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Crashes, what can be done?

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Unchained

Sep 5, 2016
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Divergence said:
I am shocked wide tires and disk brakes are not helping....
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Left out low tire pressure and dirty roads.
Realistically the tire casing for something 30-32,34mm that can survive rock cuts probably don't give you a good contact patch . Pogacar and others on UAE looked like they were riding 32s..hard to tell but still photos and video of tire width and profile using the forks as reference looks like they were a bit fatter than normal. But when Pogacar ate pavement Pidcock was there and took a way different angle. Pog was leaning over like GP1 motorcycle!!
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7ThjpG_ImMc&pp=ygUTcG9nYWNhciBjcmFzaCB0b2RheQ%3D%3D
 
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Berniece

Berniece

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An article about all the measure the E3 organisation takes to make sure the race is safe for riders and audience. I don't think that there's anything special, they are just very very thorough.


How E3 Saxo Classic wants to be the safest race of the year

Anyone who wants to organize a cycling race at WorldTour level needs a safety manager, a safety expert with a UCI diploma. At the E3 Saxo Classic, that is Seppe Seynhaeve. He followed a UCI training in Switzerland and has been coordinating the safety aspect in Harelbeke for eight years now. "For us, this is a very important theme," he says.

"We are lucky that we can organise in Flanders. Cycling is part of our culture and you can see that. I also see competitions in other countries and other regions, but nowhere is so much attention paid to safety as here. Our fellow organisers in the Flemish spring are also working hard on this. You can safely say that we are a pioneer in Flanders when it comes to safety."

Everything starts with the course. Even though the basis has been the same for a few years, the men of the E3 Saxo Classic start with the drawing work in August: large, wide roads in the first hours of the race, only then does it go to the Flemish Ardennes. The summer and autumn are also the period in which the municipalities are contacted: where is work being done, where could a problem arise?

"Everything is mapped out," says Seynhaeve. "Then we will actively ask the municipalities whether they can remove traffic calming measures: posts, small islands, mobile road narrowing... That is of course not possible everywhere, but the layout of the road is being adapted for the race in 15 places." Seynhaeve can often be found on the course in the period November-December. For three days, he captures every potentially dangerous point. Literally: he photographs every road narrowing, every sharp bend, every railway crossing, every fast descent, every speed bump, every refuge island, etc.

Because the course is more than 200 kilometres long, this results in an enormous pile of information. Processing this information again takes a few days. The final result goes to the team leaders. In Veloviewer, a specialised website/app for setting out routes, they can check and study all the obstacles that await them on Friday.

Seynhaeve: "You have to imagine it as a kind of Waze or Google Maps in which you can pinpoint every relevant situation."

In the weeks before the race, the course is explored again, this time with all the race drivers. These are the men and women who drive the cars of the race director, the jury and the commissioners on Friday, a total of about twenty people. "On the three Sundays before the E3 Saxo Classic, we all ride the entire course together. So that no one is surprised on the day of the race."

The day before the race, all sports directors receive another safety briefing. "No boring PowerPoint, but a video in which we show the most important passages again. With race footage from previous editions. For example, this year there is a fragment in which Pogacar flies off the bend. We are focusing hard on proactive communication."

Two hours before the race, a final check of the course is carried out. This inspection team rides the route from start to finish and has to solve the last problems. "Every year you have these things: arrows that have disappeared, a dead rabbit on the road, mud on the road... We check it all. Our team has a shovel and brush with them, but there is also a sweeper on standby all day."

Just like most organisers in the spring, the E3 Saxo Classic works together with Boplan, a West Flemish company specialising in security equipment. Think of boarding, crash pads, warning totems and so on. "Because we were the first to do business with them, they always launch their new products with us as a first", says Seynhaeve.

This year, these are new chevron banners (herringbone pattern) and new integrated gates that should make the barriers at the finish even safer. "It is also very important that everything has the same layout: that makes it easier for riders to spot dangerous spots."

