, since the riders divebombing each other and sprinting on the crab seems to be a recurring problem.

Again: FIA could have more control of safety in F1 because the circuits are enclosed, and they own the land they are using, they can modify the circuits. Just look at the shape changes over time of long-time courses like Silverstone or Monza. Cycling not only makes less money than F1, but it uses public roads a far greater % of the time. They can't, say, instruct ASO to construct a 20m tarmac run-off at a hairpin on a mountain road or a sharp corner in an inner-city sprint run-in the way FIA can instruct circuit owners for F1. ASO can maybe get some kerbs dropped or a traffic island flattened to make things more passable, but for most organisers, just getting local councils to fill in potholes in the road is probably the sum of the influence they can have. Smaller races can't afford to shut down large metropoles or use major highways and thoroughfares, so they have to use smaller roads which are by definition going to be less busy and less well maintained. While the organisers may occasionally need to be brought to rights for taking too many risks with their choice of roads, the riders have to adjust their behaviours to the roads they face. You can't descend a mountain road in the Basque country, with its inconsistent goat tracks and sharp faces, in the same way as you would descend a mountain road in, say, Colorado, built with much more modern machinery with much better road surface, wider and better signposted. It's not because Basque race organisers are trying to injure riders, but because that's what cycling in the Basque country entails. Cycling in Belgium has poor concrete and pavé road surfaces. Cycling in the Netherlands has road furniture everywhere. Cycling in Brétagne has repechos and tight corners on narrow farm tracks. Cycling in País Vasco has inconsistent, twisty mountain roads. That's just how it is, and I'm not going to be all that sympathetic if you're riding flat-out like you're on some sweeping bends on a highway with tarmac to make Bavarianrider swoon and then blaming race organisers for any accidents because you didn't know that they had twisty steep roads in the Basque country.

They can maybe put clearer rules on what is allowable in a sprint approach to try to minimise those stages with crazy amounts of road furniture, pinch points or sharp corners that increase the risk of crashes; they can maybe do more to enforce rules in the leadout and the sprint in order to punish those who ride recklessly - but the problem with that is that historically they've policed the outcome, not the offence, and the first time they policed the offence and relegated Peter Sagan in a TDF sprint stage contentiously, everybody yelled at them for ruining a good battle for the maillot vert.

But the Wout van Aert injury crash was caused on a perfectly flat, three-lane-wide piece of road. That's the kind of crash you simply can't avoid, because cycling is an outdoor sport. It is susceptible to weather - a bit of cross-wind can cause a touch of wheels or a loss of control temporarily that results in a crash. Marta Cavalli's terrible injuries a couple of years ago were caused because another rider had had a crash or mechanical and were riding head down as hard as they could to get back on to the bunch, and didn't react to another crash in front of them - both on a perfectly straight and innocuous piece of road. The Itzulia crash may have had worse effects because the organisers didn't put haybales or catch fencing on the outside of the corner... but it was the riders going too fast for the road that caused the crash to happen in the first place, and the way the riders had soft-pedalled the climb before charging headlong into the descent meant the péloton was far bigger than it would have been otherwise so more riders ended up becoming involved.

It's not that UCI or race organisers can't or shouldn't be held responsible, it's that they can - and should - only be held responsible for the outcomes they have any level of control over. Van Aert's and Cavalli's injuries are things that are entirely outside of organisers' responsibility. Things like Jakobsen's injuries or the Itzulia crash, we can blame the organisers for the outcomes of the crashes being worse than they should have been had the organisers done their job more responsibly, but we can't blame them for causing the crashes themselves, because Jakobsen didn't crash thanks to an unsafe finish, he crashed because of Dylan Groenewegen's unsafe riding - that was made worse by an unsafe finish.

Throughout this thread you've seemed to hang on to some idealised possibility where the riders can continue to throw themselves around with reckless abandon at 100% power at all times, taking every risk in the world, as the UCI and the race organisers will have the responsibility to guarantee their safety; but I'm afraid that's simply not possible. Cycling will never be made 'safe', only 'safer' - to think that real progress can be achieved with only one party taking action is naïve.

