Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[pmcg76]

I think far too many people are quick to dismiss the variables and differences in GT racing and one day racing.

Lets say a rider has huge amounts of talent, what is the substitute for those who don't have the talent? doping, so lets say talent=doping.

Now time to introduce my favourite guy Greg LeMond, if you don't like that, too bad for you.

Now I think most people on here consider LeMond as one of the biggest talents ever, and miles in front of his rivals in the 80s apart from maybe Hinault and Fignon. So LeMond was far more talented than the others and demonstrated this in his Tour wins. Yet despite his highly superior advantages, LeMond was still regularly beaten by so-called inferior talents in one days races.

Before people jump in and say LeMond didn't care about one day races, that might have been true post shooting but he definitely cared about the classics 82-86 and his results reflect this. He was up there and competitive but didn't win that often. He has stated himself that he was always going for the win. Not logical is it? How could someone with such an advantage as superior talent lose to lesser riders?

Some guys might have the advantage of superior talent, others might have the advantage of doping but there is no gurantee that advantage will always prevail in a one day race. Too many people think dope=advantage=automatic win.

Hell, even guys like LeMond and Toni Rominger still believed it was possible to win a one day race in the peak EPO years without EPO if you were on a really good day.

 

[mrhender]

Which sort of proves the point. Fewer are doping. The positive benefits of doping are limited (ABP). So top clean riders have a better chance of getting results.

And I will be the first to admit, I don't have any contact of any sort with "those who can actually win a race".

Yes... Fewer might be doping -but does fewer mean better?

Just because the average joe doens't dope it doesn't mean that GT top 5, or Monuments top 5 get altered??

My point is... Clever doping isn't better just because it's limited to a minority backed by unscrupulous team owners...

"Cleaner" is better in the statistics.. But current level of same is not the cure IMO...

 

[mrhender]

snipped

Some guys might have the advantage of superior talent,snipped.

Yes and that is exactly the problem.. We will never be certain in these matters.. The same moment you cross the finish line first, specualation is unavoidable...!
Heck, we could be having an awesame talent in the peleton and not even know... Some cling to Dan Martin as that beacon of light.. If he is -I salute him... Problem again.. We will never know.. He can't be proven clean, only dirty.. And we might have to wait 5-10 years to know if he's/was dirty.. If he was clean we will never hear such proclamation... Doping is cycling and vice versa.... Believing any effort is often combined with an asterix.. That is sad, but again we have nowhere to place the blame other that the culture.. And so it goes on and on.......

 

[pmcg76]

Yes and that is exactly the problem.. We will never be certain in these matters.. The same moment you cross the finish line first, specualation is unavoidable...!
Heck, we could be having an awesame talent in the peleton and not even know... Some cling to Dan Martin as that beacon of light.. If he is -I salute him... Problem again.. We will never know.. He can't be proven clean, only dirty.. And we might have to wait 5-10 years to know if he's/was dirty.. If he was clean we will never hear such proclamation... Doping is cycling and vice versa.... Believing any effort is often combined with an asterix.. That is sad, but again we have nowhere to place the blame other that the culture.. And so it goes on and on.......

I am not really talking about Martin being a massive talent even if I do think that.

I am merely pointing out that those with the advantages do not always win in one days races.

Having superior natural talent is an advantage and so is doping, but having that advantage has not always resutled in success.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

I would never be so presumptuous to think the sport is run in a manner that a clean rider has even a tiny chance.

As a point of reference. When I am in tip-top shape, I can do around 5.1w/kg (320w/63kg) for 30min. Riding 10-15 hrs/week.

If I really buckled down i could get to 60kg, so maybe 5.3 w/kg. This is if I really went no-booze, good diet, but still working 40hrs, week.

If I had full pro support, not drink, not work, I bet I could hit 5.5. I am nothing special. Never had my VO2 tested, but I can tell it is not great.

So do I believe that someone who is hugely talented, world class training, diet and recovery dialed can get to say....6.3w/kg??? Absolutely. 380w, 60kg seems totally reasonable.

Do I think that talented, supported rider could ride a few grand tour climbs at ~6w/kg. Absolutely.

That's basically what Dan Martin does.
I don't know him or really anything about him, but I believe that his performances fit the profile of a very talented clean rider.

 

[sniper]

...
While I am not always in the know, the cycling scene in the US is small and word travels fast. For the size of the team, the lack of rumors around Slipstream is noticeable.

JV, Race Radio and David Walsh have used the same argument to explain why they think Sky is clean. No rumors. Zero.

Race Radio has said about Nibali at present: no more rumors, well one, that he's clean.

to think the lack of rumors means anything is naive at best.

