Benotti69 said:
At 8 posts per day over a 4 year period ... I can understand why you'd say that.
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At 8 posts per day over a 4 year period ... I can understand why you'd say that.
Just about to start. I'm excited haven't read a cycling book in a little while.
I have the distinct feeling I'm going to feel sorry for Armstrong at the end of this. Granted the man is a gigantic narcissist (or whatever) but still.
Anyway, I'm going to refrain from reading too much of this thread until I'm done. Don't want to spoil the goodness.
I have the distinct feeling I'm going to feel sorry for Armstrong at the end of this. Granted the man is a gigantic narcissist (or whatever) but still.
Anyway, I'm going to refrain from reading too much of this thread until I'm done. Don't want to spoil the goodness.
Alpe73 said:
And if you researched a little further you'd see the clinic has called it right so many times that the insults about the posters in the clinic from people like Armstrong to Wiggins gives a whole bunch of veracity to this place. That it also attracted so many trolls for USPS and now Sky also shows that it is doing something right.
Benotti69 said:And if you researched a little further you'd see the clinic has called it right so many times that the insults about the posters in the clinic from people like Armstrong to Wiggins gives a whole bunch of veracity to this place. That it also attracted so many trolls for USPS and now Sky also shows that it is doing something right.
the Clinic 12 have always been on the money, whilst others like JV have attempted to buy the sport.
never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Pilger
ChewbaccaD said:
So what and who cares what you knew for quite some time. Are you some kind of elitist? The Clinic is not about you. The thread is about Ms. Macur's book!
UlleGigo said:Just about to start. I'm excited haven't read a cycling book in a little while.
I have the distinct feeling I'm going to feel sorry for Armstrong at the end of this. Granted the man is a gigantic narcissist (or whatever) but still.
Anyway, I'm going to refrain from reading too much of this thread until I'm done. Don't want to spoil the goodness.
NO you most definitely will not feel sorry for him..
gheezus..this book clarifies everything we already knew..or should I say intensifies
UlleGigo said:Anyway, I'm going to refrain from reading too much of this thread until I'm done. Don't want to spoil the goodness.
After 60+ pages of thread, I'm not sure there's much left for you to read in the book...
Qld, eh? online purchase? the stores here still don't have it despite saying it was supposed to arrive back in Feb, but constantly delayed
should have amazon'd it and waited the 2 weeks postage time...
On a side note, anyone catch Graham Norton the other night? Sheryl Crow and Matthew MacConaughey were on - very disappointed that Norton didn't make 1 armstrong gibe!!
Shame, if he knew the backgruond history he'd have had a field day....Archibald said:After 60+ pages of thread, I'm not sure there's much left for you to read in the book...
Qld, eh? online purchase? the stores here still don't have it despite saying it was supposed to arrive back in Feb, but constantly delayed
should have amazon'd it and waited the 2 weeks postage time...
On a side note, anyone catch Graham Norton the other night? Sheryl Crow and Matthew MacConaughey were on - very disappointed that Norton didn't make 1 armstrong gibe!!
42x16ss said:
he must have known - somehow I doubt he'd have never noticed that running shot of the two of them
I'll wager it was a 'no fly zone'
Archibald said:After 60+ pages of thread, I'm not sure there's much left for you to read in the book...
Qld, eh? online purchase? the stores here still don't have it despite saying it was supposed to arrive back in Feb, but constantly delayed
should have amazon'd it and waited the 2 weeks postage time...
Yeah bought the kindle version. I couldn't wait.
I don't really need to read the book to know what Armstrong is like however. I've followed cycling for over 15 years so I'm not really learning anything. But the clearer the picture of Armstrong's character has become over the years the clearer it becomes that he is sick. A product of his environment.
I don't mean to play devil's advocate. I was yelling at the TV when this **** all began as angry as anyone at what I was seeing.
But the human element is what I'm talking about. Sure he's conniving, immoral, a user, completely lacking in empathy for anyone, and everything else from here to there and back again, but I can see where his character comes from also. His mother seems like a real piece of work and having numerous father figures leave him (abandon him). He's bound to have issues. He's learnt the reality of impermanence in the worst kind of way and its bound to have an effect. Unfortunately for Lance it was not a positive one.
I'm going to stop here because I don't like being the one engaging in Armstrong apologetics or preaching like I know what I'm talking about to any great extent.
Sure always remember that he does not and will not ever feel any remorse or feel any guilt for everyone he has trodden on over the years.
But we should pity him before we hate him. That's all.
Ulle - I have to agree
Having been around a number of elite sports people from different sports over the years and was married to one for 7 years they are very often from a place where many of us will never know and have demons many of us will never have to face.
It is what makes them the people they are and drives them to do what they do to achieve what they feel they need to, to be worthy as human beings.
I am also no apologist for the people who get trodden or dismantled by these types; but it is interesting to look under the skin and find out what the psychological issues are of a world class athlete. Particularly in the more extreme and singular sports.
