Crashes, what can be done?

[Divergence]

But it wasn't a (totally) flat stage.

Sure, but I was referring to the move "looking back for your teammate". And this move is more common when there is a sprint stage and it is more dangerous when there is a full peloton.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Sure, but I was referring to the move "looking back for your teammate". And this move is more common when there is a sprint stage and it is more dangerous when there is a full peloton.

So in your opinion, sprint stages should no longer exist?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Yeah, but stage 1 of the 2025 Tour being a full blown bunch sprint stage has me worried a bit.

Totally agree. What a dumb first stage. A recipe for disaster to be honest.

 

[Divergence]

So in your opinion, sprint stages should no longer exist?

Pretty much. Every stage should be selective enough so that a full peloton does not arrive at the end. For sprint lovers maybe one day races such as Scheldeprijs and De Panne can stay and , of course, there is track cycling for those people as well. In general, I have no reason to watch riders with a physique such as Groenewegen or Cavendish.

 

[hayneplane]

Pretty much. Every stage should be selective enough so that a full peloton does not arrive at the end. For sprint lovers maybe one day races such as Scheldeprijs and De Panne can stay and , of course, there is track cycling for those people as well. In general, I have no reason to watch riders with a physique such as Groenewegen or Cavendish.

Groenewegen and Cavendish were both bunch sprinters but they have very different physiques.

 

[Divergence]

Groenewegen and Cavendish were both bunch sprinters but they have very different physiques.

Not to be nit-picky but how did you add to the conversation with your post. Yes, neither Cav's nor Dylan's rider type is appealing to me.

 

[hayneplane]

Not to be nit-picky but how did you add to the conversation with your post. Yes, neither Cav's nor Dylan's rider type is appealing to me.

I was just making the point that they are very different despite both having the same specialist skills.

Contador and Basso were both strong climbers but the former was a standing on the pedals stop start rhythm climber and the latter a seated constant power tempo grinder.

I actually agree with you that far too much racing is not selective enough and ends with bunch finishes where the winner has done less than 250 metres with their nose in the wind.

 

[RedheadDane]

Pretty much. Every stage should be selective enough so that a full peloton does not arrive at the end. For sprint lovers maybe one day races such as Scheldeprijs and De Panne can stay and , of course, there is track cycling for those people as well. In general, I have no reason to watch riders with a physique such as Groenewegen or Cavendish.

So, you're basically saying that a specific type of riders, that you just don't happen to care much for, should only have one or two chances at winning each year?
And don't say "track cycling", I don't know if you're aware, but not all sprinters are track cyclists...

 

[jmdirt]

Pretty much. Every stage should be selective enough so that a full peloton does not arrive at the end. For sprint lovers maybe one day races such as Scheldeprijs and De Panne can stay and , of course, there is track cycling for those people as well. In general, I have no reason to watch riders with a physique such as Groenewegen or Cavendish.

removed by jmdirt

 

[Unchained]

To answer the question of the thread.. Crashes what can be done?
1. no wheels with a profile over 35mm
2. Handlebars with minimum width of 38
3. Seat position no more than 5cm in front of bottom bracket shell
4. No stem length over 130.
5. Find something human, something reasonable for stack and reach on race bikes
6. No tire width over 30mm

 

[jmdirt]

Sure, a lot of crashes happen with no contact. Some happen when equipment malfunctions (seemingly with ever increasing frequency recently because of the ridiculous hookless tubeless...). Some happen because of a rider's fault (seemingly with ever increasing frequency because of the unnecessary disk brakes). All of these issues need to be addresses.

Please provide data for both of these.
-also please include the number of teams who use hookless bead rims.

 

[jmdirt]

I can't find the research summary, but this ENVE description/explanation covers most of it:

The Hookless Bead, How it Works, and Who They’re For

If you’re reading this article, there’s a high probability you already own a pair of wheels featuring a hookless straight sidewall rim design or you are currently shopping for some and trying to figure out what to buy. If you haven’t bought a new wheelset in some time, you’re likely wondering...

enve.com

Disclaimer: I don't own any ENVE products.

 

[veganrob]

I have been riding Enve wheels for 15 years. I think they are the best. Main wheels now are SES 4.5 Hookless. 30mm Pirelli P Zero tires. Best ride ever. I also have Hunt Hookless for gravel bikes. Also exceptional. Never any hiccups with either ones. I much prefer the hookless

 

[Divergence]

Mod please move this post to the off topic section...