 

[sniper]

That's basically what Dan Martin does.
I don't know him or really anything about him, but I believe that his performances fit the profile of a very talented clean rider.

who would still get his *** kicked by a very talented doped rider, right?
or are you suggesting the very talented guys only sign for Garmin?

let's face it, even if doping had gone down from 90% to 50%, those 50% would still be occupying the GT and monument podiums.
this is one the toughest endurance sports here. doping makes a lot of difference.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Which sort of proves the point. Fewer are doping. The positive benefits of doping are limited (ABP). So top clean riders have a better chance of getting results.

And I will be the first to admit, I don't have any contact of any sort with "those who can actually win a race".

Between HGH and the ridiculous Testosterone threshold, there's plenty of room to never test positive and reap enormous rewards over even a few months. Sniper's comment above this one is the right idea.

What seems to be happening isn't on the EPO side any more, but on the weight loss side, which nicely spikes the W/Kg ratio. In a very general sense, IMO, peptides are what's doing this. Which ones? No clue.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

who would still get his *** kicked by a very talented doped rider, right?
or are you suggesting the very talented guys only sign for Garmin?

And in the GTs there are about a half dozen riders who kick his head in every day.

But if the terrain is right a talented clean rider can follow wheels into the front group and then surprise them. If a monument is going to be won clean, it would look just like Lombardia 2014.

 

[sniper]

And in the GTs there are about a half dozen riders who kick his head in every day.

But if the terrain is right a talented clean rider can follow wheels into the front group and then surprise them. If a monument is going to be won clean, it would look just like Lombardia 2014.

i bet the iglinsky brothers looked pretty clean to your standards.
must have been a big surprise to you to see them get caught.

just saying, the only argument you seem to have is, well, this is Garmin and they say they're clean.

 

[RownhamHill]

i bet the iglinsky brothers looked pretty clean to your standards.
must have been a big surprise to you to see them get caught.

just saying, the only argument you seem to have is, well, this is Garmin and they say they're clean.

just saying but that appears to be one more argument than you seem to be employing. . .

They just must be doping, because, well, just because I say so.

 

[Avoriaz]

who would still get his *** kicked by a very talented doped rider, right?
or are you suggesting the very talented guys only sign for Garmin?

If the very talented doper was all out to win, yes. But they aren't, they are racing not to lose. Subtle difference, but the key being they don't actually race until the last few km. The big attacks and counter attacks between the charged riders aren't there. It should be possible that following wheels and tactical nous can prevail on one day

 

[Walkman]

And in the GTs there are about a half dozen riders who kick his head in every day.

But if the terrain is right a talented clean rider can follow wheels into the front group and then surprise them. If a monument is going to be won clean, it would look just like Lombardia 2014.

I have to say I agree with this.

Also, this is the Lombardia. Guys like piti has been tearing it up all season and it will take a toll on your body. Even with dope you can only do so much.

 

[Benotti69]

As a point of reference. When I am in tip-top shape, I can do around 5.1w/kg (320w/63kg) for 30min. Riding 10-15 hrs/week.

If I really buckled down i could get to 60kg, so maybe 5.3 w/kg. This is if I really went no-booze, good diet, but still working 40hrs, week.

If I had full pro support, not drink, not work, I bet I could hit 5.5. I am nothing special. Never had my VO2 tested, but I can tell it is not great.

So do I believe that someone who is hugely talented, world class training, diet and recovery dialed can get to say....6.3w/kg??? Absolutely. 380w, 60kg seems totally reasonable.

Do I think that talented, supported rider could ride a few grand tour climbs at ~6w/kg. Absolutely.

That's basically what Dan Martin does.
I don't know him or really anything about him, but I believe that his performances fit the profile of a very talented clean rider.

You argument presupposes that the dopers don't train the same as a clean guy! In fact the dopers train longer and harder than a clean guy could ever hope to due to the PEDs.

How can a clean guy who does everything right with his training and diet beat guys who do the same and dope on top of that?

 

[zigmeister]

That cycling is cleaner than 60% hemacrits means cycling is cleaner?

Yeah, that really works when you look at Froome, riding like he has a 60% Hct yet his Hct is not over 50% and his Vo2max is not even high for a cyclist.


Dan Martin might just be the nicest guy in the peloton, but that dont mean **** when it comes to doping.

Ummm what? How did you come to the conclusion that Froome doesn't have a high V02Max?

As far as Martin's win. He rode wheels the entire last portion of the race. BMC were foolish with 2 men, Gilbert doing a ton of work to close gaps. Then, when they sat up, Martin just hit the power, rode around them, and everybody looked at each other and did nothing. By the time they decided to chase, he was 50m+ ahead, no way to close that gap, and BMC once again, with 2 guys, just sat also and did nothing. Perfect timing of an attack, and then all others expect the other guy to chase. Bye bye...seen that many times this year in races and the guy wins easily. Doesn't take a doper to pull that move off. A little luck, and timing.

