Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[pmcg76]

So is it the opinion of the posters above (RR, DrMas, Ryo) that Dan Martin won LBL clean in 2013?

Well if you look at what we know here, there is no suspicion on Dan Martin at all. No too good to be true performances, no dodgy links, a good climber who is also tactically astute. Kimmage believes in him having had varying discussions with Martin and his family, Vayer believes in him based on what? I don't know but Vayer mentions talking to numerous riders and team director's. I think he has enough insight to be well educated on the matter. Put all that together and yes there seem's to be good reason to believe D.Martin won L-B-L riding clean.

Really it's not just Dan Martin either, Vayer mention's numerous riders being capable of winning clean but Martin is the one he mention's by name. I think that is the bigger point here, clean riders are capable of winning decent races now. He believes Basson's would be a winner if he were racing currently. I know in the past he also talked about his faith in J-C.Peraud who he coaches/coached and has finished Top 10 at the Tour.

This is more than about Dan Martin, it is about a change in the culture of doping which so many here are loathe to even give any credence to the possibility of such a change. I think Vayer spells it out quite well, cycling has changed, yes there are still big dopers out there but clean guys are also winning and winning important races like L-B-L.

 

[Benotti69]

This is the thing now, you two obviously don't agree with Kimmage on Martin/Garmin but yet hammer Walsh for his reporting on Sky while at the same time saying no way would Sky have gotten away with the same thing had Kimmage being around them. I don't get this.

All I see with the everyone dopes clan is one where they know full well they can never be proved wrong and when we see a couple of positives pop up here and there, come up with the usual "the culture hasn't changed". It's like when Froome and Porte dominate on AX3 Domaines, it's immediately said we are back in the early 00s of the Lance days and things are as bad as they ever were. All this while not painting the full picture that the peloton that day in general was slower than in 2001. The same with Alpe d'Huez. I remember when Costa won his MTT in Suisse last year and his time was significantly slower on that climb compared to previous editions, there was barely a mention of it around here(only one poster). The argument is just propaganda to one way of thinking. It like Kittel calling out Sayar. How dare he does that when we see what Froome is doing. The same Sayar who was in a team who had a positive the previous year with Grabovsky, wasn't in the passport and was spotted with needle marks in the peloton. But then we hear he picked on the small guy and he's a coward. Yet the same guys don't acknowledge he has called out Contador, Sanchez, Indurain and Vino. He even did a lie detector test to help prove his worth. Omerta is criticised, speaking out is also criticised. It's a doping only view.

I can tell you now, if Phinney wins P-R in the future, they will repeat the same thing without judging each situation on its own merits. It was the same with Martin who's win in LBL was off the back of a more steady realistic career curve. 2nd in Catalonia in 2009 to win it in 2013, 8th in Lombardy in 2009, 2nd in 2011, 4th in 2013, 6th and 4th the last 2 years in FW and 6th in LBL in 2012 before winning it last year. No big transformation in the Froome mould but that isn't good enough. So what we have is a huge transformation in the mould of Froome is doping, a more realistic one in the mould of Martin also equals doping. This is what we're arguing with at the moment.

All I see is twisting of words and scenarios to suit narratives and the point of internal testing at Garmin is just one where it's implied that it's done in a way so riders don't trip the wire.

I still have not seen where the sport collectively decided doping was no longer the standard.

Just because guys like JV says doping is no longer cool dont make it true.

JV is a business man, running a pro team in a dirty sport generally means getting dirty. Maybe Garmin dont dope to the max, but IMO, remember, IMO, they dont ride on bread and water. I dont believe Wiggins rode clean in 2009, nor did Hesjedal win the Giro clean and he has hired so many known dopers for Garmin that I dont believe they ride clean. Wiggins and Hesjedal's numbers went up in the last week of their GTs (2009 tdf & 2012giro), which JV convienently blamed machine error.

Is Dan Martin clean after beating Purito? Not to me. Do i have evidence that he dopes? Nope. Should i take the word of others, like Kimmage or Vayer, yes to a point i do. But I dont take their word as gospel.

Sorry you believe in miracles.

 

[Race Radio]

This is the thing now, you two obviously don't agree with Kimmage on Martin/Garmin but yet hammer Walsh for his reporting on Sky while at the same time saying no way would Sky have gotten away with the same thing had Kimmage being around them. I don't get this.