Sprinters cause crashes. There is nothing off topic there.
It is true that I do not like sprint stages and I believe that type of rider should just become obsolete or they should race on the track. You can have your own opinions but if you cannot surmise that there are much fewer crashes on MTF vs sprint stages I cannot help you further.

Hookles is a dangerous technology at the moment, but you can believe what you want.

 

[jmdirt]

Sprinters cause crashes. There is nothing off topic there.
It is true that I do not like sprint stages and I believe that type of rider should just become obsolete or they should race on the track. You can have your own opinions but if you cannot surmise that there are much fewer crashes on MTF vs sprint stages I cannot help you further.

Hookles is a dangerous technology at the moment, but you can believe what you want.

I'm sorry that you wouldn't take the time to educate yourself on hookless rims/tires. Its not "dangerous technology". Granted, in cycling there is some poor engineering and manufacturing that can make for dangerous situations, but that has improved over the last several years. Poor application is also a factor that can make for a bad situation, but that is on the user/mechanic, not the rim/tire.

I 'believe what I want' because I read the research, and follow manufacturer guidelines instead of relying on hyperbole from "X" for information.

I'm still waiting for your supporting data...

 

[Divergence]

I'm sorry that you wouldn't take the time to educate yourself on hookless rims/tires. Its not "dangerous technology". Granted, in cycling there is some poor engineering and manufacturing that can make for dangerous situations, but that has improved over the last several years. Poor application is also a factor that can make for a bad situation, but that is on the user/mechanic, not the rim/tire.

I 'believe what I want' because I read the research, and follow manufacturer guidelines instead of relying on hyperbole from "X" for information.

I'm still waiting for your supporting data...

I do not see you presenting any data either. I do not have the numbers nor the inclination to compile a report. However, I believe the hookless/tubeless combo is a very dangerous one and there have been 2 or 3 very prominent crashes caused by this combo. Luckily they did not lead to major catastrophes for a big number of riders but the way those crashes happened is worrying in my opinion.
FYI, the reason why manufacturers even went hookless is because of ease of production and that alone. Not because of some riding benefits.
Now, how did you educate yourself on this topic? By reading manufacturer's advertisement, by listening to anecdotal evidence or by doing actual tests?

 

[jmdirt]

I do not see you presenting any data either. I do not have the numbers nor the inclination to compile a report. However, I believe the hookless/tubeless combo is a very dangerous one and there have been 2 or 3 very prominent crashes caused by this combo. Luckily they did not lead to major catastrophes for a big number of riders but the way those crashes happened is worrying in my opinion.
FYI, the reason why manufacturers even went hookless is because of ease of production and that alone. Not because of some riding benefits.
Now, how did you educate yourself on this topic? By reading manufacturer's advertisement, by listening to anecdotal evidence or by doing actual tests?

You made false statements without support, I didn't.

Two or three crashes several years ago (edit: using the wrong tires) is an issue?

Tubulars roll off, so are/were they dangerous?

Manufacturers number one priority is $elling so that wouldn't be a good place to start normally, but since I was unable to quickly locate the data (I assume its behind a paywall now), I shared the ENVE link because they clearly pulled from that data (while also adding their info). Bike Radar has published several articles about this topic. I was able to test several sets of demo wheels, on several different occasions. I recognize that until 2017ish road cycling was the only wheeled game that still used hooks (mountain bikes, motocycles, automobiles, ATV/UTV...all no hook).

Tying my last sentence to your claim that 'the only reason manufacturers went to hookless is ease of production and that alone' doesn't fit does it. Certainly its easier to mold a carbon rim without a hook, but are you claiming that all wheels are hookless because of ease of manufacturing? Metal motorcycle/car rims could have hooks without adding complexity to manufacturing, but they don't. Doesn't that make you wonder if the hook is really an import part?

Of note, DT still manufactures rims with a hook, but readily admits that its in part to cover their backside from liability claims.

 

[Divergence]

You made false statements without support, I didn't.

Two or three crashes several years ago (edit: using the wrong tires) is an issue?

Tubulars roll off, so are/were they dangerous?