Having been around a number of elite sports people from different sports over the years and was married to one for 7 years they are very often from a place where many of us will never know and have demons many of us will never have to face.
It is what makes them the people they are and drives them to do what they do to achieve what they feel they need to, to be worthy as human beings.
I am also no apologist for the people who get trodden or dismantled by these types; but it is interesting to look under the skin and find out what the psychological issues are of a world class athlete. Particularly in the more extreme and singular sports.
robertmooreheadlane said:
I have returned to University to study for my Masters in Psychology. I have to agree that elite level athletes have unique psyches that often bely understanding. Many seem "obsessed" with singular minded goals. Armstrong is one of those, however the means he used to achieve those goals were abject, base and despicable.
As Juliet Macur describes LA in Cycle of Lies one sees the effects of paternal abandonment (except perhaps Terry Armstrong), an abnormal drive to win, and a disregard for other people that have prompted many to conclude LA has Anti Social Personality Disorder (Sociopathic behaviour) at best and psychopathic behaviour at worst. Keeping in mind the vast majority of psychopaths out there are not engaged in criminal behaviour.
These driven personality traits, transcend sport and manifest themselves in all areas of these athletes life, making them difficult people to be around in some contexts. I view Macur's book as more than just a tell all about doping in cycling and the collapse of serial cheater, but an indictment of a way of life that brings chaos and destruction.
As much as people detest Armstrong, one can hope he can exorcise his demons.
RobbieCanuck said:
"Every second counts" for the Oncology wards...recently removed.
"Cycle of Lies" for Psychology 101...recently added.
RobbieCanuck said:
I think the book is generally contraindicated for patients taking anti-nausea medicine.
Finally got my hands on this and had it read in no time.
Even though there was nothing too revelatory I found it interesting and it confirmed a lot of what I had long felt about Lance inc. Without doubt his enablers like Stapelton etc are just money obsessed low-life.
I felt some bits were all over the place, when Lance first started EPO for example. At one point it sounded like it was 93 but then the 95 EPO discussion is mentioned numerous times and apparently the Tour du Pont in May 95 was when Lance first used EPO.
I was very interested in the Hendershot/Motorola stuff. There were a few riders on that team who have cleanish reputations like Hampsten/Bauer/Bishop but Hendershot seems emphatic on being unable to compete at the Tour clean so where does that leave those guys or indeed LeMond. He did say everyone dabbled at least once.
Another point here, Raul Alcala rode for Motorola in 94, he was at PDM during the Intralipid affair which many believe was to do with EPO. If Alcala was on EPO at PDM, why were Motorola guys only discussing it in 95 or was Alcala not a team-player in sharing his info?
I think the stuff about Hendershot inventing his own concotions and trying them on himself shows how pathetic much of the doping was pre EPO. Sure guys might have been taking stuff but a lot of it had likely zero benefit other than psychological. How would something that worked on a non-athlete be beneficial for a top-level athlete? Amazing and frightening at the same time.
The Floyd story about the sugar also show's that doping can be more about the mental aspect than the physical impact. That story actually mirrors the Willy Voet story about giving Virenque the special TT drug. I think doping can be more in the mind than the body sometimes. Perhaps why teams are promoting this marginal gains stuff. Maybe it is BS but if guys believe it gives then the edge, maybe they will buy the BS.
I think the JV talking to USADA time-line is also straightened out. He first talked to USADA in Autumn 04 but not about rider/teams but rather about methods of doping/beating tests. He didn't out himself or anyone else which is why he avoided any sort of ban.
Alll-in-All, it really showed how people are so money/power/fame hungry, they would literally do anything to get it.
Even though there was nothing too revelatory I found it interesting and it confirmed a lot of what I had long felt about Lance inc. Without doubt his enablers like Stapelton etc are just money obsessed low-life.
I felt some bits were all over the place, when Lance first started EPO for example. At one point it sounded like it was 93 but then the 95 EPO discussion is mentioned numerous times and apparently the Tour du Pont in May 95 was when Lance first used EPO.
I was very interested in the Hendershot/Motorola stuff. There were a few riders on that team who have cleanish reputations like Hampsten/Bauer/Bishop but Hendershot seems emphatic on being unable to compete at the Tour clean so where does that leave those guys or indeed LeMond. He did say everyone dabbled at least once.
Another point here, Raul Alcala rode for Motorola in 94, he was at PDM during the Intralipid affair which many believe was to do with EPO. If Alcala was on EPO at PDM, why were Motorola guys only discussing it in 95 or was Alcala not a team-player in sharing his info?
I think the stuff about Hendershot inventing his own concotions and trying them on himself shows how pathetic much of the doping was pre EPO. Sure guys might have been taking stuff but a lot of it had likely zero benefit other than psychological. How would something that worked on a non-athlete be beneficial for a top-level athlete? Amazing and frightening at the same time.
The Floyd story about the sugar also show's that doping can be more about the mental aspect than the physical impact. That story actually mirrors the Willy Voet story about giving Virenque the special TT drug. I think doping can be more in the mind than the body sometimes. Perhaps why teams are promoting this marginal gains stuff. Maybe it is BS but if guys believe it gives then the edge, maybe they will buy the BS.