Crowd management is also becoming increasingly important. In other words: spreading out the crowd. The organisers of the E3 Saxo Classic noticed that in recent years, it had become dangerously busy at some places on the course because too many fans and VIPs were gathering. The Taaienberg, the Paterberg and the Oude Kwaremont are such places. "We felt that sooner or later it could go wrong, which is why we split up our VIP formulas, so that we can now spread all those people over seven new locations."

The three hills in question are also cordoned off with crash barriers. A team of thirty people arranges this on Thursday evening and night. On the day of the race, stewards are present at the critical points.
There are approximately 650 signallers on the course who have to close off around 900 streets to prevent 'normal' traffic from entering the course. The major intersections are manned by the police.
There are 25 motorcycles in the race, each with a pilot and mobile signaller. They signal dangerous points with yellow hazard flags and whistles. They also carry extra banners with which they can warn of exceptional incidents. Think of a fall or a car breaking down on the course.

The motorcyclists use the 'way in/way out' system (a pre-determined shortcut) to repeatedly join the course. At the busiest places, they are accompanied by the police. The organisation is deploying more than 50 buses to get all the VIPs on and along the course. Each bus is accompanied by two motorcyclists and is equipped with a track & trace system. This allows you to check at any time who is where and whether any problems arise. The opening car (before the race), the race director's car (in the race) and the closing car (behind the race) are also equipped with a GPS tracker.

The race is monitored all day long from the CP-Ops in Harelbeke, or the 'operations command post'. This is a control room where Seynhaeve, together with the police, fire brigade and medical services, follows everything on and around the course on dozens of TV screens.
"We constantly have all possible TV images that are made, both on the motorbike and from the helicopter. We have mounted an extra GoPro on the race director's car. It is a spider's web to die for", says Seynhaeve. "Because every year a situation arises somewhere that requires action: think of blown over barriers or a farmers' protest. You can avoid and prevent a lot, but not everything."
 
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Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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Berniece said:
An article about all the measure the E3 organisation takes to make sure the race is safe for riders and audience. I don't think that there's anything special, they are just very very thorough.

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I take it that the fences are like in the picture in the article and just about crowd control, and not about denying the gutter?

3934833-79929433-2560-1440.jpg

20186493-415753-e1519644917104.jpg


It's a bit weird that they don't mention Kanarieberg or the descent down Pottelberg as they approach it where Van Aert (among others) crashed and got injured last year. E3 is the only race to feature that section this year, I think.
 
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Berniece

Berniece

Sep 12, 2022
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Netserk said:
It's a bit weird that they don't mention Kanarieberg or the descent down Pottelberg as they approach it where Van Aert (among others) crashed and got injured last year. E3 is the only race to feature that section this year, I think.
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I also found that weird. It reads a bit like a sponsored article. It isn't really an interview and it doesn't seem hard questions were asked.
 
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QueenStagiaire

QueenStagiaire

Jun 30, 2022
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Honestly, I don‘t quite understand why they have to take the main road down to the Kanarieberg when they could also turn south onto N519 and then take the narrow town roads down from Mont d‘Ellezelles to the foot of the Kanarieberg. This would move the bottleneck to before the descent, which looking at the last few years can‘t be more dangerous than what is currently happening going into Kanarieberg.
 
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Divergence

Feb 27, 2023
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I am quite surprised nobody is pointing out a very obvious thing that could be done to avoid crashes. Do not ride like Ayuso during the sprint today. I understand nothing happened (mostly because Rog braked) but the riders should let Ayuso know he was a clown today as well as the UCI fining him. Could have ended very badly had Rogla not reacted well.
 
tobydawq

tobydawq

Nov 16, 2013
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Divergence said:
I am quite surprised nobody is pointing out a very obvious thing that could be done to avoid crashes. Do not ride like Ayuso during the sprint today. I understand nothing happened (mostly because Rog braked) but the riders should let Ayuso know he was a clown today as well as the UCI fining him. Could have ended very badly had Rogla not reacted well.
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We didn't really get to see what happened, did we? But as I said in the race thread, Red Bull tried to play dirty by braking in front of Ayuso, and he didn't go for that.
 