It is only a matter of time before someone opens a thread titled "Is Kimmage on the Garmin bandwagon?" And every meter of the Côte de Saint Nicolas is dissected like the Zapruder film.....and of course the wind, it is always about the wind

 

[pmcg76]

I still have not seen where the sport collectively decided doping was no longer the standard.

Just because guys like JV says doping is no longer cool dont make it true.

JV is a business man, running a pro team in a dirty sport generally means getting dirty. Maybe Garmin dont dope to the max, but IMO, remember, IMO, they dont ride on bread and water. I dont believe Wiggins rode clean in 2009, nor did Hesjedal win the Giro clean and he has hired so many known dopers for Garmin that I dont believe they ride clean. Wiggins and Hesjedal's numbers went up in the last week of their GTs (2009 tdf & 2012giro), which JV convienently blamed machine error.

Is Dan Martin clean after beating Purito? Not to me. Do i have evidence that he dopes? Nope. Should i take the word of others, like Kimmage or Vayer, yes to a point i do. But I dont take their word as gospel.

Sorry you believe in miracles.

Well clearly Kimmage and Vayer believe in miracles as well but hey what do they know about pro cycling.

 

[pmcg76]

I love this opening gambit from Vayer


"Today, there are more and more clean riders. I was recently at some races in the south of France, and I have close contact with many riders, and they came to me to say you can stay pure and still have good results. Many riders are fed up with the doping culture. It does not concern them. Today, the professionals train better and more, and they can begin the season with very good results. Without a doubt, there are more good pure riders at the top level. I remember back in the 1990s, nobody really trained. Everyone was quite stupid. There was no science, no coaching, no training camps, no warmups before a time trial. Now everyone is doing that. The level has increased".

Doesn't this paragraph go against almost every mantra perputrated here by the everyone dopes crowd.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Now everyone is doing that

Doesn't this part kinda oppose the "sky is ahead of everyone" mantra?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I still have not seen where the sport collectively decided doping was no longer the standard.

Just because guys like JV says doping is no longer cool dont make it true.

They did not decide to change. Change was forced on them.

Puerto being the biggest change. Gone was the comfort & safety of Spain and no one caring. Add to that, Landis, TdF 07. Then Afld came in, then the Bio passport.

It doesn't mean everyone will stop or that it will remain. But all those things changed the game.
Then there is La & the UCI.

JV is a business man, running a pro team in a dirty sport generally means getting dirty. Maybe Garmin dont dope to the max, but IMO, remember, IMO, they dont ride on bread and water. I dont believe Wiggins rode clean in 2009, nor did Hesjedal win the Giro clean and he has hired so many known dopers for Garmin that I dont believe they ride clean. Wiggins and Hesjedal's numbers went up in the last week of their GTs (2009 tdf & 2012giro), which JV convienently blamed machine error.

Is Dan Martin clean after beating Purito? Not to me. Do i have evidence that he dopes? Nope. Should i take the word of others, like Kimmage or Vayer, yes to a point i do. But I dont take their word as gospel.

Sorry you believe in miracles.

One thing about businessmen. They will make money out of any situation.
Funny how you think the sport is dirty and there is more money or gain in promoting a clean team.
Garmin are minnows in comparison to teams like Sky, Katusha, BMC etc.
And unlike the above would probably lose it all if a rider returns positive.

 

[Benotti69]

They did not decide to change. Change was forced on them.

Puerto being the biggest change. Gone was the comfort & safety of Spain and no one caring. Add to that, Landis, TdF 07. Then Afld came in, then the Bio passport.

It doesn't mean everyone will stop or that it will remain. But all those things changed the game.
Then there is La & the UCI.

Comfort and safety in Spain still exists. Look at Vuelta top3, Valverde got done in Italy, Contador got popped by the Germans not in Spain.

One thing about businessmen. They will make money out of any situation.
Funny how you think the sport is dirty and there is more money or gain in promoting a clean team.
Garmin are minnows in comparison to teams like Sky, Katusha, BMC etc.
And unlike the above would probably lose it all if a rider returns positive.

Making money out of a dirty sporty by being clean? Hmmm when you are winning in a dirty sport (GTs especially) it points one way. JV selling cleanER sport helps his bank balance, i get that. I dont believe it.

Minnows beating the big fish takes some 'effort'.