One problem is that the péloton used to self-police a lot more vocally and self-evidently. Riders who took too many risks in sprints and leadouts, like Graeme Brown or Romain Feillu, or who caused a particularly bad crash that ruined their reputation, like Roberto Ferrari or Theo Bos, had the bunch to answer to, and there were enforcer types in the bunch who would let the péloton's dissatisfaction with a rider be known, such as a Mark Renshaw. This self-policing meant the UCI didn't need to get involved all that often unless somebody did something so egregious it merited a standout punishment (such as Theo Bos literally wrestling Daryl Impey off his bike).
 
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@Libertine Seguros

Thanks for trying to acknowledge a different point view. That is although more then 2/3 of your reply was again about all being it riders fault, you at least mentioned other parties involved this time. Although arguing things like other parties involved are too poor to do anything to improve safety in pro peloton, that at least opens up possibility to say OK, with more money involved in the future, things can finally improve.

So all in all i support an effort on where in general some portion of money involved is secured for the purpose of improving riders safety. So the money not to be sole excuse any more, on how nothing can be done, due to lack of money.

As we discussed this already in length, better apparel and barriers on exposed sections on descends. If that would be enforced already, financially rather negligible measures, big three would not end up in hospital and van Aert likely to still do the Giro. Both of the things mentioned are outside of riders influence or control. So in the end and from this point of view it doesn't really matter, if the big 3 crashed, if van Aert crashed ... What does matter is UCI didn't do anything about it, to prevent an injury, on where the crash does occur. This is their responsibility and we will make them take it.
 
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@Froome

So in short, in regards to your question, responsibility division and a plausible way forward. There is much more to it but saying:

  • Riders main responsibility is to try to avoid a crash.
  • UCI main responsibility is injury prevention in case of a crash.

Now that doesn't in any way exempt UCI of responsibility to be pro-active in regards to reducing the number of crashes in the first place. As for injury prevention, this is currently a sci-fi topic for UCI and they are doing mostly nothing about it, this hence will need to change in foreseeable future. UCI will need to take more responsibility in regards to not only reduce number of crashes but especially in regards to injury prevention on where a crash occurs. Barriers, apparel ... you name it. Like FIA did, mostly with technical measures. Although predictable rule enforcement in regards to racing helps too, that doesn't help in a case of a crash, to reduce a number of injuries. For that appropriate technical measures need to be taken into consideration and to be applied beforehand the crash occurs.
 
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@Froome

So in short, in regards to your question, responsibility division and a plausible way forward. There is much more to it but saying:

  • Riders main responsibility is to try to avoid a crash.
  • UCI main responsibility is injury prevention in case of a crash.

Now that doesn't in any way exempt UCI of responsibility to be pro-active in regards to reducing the number of crashes in the first place. As for injury prevention, this is currently a sci-fi topic for UCI and they are doing mostly nothing about it, this hence will need to change in foreseeable future. UCI will need to take more responsibility in regards to not only reduce number of crashes but especially in regards to injury prevention on where a crash occurs. Barriers, apparel ... you name it. Like FIA did, mostly with technical measures. Although predictable rule enforcement in regards to racing helps too, that doesn't help in a case of a crash, to reduce a number of injuries. For that appropriate technical measures need to be taken into consideration and to be applied beforehand the crash occurs.
I don't think airbag bib shorts are the solution.....it would turn cycling into a circus.
 
I don't think airbag bib shorts are the solution.....it would turn cycling into a circus.

It's already a circus.

P.S. As for enforcing one solution or another, it doesn't really matter, as long as number of (crashes) injuries gets reduced. So first things first, UCI to claim responsibility, being helped into it, then it's all more or less measurable. The results. And we all know on how UCI is good at measuring things.
 
For that appropriate technical measures need to be taken into consideration and to be applied beforehand the crash occurs.

I think it's the general consensus that there should indeed have been some padding on that concrete ditch at Basque.
In fact, you could even be cynical, and say that not having padding on that was worse than not having padding on the culvert Lambrecht hit, because the one in the Basque Country was at a location with a higher risk for a crash, whereas in Poland it was just cursed bad luck.
 
@Libertine Seguros

Thanks for trying to acknowledge a different point view. That is although more then 2/3 of your reply was again about all being it riders fault, you at least mentioned other parties involved this time. Although arguing things like other parties involved are too poor to do anything to improve safety in pro peloton, that at least opens up possibility to say OK, with more money involved in the future, things can finally improve.