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Divergence

Feb 27, 2023
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tobydawq said:
We didn't really get to see what happened, did we? But as I said in the race thread, Red Bull tried to play dirty by braking in front of Ayuso, and he didn't go for that.
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I do not think anybody braked in front of Ayuso but rather let the wheel go, which I believe is a clean and correct tactic.
Regarding the second sprint it is true that it was not best captured by the broadcast but if you piece it together it is fairly clear that Ayuso dive bombed Rog to get on Denz's wheel. While this might be acceptable in cyclocross, it is a very dangerous maneuver in road cycling and it should not be tolerated. Especially dive bombing between two teammates.
What Ayuso did was to wager that Rog is careful enough to avoid crashing both of them out of this race and possibly the Giro as well.
And while Ayuso is desperate enough to do that Rog was not, so the crash was avoided but Rog paid the price of the bonus seconds.
Therefore, I believe Ayuso's move warrants at least a yellow card.
 
tobydawq

tobydawq

Nov 16, 2013
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Divergence said:
What Ayuso did was to wager that Rog is careful enough to avoid crashing both of them out of this race and possibly the Giro as well.
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Or end both of their careers then and there.

I always hate when people exaggerate danger so ludicrously. It was at a very sharp bend, so the speed was low. No Giri were in danger. Ayuso did what he had to do to try to win Catalunya instead of just sit feebly by.
 
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Divergence

Feb 27, 2023
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tobydawq said:
Or end both of their careers then and there.

I always hate when people exaggerate danger so ludicrously. It was at a very sharp bend, so the speed was low. No Giri were in danger. Ayuso did what he had to do to try to win Catalunya instead of just sit feebly by.
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You do not think a bad crash with some broken bones could have happened there?
It is a quasi rhetorical question so I will tell you. Yes, it could have ended badly for one or both of them and maybe even some more riders. Easily.
This is road cycling. There is no place for shoulder barging. That is why I do not like sprint stages as well. The sprinters are some of the worst behaved riders out there.
As Rogla said. Battle it out on the climbs. That is road cycling.
For sprints go watch velodrome racing and so shoulder barging CX.
I guess people start complaining about safety only when they favorite rider gets taken out...

Edit: If you want to win some bonification sprints battle it out fairly. Either form a parallel train with your team or come out of the wheel of the opponent and beat him that way.
 
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U

Unchained

Sep 5, 2016
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Divergence said:
You do not think a bad crash with some broken bones could have happened there?
It is a quasi rhetorical question so I will tell you. Yes, it could have ended badly for one or both of them and maybe even some more riders. Easily.
This is road cycling. There is no place for shoulder barging. That is why I do not like sprint stages as well. The sprinters are some of the worst behaved riders out there.
As Rogla said. Battle it out on the climbs. That is road cycling.
For sprints go watch velodrome racing and so shoulder barging CX.
I guess people start complaining about safety only when they favorite rider gets taken out...

Edit: If you want to win some bonification sprints battle it out fairly. Either form a parallel train with your team or come out of the wheel of the opponent and beat him that way.
Click to expand...
Contact between riders during a race, but especially in professional cycling is a normal part of the sport, something as routine as bumping a rider out of the way to take a wheel away from a rider who wants it less. Hips, heads and shoulders are used as bumpers for position.
 
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D

Divergence

Feb 27, 2023
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Unchained said:
Contact between riders during a race, but especially in professional cycling is a normal part of the sport, something as routine as bumping a rider out of the way to take a wheel away from a rider who wants it less. Hips, heads and shoulders are used as bumpers for position.
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And people are amazed when cyclist get disfigured faces and walk on crutches or when the worst happens...
It seems nothing needs to be done regarding all the crashes since obviously nobody cares about it....
 