 

[del1962]

I love this opening gambit from Vayer


"Today, there are more and more clean riders. I was recently at some races in the south of France, and I have close contact with many riders, and they came to me to say you can stay pure and still have good results. Many riders are fed up with the doping culture. It does not concern them. Today, the professionals train better and more, and they can begin the season with very good results. Without a doubt, there are more good pure riders at the top level. I remember back in the 1990s, nobody really trained. Everyone was quite stupid. There was no science, no coaching, no training camps, no warmups before a time trial. Now everyone is doing that. The level has increased".

Doesn't this paragraph go against almost every mantra perputrated here by the everyone dopes crowd.

It also goes against there have been no or little improvements in training since the 90s, I keep hearing from some posters.

 

[pmcg76]

Doesn't this part kinda oppose the "sky is ahead of everyone" mantra?

Not really. I am sure that Vayer mean's the general level is a lot more professional. Take your average rider from nowadays, he is saying they are better coached using more science and correct methods than the average rider from the 90s, thus the average standard of athlete will be better. Maybe some guy who could top 10 currently in a major race might have been a possible winner 25 years ago in said race. That doesn't eliminate the posssibilites of varying levels of professionalism in existence currently. Clearly Vayer doesn't believe in what SKY are doing and I would hazard a guess that he get's that feedback from the riders/team director's he speaks to as well.

 

[pmcg76]

Comfort and safety in Spain still exists. Look at Vuelta top3, Valverde got done in Italy, Contador got popped by the Germans not in Spain.




Making money out of a dirty sporty by being clean? Hmmm when you are winning in a dirty sport (GTs especially) it points one way. JV selling cleanER sport helps his bank balance, i get that. I dont believe it.

Minnows beating the big fish takes some 'effort'.

Yes the sport is totally dirty according to you. I think Vayer is in a much better position to ascertain the current possibilities in the sport than you are. Currently he seems to be singing of the same page as JV.

It is also funny how you keep focusing on JV rather than address any of the point's Vayer has actually raised.

 

[Race Radio]

I love this opening gambit from Vayer


"Today, there are more and more clean riders. I was recently at some races in the south of France, and I have close contact with many riders, and they came to me to say you can stay pure and still have good results. Many riders are fed up with the doping culture. It does not concern them. Today, the professionals train better and more, and they can begin the season with very good results. Without a doubt, there are more good pure riders at the top level. I remember back in the 1990s, nobody really trained. Everyone was quite stupid. There was no science, no coaching, no training camps, no warmups before a time trial. Now everyone is doing that. The level has increased".

Doesn't this paragraph go against almost every mantra perputrated here by the everyone dopes crowd.

Vayer clearly has an agenda......I wish I could figure out what it is so I can be angry about it

 

[sniper]

Vayer clearly has an agenda......I wish I could figure out what it is so I can be angry about it

of course he has an agenda, it's called "making a living"

 

[sniper]

...
Doesn't this paragraph go against almost every mantra perputrated here by the everyone dopes crowd.

let's say it goes against what some posters here think is closer to reality.
can't vayer disagree with those posters or vice-versa?

 

[sniper]

...
It is also funny how you keep focusing on JV rather than address any of the point's Vayer has actually raised.

what point has he raised?
any new insights there?

 

[pmcg76]

let's say it goes against what some posters here think is closer to reality.
can't vayer disagree with those posters or vice-versa?

And who is likely to know more, Vayer or some random poster on here? You make it sound like Vayer's knowledge/opinion is no more valid than the average poster.

You realise that Vayer has been one of the strongest and most outspoken advocates against doping over the last 15 years.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Comfort and safety in Spain still exists. Look at Vuelta top3, Valverde got done in Italy, Contador got popped by the Germans not in Spain.

Spain certainly has a problem - but Puerto showed that there are people there who tried to do something. While they got thwarted through the Courts (so far) it essentially dismantled the Funtes ring.

And of course the riders you mentioned, did get busted. Thats a change.

Making money out of a dirty sporty by being clean? Hmmm when you are winning in a dirty sport (GTs especially) it points one way. JV selling cleanER sport helps his bank balance, i get that. I dont believe it.

Minnows beating the big fish takes some 'effort'.

Please explain how it helps JVs bank account, did RSC give him a bonus on top of the prize because they won it cleanER than he other teams?