So all in all i support an effort on where in general some portion of money involved is secured for the purpose of improving riders safety. So the money not to be sole excuse any more, on how nothing can be done, due to lack of money.

As we discussed this already in length, better apparel and barriers on exposed sections on descends. If that would be enforced already, financially rather negligible measures, big three would not end up in hospital and van Aert likely to still do the Giro. Both of the things mentioned are outside of riders influence or control. So in the end and from this point of view it doesn't really matter, if the big 3 crashed, if van Aert crashed ... What does matter is UCI didn't do anything about it, to prevent an injury, on where the crash does occur. This is their responsibility and we will make them take it.
My opinion has remained consistent throughout. My opinion is that there are things that race organisers and the UCI can do, but there's only so much they can do without buy-in from the riders - with the measures you propose, they might be able to reduce the extent of injuries caused by the crashes that take place, but not the amount of crashes that happen (I think more prescriptive guidelines on things like acceptable sprint lead-ins for final ~5km of flat stages would be a better plan of action, personally). I feel like your crusade against the UCI has led you to effectively treat things as though the riders have no agency or culpability for their actions and you lay all responsibility for improvement at the hands of the officials. But the riders are the only party involved (edit: also the motos and follow-cars, who have caused a few incidents themselves in recent times that should be called out too) for whom the action required for positive change requires no additional funding, no investment, and no implementation time... all it requires is a touch of introspection.

Also the van Aert crash happened in an area that would not have been fenced or barriered in your hypothetical version of world cycling. It was a completely innocuous stretch of road, in a reduced bunch, with plenty of space, not at a sprint, and on a flat stretch of road. That was precisely the kind of crash that any amount of rules on organisers cannot predict or legislate for. It's just unfortunate.
 
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Why were they going so fast then if it was that slippery?

Were they drilling it though? My stream crashed and when it was coming back on again everybody was on the floor. But from the footage of the crash I saw, I at least couldn't tell if that wasn't just being fast due to, well, riding downhill.

The left wet side of the road is just very slippery so when it starts, everybody is down safe the one rider who managed to take a right turn before the water.
 
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Why were they going so fast then if it was that slippery?
They go down a hill like they go down a zillion hills. It's only when they approach a curve, a rider is braking and sliding, other riders can't avoid the initial crash and go down / slide as well, that everyone realizes it is slippery. But that's when it's too late.
Even the riders in the back who left some space couldn't all stop in time and some (like that DSM rider) crashed hard in the ditch.

A kind of stupid brainstorm idea: allow some really good amateurs to ride 30 minutes in front of the peloton, moto-pace, and let them give feedback on road conditions and let them even decide if e.g. downhills should be neutralized by motos. In this particular case, with the sudden wet roads, you need real-time updates, and it was clear from the lead duo that the roads were treacherous.
 
They go down a hill like they go down a zillion hills. It's only when they approach a curve, a rider is braking and sliding, other riders can't avoid the initial crash and go down / slide as well, that everyone realizes it is slippery. But that's when it's too late.
Even the riders in the back who left some space couldn't all stop in time and some (like that DSM rider) crashed hard in the ditch.

A kind of stupid brainstorm idea: allow some really good amateurs to ride 30 minutes in front of the peloton, moto-pace, and let them give feedback on road conditions and let them even decide if e.g. downhills should be neutralized by motos. In this particular case, with the sudden wet roads, you need real-time updates, and it was clear from the lead duo that the roads were treacherous.
You are going full gas and hoping to not crash due to slippery road or someone infront of you crashing.
 
They go down a hill like they go down a zillion hills. It's only when they approach a curve, a rider is braking and sliding, other riders can't avoid the initial crash and go down / slide as well, that everyone realizes it is slippery. But that's when it's too late.
Even the riders in the back who left some space couldn't all stop in time and some (like that DSM rider) crashed hard in the ditch.

A kind of stupid brainstorm idea: allow some really good amateurs to ride 30 minutes in front of the peloton, moto-pace, and let them give feedback on road conditions and let them even decide if e.g. downhills should be neutralized by motos. In this particular case, with the sudden wet roads, you need real-time updates, and it was clear from the lead duo that the roads were treacherous.
Both on this and the previous descent, GC teams moved up to the front while Trek kept the break in control (Trek slowed down on the previous descent as that one too was slippery, giving away ~40").
 
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