Manufacturers number one priority is $elling so that wouldn't be a good place to start normally, but since I was unable to quickly locate the data (I assume its behind a paywall now), I shared the ENVE link because they clearly pulled from that data (while also adding their info). Bike Radar has published several articles about this topic. I was able to test several sets of demo wheels, on several different occasions. I recognize that until 2017ish road cycling was the only wheeled game that still used hooks (mountain bikes, motocycles, automobiles, ATV/UTV...all no hook).

Tying my last sentence to your claim that 'the only reason manufacturers went to hookless is ease of production and that alone' doesn't fit does it. Certainly its easier to mold a carbon rim without a hook, but are you claiming that all wheels are hookless because of ease of manufacturing? Metal motorcycle/car rims could have hooks without adding complexity to manufacturing, but they don't. Doesn't that make you wonder if the hook is really an import part?

Of note, DT still manufactures rims with a hook, but readily admits that its in part to cover their backside from liability claims.

What false statements? That hookless rims for cycling is a dangerous technology? I do not consider it to be a false statement.

Yes, it is an issue.

I have not seen a catastrophic tubular failure. Hookless/tubeless yes.

The job of a manufacturer is to sell the product so I am reluctant to blindly believe everything they write. Alas, I found the article you linked OK and I am wondering if you even read it. There are two things at play here. First, the industry is pushing towards wider tires and tubeless. Wider means lower pressure. And hookless is possible only if the tire pressure is low enough. So there is the first constraint. The need for low pressures. Now, contrary to what sellers are pushing, wider tires are not preferable for a vast majority of quality riders on a vast majority of parkours. Therefore, riders still want to use 25cm or 28cm at 6 or 7 bar and it is the fastest combo. And that is why hookless is dangerous. This topic is about safety in the peloton mind you.

If the local 100kg lawyer wants to use 35cm tires at 4 bar that is another thing.

I hope I made my points clear such as the clear dichotomy between hobby coffee riders and the pros.

 

[RedheadDane]

However, I believe the hookless/tubeless combo is a very dangerous one and there have been 2 or 3 very prominent crashes caused by this combo.

What were those prominent crashes?
I'm sure the crashes were prominent, just not the fact that the hookless/tubeless combo was involved.

 

[Divergence]

What were those prominent crashes?
I'm sure the crashes were prominent, just not the fact that the hookless/tubeless combo was involved.

Off the top of my head Thomas De Ghent and Pog in the Giro. There was some sprint where a riders's tire just blew off.

 

[RedheadDane]

Off the top of my head Thomas De Ghent and Pog in the Giro.

I think we might have different definitions of "prominent crash".
For me, a prominent crash is if the rider(s) involved is/are seriously hurt, not if it's merely a prominent rider being involved. And then of course there are cases like the Basque Crash last year. Or the Dwars crash a few days before that.
I hope you'll forgive me for forgetting that Pogacar had crashed in the Giro, considering he still won by almost 10 minutes, so it clearly didn't slow him down all that much.

 

[Divergence]

I think we might have different definitions of "prominent crash".
For me, a prominent crash is if the rider(s) involved is/are seriously hurt, not if it's merely a prominent rider being involved. And then of course there are cases like the Basque Crash last year. Or the Dwars crash a few days before that.
I hope you'll forgive me for forgetting that Pogacar had crashed in the Giro, considering he still won by almost 10 minutes, so it clearly didn't slow him down all that much.

We all agree that the Basque cash was a couple of levels worse than either TdG or Pog's crash. However, the latter's crashes were cause by rim/tire failure alone and that is what bothers me. The Basque crash is a different story. Mostly rider aggressiveness combined with bad road conditions imho.
May I conclude that you implicitly agree with my points regarding hooksless by not debating it further?

 

[RedheadDane]

May I conclude that you implicitly agree with my points regarding hooksless by not debating it further?

Not really.
Just because it bothered you particularily doesn't mean it was prominent.

 

[AmRacer]

Not one more

 

[jmdirt]

Wheel and tire info here (pay to read):

ETRTO - ETRTO - Pneumatic tyres, rims and valves

Achieve interchangeability of pneumatic tyres, rims and valves in Europe as far as fitting and use are concerned. Establish common engineering dimensions, load / pressure characteristics and operational guidelines. Promote the free exchange of technical information.

www.etrto.org

Bike Radar (October 2023 so things have likely changed/improved since this was published:

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/hookless-rims-road-tubeless