What way does it point? That Garmin are dirty - ok, so JV sells clean sport (even though he doesnt get money for it) but is actually dirty. So why not dispense with the clean PR BS and get bigger results? More money in that, right?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I do think there are more riders now who are clean, and I do think they have some hope to win cleanly.

However, I don't think for a second that a clean rider has any shot of winning a Grand Tour or a monument. Minor to mid-level races, sure. Not the big ones.

 

[Lanark]

I do think there are more riders now who are clean, and I do think they have some hope to win cleanly.

However, I don't think for a second that a clean rider has any shot of winning a Grand Tour or a monument. Minor to mid-level races, sure. Not the big ones.

I wouldn't go that far. I do think a clean rider can win a monument, with a good day and the race tactics in his favor, I believe it is possible. Just to give an example (I don't know or strongly believe he is clean), but I think it would be possible for a type of victory that Gerrans had in MSR to be done clean. What I don't believe is possible is when you have riders who dominate the classics, year in year out, doing that clean.

Winning a GT clean doesn't seem at all likely to me.

 

[sniper]

...
Please explain how it helps JVs bank account...

ehm, sponsorship perhaps?

Regardless of whether garmin are clean or not:
JV knew the Lance/UCI-**** was going to hit the fan long before many others did. I assume he anticipated this, anticipated that there was going to be an increasing sponsorshipmarket for cleanER cycling.
His Tedtalk shows just what the concept of clean(ER) cycling means to JV: business. (and I don't blame him, to be sure)

 

[Benotti69]

Spain certainly has a problem - but Puerto showed that there are people there who tried to do something. While they got thwarted through the Courts (so far) it essentially dismantled the Funtes ring.

And of course the riders you mentioned, did get busted. Thats a change.

Vuelta a Andalucia Ruta Ciclista Del Sol 2014

1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Movistar Team 14:37:51
3 Luis León Sánchez (Spa) Caja Rural - Seguros RGA 0:00:22
9 Michele Scarponi (Ita) Astana Pro Team 0:01:02

There 3 big clients of Fuentes last week. Real change. Fuentes might be out of work but it doesn't take long to find another quack.

Please explain how it helps JVs bank account, did RSC give him a bonus on top of the prize because they won it cleanER than he other teams?

I expect JV shares in the spoils(prize money) of team wins. I expect he has deals with sponsors for bonuses for big wins.

By the way winning it cleanER aint bread and water.

What way does it point? That Garmin are dirty

Yes.

- ok, so JV sells clean sport (even though he doesnt get money for it) but is actually dirty. So why not dispense with the clean PR BS and get bigger results? More money in that, right?

He runs a cycling team for free? I dont know why JV doesn't go for bigger results? Maybe because he pi$$ed off Hein/McQ he didn't but now Cookson is steering the ship we just might see Garmin on more GT and monument podiums.......

 

[Benotti69]

I do think there are more riders now who are clean, and I do think they have some hope to win cleanly.

However, I don't think for a second that a clean rider has any shot of winning a Grand Tour or a monument. Minor to mid-level races, sure. Not the big ones.

JTL got a contract based on winning a couple of minor to mid level races.

IMO the doping culture is still there. Teams have gotten much better at the logistical side to it. It aint hard to beat anti doping.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

ehm, sponsorship perhaps?

Ok, so JV pockets all the sponsorship money?

Didnt know that - I assumed it went to pay the riders & staff wages, travel, accommodation, some equipment, trucks & buses.

Am, if you win more, and bigger better races, would JV not attract bigger sponsors (which he pockets).

Regardless of whether garmin are clean or not:
JV knew the Lance/UCI-**** was going to hit the fan long before many others did. I assume he anticipated this, anticipated that there was going to be an increasing sponsorshipmarket for cleanER cycling.
His Tedtalk shows just what the concept of clean(ER) cycling means to JV: business. (and I don't blame him, to be sure)

Yet he has the same title sponsor since 2008, with no major increase in funding that falls way behind BMC, Sky, Katusha?

Although you do have a point about Tedtalk, that video went viral - over 2100 hits.

 

[Netserk]

Ok, so JV pockets all the sponsorship money?

Where does sniper claim that?

 

[Benotti69]

Ok, so JV pockets all the sponsorship money?

Of course JV takes a big salary running slipstream sports. That comes out of sponsorship money. Bet he takes a shares prize money too.