 

[sniper]

If the very talented doper was all out to win, yes. But they aren't, they are racing not to lose. Subtle difference, but the key being they don't actually race until the last few km. The big attacks and counter attacks between the charged riders aren't there. It should be possible that following wheels and tactical nous can prevail on one day

why is Martin the chosen one?
More talent? better moral standards? better racing intelligence? Other marginal gains? More training, better nutrition?
Come on. Heard it all before.
He might have been clever at Lombardia, but there are about 150 participants perhaps 50 of whom are seriously thinking about winning that race.
And this is not only about Lombardia. It's not the only race he's won. To explain all his victories as the result of his racing-intelligence just isn't cutting it. There are tons of guys who'd do anything to swap with Martin.
He's won MTFs in the TdF and the Vuelta, and won LBL.
7th this year Vuelta. Buenos dias. Do we know the last time somebody's done all that on bread 'n water.
Why do the iglinsky brothers and so many others get on the gear yet aren't getting the results Martin gets?
this is one of the toughest endurance sports out there, yes, also on the flat, and Martin is turning into one of the best racers of this decade.
He's also got some of the best medical attention a rider could possibly ask for. Garmin take care of that.

To argue he's clean is to put blind faith in Garmin's PR.
I don't see any real arguments.

 

[Benotti69]

Ummm what? How did you come to the conclusion that Froome doesn't have a high V02Max?

As far as Martin's win. He rode wheels the entire last portion of the race. BMC were foolish with 2 men, Gilbert doing a ton of work to close gaps. Then, when they sat up, Martin just hit the power, rode around them, and everybody looked at each other and did nothing. By the time they decided to chase, he was 50m+ ahead, no way to close that gap, and BMC once again, with 2 guys, just sat also and did nothing. Perfect timing of an attack, and then all others expect the other guy to chase. Bye bye...seen that many times this year in races and the guy wins easily. Doesn't take a doper to pull that move off. A little luck, and timing.

If Froome had a high Vo2Max sky would be boasting about it.

The rest i have already addressed.

 

[thrawn]

If Froome had a high Vo2Max sky would be boasting about it.

The rest i have already addressed.

Didn't Michelle Cound confirm it was mid 80s?

 

[DFA123]

why is Martin the chosen one?
More talent? better moral standards? better racing intelligence? Other marginal gains? More training, better nutrition?
Come on. Heard it all before.
He might have been clever at Lombardia, but there are about 150 participants perhaps 50 of whom are seriously thinking about winning that race.
And this is not only about Lombardia. It's not the only race he's won. To explain all his victories as the result of his racing-intelligence just isn't cutting it. There are tons of guys who'd do anything to swap with Martin.
He's won MTFs in the TdF and the Vuelta, and won LBL.
7th this year Vuelta. Buenos dias. Do we know the last time somebody's done all that on bread 'n water.
Why do the iglinsky brothers and so many others get on the gear yet aren't getting the results Martin gets?
this is one of the toughest endurance sports out there, yes, also on the flat, and Martin is turning into one of the best racers of this decade.
He's also got some of the best medical attention a rider could possibly ask for. Garmin take care of that.

To argue he's clean is to put blind faith in Garmin's PR.
I don't see any real arguments.

This is a good post - it's easily forgotten that there are serious numbers of Cat-1s and Continental Pros that are doing serious training and serious doping, so even to get on the World Tour you have to be either an incredible naturl talent or doping yourself. To begin to win WT races is another level entirely.

On the other hand, if you are looking for a clear rider in the top 20 or so riders, Martin seems the most plausible to me (although I'm not convinced he is). He obviously has great genetics, has been immersed in cycling from a young age and he wins races in an unspectacular way - the only kind of way that a clean rider could possibly win races.

 

[roundabout]

And in the GTs there are about a half dozen riders who kick his head in every day.

But if the terrain is right a talented clean rider can follow wheels into the front group and then surprise them. If a monument is going to be won clean, it would look just like Lombardia 2014.

Maybe he is not really a GT rider. Dope or not. Like say Rebellin.

But we need to ask JV.

 

[elduggo]

If Froome had a high Vo2Max sky would be boasting about it.

The rest i have already addressed.

you forgot to mention that you're anti-Irish.

 

[pastronef]

Didn't Michelle Cound confirm it was mid 80s?

not fully

 

[Benotti69]

you forgot to mention that you're anti-Irish.

No i am not. Musha, calling me anti Irish is calling me racist.

Most of the Irish pros doped same as the other nations.

 

[the sceptic]

I dont understand how anyone can have blind faith in someone who wins in pro cycling.

If I get to see all blood values and power files then I might start to entertain the idea he is cleans. But until then, big doubts.

Im not saying Martin is as obvious of a doper as other riders of course. Im not 100% sure he is doping like I am with Dawgzilla. Maybe 80%.

 

[CyclingEnthusiast]

You're all talking jack **** about something you truly have no idea about, he's a clean rider and you're all just jealous and moaning because your favourites didn't win and you have nowhere else to go but troll on the internet. Get over it.