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U

Unchained

Sep 5, 2016
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Divergence said:
And people are amazed when cyclist get disfigured faces and walk on crutches or when the worst happens...
It seems nothing needs to be done regarding all the crashes since obviously nobody cares about it....
Click to expand...
While all of what you described can and does happen in bike riding and racing, but injuries in bike riding and racing often happens when no intentional contact is made. There are just too many variables in professional bike racing that have nothing to do with hobbyist or normal person's skill set. Regular people don't drink 2-3 bottles per hour on their bikes , don't go to the bathroom, don't repair their bikes, don't put on or remove clothing, don't receive medical care on their bicycle... All while in motion.. So is bike riding and racing dangerous? Yes of course. But the number of people who are disfigured or permanently disabled are seldom from pro ranks. Because people don't know, video of routine riding is not available, body contact just happens inconsequentially in pro ranks and seldom with millions of regular bike riders and even serious hobbyists who race regularly.. A head or shoulder strike to another rider is not a normal thing for non pros. In my opinion body contact results in way way fewer crashes than it causes.
 
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Divergence

Feb 27, 2023
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Unchained said:
While all of what you described can and does happen in bike riding and racing, but injuries in bike riding and racing often happens when no intentional contact is made. There are just too many variables in professional bike racing that have nothing to do with hobbyist or normal person's skill set. Regular people don't drink 2-3 bottles per hour on their bikes , don't go to the bathroom, don't repair their bikes, don't put on or remove clothing, don't receive medical care on their bicycle... All while in motion.. So is bike riding and racing dangerous? Yes of course. But the number of people who are disfigured or permanently disabled are seldom from pro ranks. Because people don't know, video of routine riding is not available, body contact just happens inconsequentially in pro ranks and seldom with millions of regular bike riders and even serious hobbyists who race regularly.. A head or shoulder strike to another rider is not a normal thing for non pros. In my opinion body contact results in way way fewer crashes than it causes.
Click to expand...
First of all we are talking about professional racing here. Therefore only ones crashing during professional races are relevant for this topic and conversation.
Sure, a lot of crashes happen with no contact. Some happen when equipment malfunctions (seemingly with ever increasing frequency recently because of the ridiculous hookless tubeless...). Some happen because of a rider's fault (seemingly with ever increasing frequency because of the unnecessary disk brakes). All of these issues need to be addresses.
However, my post was regarding what I see is the biggest cause for crashes. That is risk taking by the riders and making dirty moves. Ayuso's actions fall under both risk taking and making a dirty move and it is my belief that it needs to be sanctioned so that some non-negligible subset of all the causes for crashes can be eliminated.
 
D

Divergence

Feb 27, 2023
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Yet again a huge crash in a "sprint" stage. In my opinion such pan flat races do not belong to road cycling, but OK, this is a one off race and the "sprinters" can go ahead and race it.
However, there should never be, under any circumstances such stages, in the big stage races and in grand tours. There are just too many rider in the end, they are reckless, they are doing the infamous "let me turn around to see where my spinner is" and it is unacceptably dangerous. The SQS rider should be banned for a couple of month for that and an ever more rigorous sentence should be introduced for looking back in the subsequent races.
 
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Peyroteo94

Peyroteo94

Mar 20, 2022
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Divergence said:
Yet again a huge crash in a "sprint" stage. In my opinion such pan flat races do not belong to road cycling, but OK, this is a one off race and the "sprinters" can go ahead and race it.
However, there should never be, under any circumstances such stages, in the big stage races and in grand tours. There are just too many rider in the end, they are reckless, they are doing the infamous "let me turn around to see where my spinner is" and it is unacceptably dangerous. The SQS rider should be banned for a couple of month for that and an ever more rigorous sentence should be introduced for looking back in the subsequent races.
Click to expand...
We are way better now in flat stages. 3 km rule and in dangerous finishes they increase the distance (4 km rule or even 5). I don't remember a nasty massive crash in the Tour since Opi Oumi
 
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