I think the JV talking to USADA time-line is also straightened out. He first talked to USADA in Autumn 04 but not about rider/teams but rather about methods of doping/beating tests. He didn't out himself or anyone else which is why he avoided any sort of ban.
Alll-in-All, it really showed how people are so money/power/fame hungry, they would literally do anything to get it.
Ditto. I found that to be one of more interesting things in the book. I was curious as to why we never heard much about Hendershot, but that was revealed at the end of Chapter Five.pmcg76 said:
Supposedly, Hendershot was freaked out by Armstrong's cancer diagnosis. He reportedly felt "complicit" in the whole sordid mess, so he and his wife simply packed up and left cycling for good. He never spoke to Armstrong again after that. He simply "disappeared."
(Macur does state later in the book that the feds tracked down Hendershot during their investigation, but he refused to talk "unless forced to." It is never clarified as to whether or not such force was applied. Another gap in the book's narrative.)
That doesn't strike me as all that far fetched. I would think that someone in Henderhot's position would likely know what type of physical reaction would be useful to a pro rider. Safe? Probably not so much. Effective? I couldn't see why not. Likely near impossible to prove one way or the other though.pmcg76 said:
pmcg76 said:
Juliet Macur never describes Hendershot as a non-athlete. However she also does not describe him as an athlete. But he was a massage therapist/physiotherapist and most of those guys have some background in athletics.
There is strong evidence that doping products such as HGH, EPO and testosterone have performance boosting effects in normal guys. Testosterone especially is given to men with sexual dysfunction, loss of energy and loss of muscle mass and improves function in all of these areas.
Outside magazine did articles on two average amateur athletes, Andrew Tilin and Stuart Stevens. Average Joes.
In Tilin's case he took T under medical supervision. But it clearly had a pronounced effect on his endurance and stamina. He states, "hard as it is to admit, I could see the benefits I was feeling on the bike outweighing the guilt I felt about cheating."
However Tilin acknowledged that T would not make him an elite cyclist, and he noted there was disagreement about the psychological benefits. He stated, "All of which was consistent with what I was hearing from some hormone experts. Doping with any drug won't turn a screen-loving blob into an elite athlete, and even with my 13 hours a week of training factored in, it's not entirely clear to scientists whether T can help someone like me."
And further, "Sociologists and psychologists agree that testosterone and behavior are linked, although the connections aren't fully understood."
In Stevens case he took HGH, Testosterone cream and EPO. He told his doctor, "I want to be leaner, stronger, with better endurance," As an amateur cyclist the cocktails of drugs had a pronounced effect on all of these characteristics.
In a 200 mile race, he had the following to say, "All around me were riders—good, strong riders—who looked as worn out as you'd expect after ten hours in the saddle. I was tired, but I felt curiously strong, annoyingly talkative and fresh, eager to hammer the last 40 miles. The last time I'd ridden 200 miles, I felt awful the next day, like I'd been hit by a truck. After the Solvang race I woke up and felt hardly a touch of soreness. I also felt like I could easily ride another 200, and I realized that I'd entered another world, the realm of instant recovery. I'll be frank: It was a reassuring kind of world, and I could see why people might want to stay there.
After telling his doctor, the Doc stated, "It works," he said. "It always works."
There is certainly a lot of research evidence that placebos have a positive effect, but that seems to be more cognitive than physiological. IMO doping products clearly enhance the performance of the amateur, average Joe kind of guy just as they do for the elite athlete but at a relative level.
RobbieCanuck said:
Now imagine you've done doping for 10+ years, earn your living from cycling thanks to it, and all of a sudden, in 2006, you stop, cold turkey.
And then perform better than you did previously.
Just.
No.
Or that a clean performance is going to beat a doped performance.
Ever.
Again: no.
ffs.
Dear Wiggo said:
What I love is how the narrative has changed from the "2006 Club."
First it was:
They were getting their doors blown in by a doped peloton. No way to compete. Sprinters suddenly out climbing climbers. Sink or swim. Dope or quit the sport.
Now we're told:
Well...I didn't really dope that much. Very little, actually. As a matter of fact, the doping didn't make that big of a difference. Now we just train harder and smarter.
Interesting contrast, no?
Big George I-was-stopped-by-customs-with-a-suitcase-full-of-EPO-and-other-drugs Hincapie added a few interesting points of his own in Macur's book. In the 1995 Vuelta, he struggled to keep up with the "fattest most out-of-shape guy in the race." (Page 103).
In other words, without doping, you were toast.
But then we get this:
Hincapie encouraged Michael Barry to use EPO and testosterone to “make him feel better,” and said that he wouldn’t have to use much of either drug to see results. (Page 195)
That pretty much punches a hole in the defense used by LA, CVV and others. Sure they doped. But it wasn't "that much."
Quality over quantity, and other such marginal gains, I suppose.
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