Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[Dr. Juice]

Would love to know who were considered the first bunch of riders flying on EPO if not Bugno, Argentin and Chiappucci.

Therefore I said he wanted to improve further his results. Of course cheating, but not one of those " donkey to racehorse " riders like El Diablo.
Also, it's documented the first relationsship Conconi - pro riders began in 89. He started to work with Indurain from there and probably with the other 3 also. Bugno = great talent , Indurain decent talent, Chiappucci a nobody. Then of course there were better responders and not-so-good responders.

Back on topic:

Martin seems cleaner than most. He is not able to perform close to 6 W/kg in the big climbs, he's just average - decent although he has the body type of a climber. But he is very punchy and if there's a bigger group before a last short effort, he uses his explosiveness perfectly.
He should match the good climbers on GT type climbs but he simply can't. 0.5 W/kg inferior at least. That would be 8 % in performance, a reasonable difference EPO - non EPO.

MAYBE one of the few good riders who are not on the juice.

 

[Big Doopie]

Therefore I said he wanted to improve further his results. Of course cheating, but not one of those " donkey to racehorse " riders like El Diablo.
Also, it's documented the first relationsship Conconi - pro riders began in 89. He started to work with Indurain from there and probably with the other 3 also. Bugno = great talent , Indurain decent talent, Chiappucci a nobody. Then of course there were better responders and not-so-good responders.

Back on topic:

Martin seems cleaner than most. He is not able to perform close to 6 W/kg in the big climbs, he's just average - decent although he has the body type of a climber. But he is very punchy and if there's a bigger group before a last short effort, he uses his explosiveness perfectly.
He should match the good climbers on GT type climbs but he simply can't. 0.5 W/kg inferior at least. That would be 8 % in performance, a reasonable difference EPO - non EPO.

MAYBE one of the few good riders who are not on the juice.

agreed 100%.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Today was very different than his LBL win. In LBL, he out-muscled Rodriguez up the final climb. There is a stronger argument for doping in that race, given the physicality of his final push.

Today, he matched the others up and over the final climb, and got lucky that noone chased his move in the final k. Yes, you need to be be strong enough to make that move, but its not a case of "DM is going faster than the dopers!" like his LBL win

 

[Big Doopie]

Today was very different than his LBL win. In LBL, he out-muscled Rodriguez up the final climb. There is a stronger argument for doping in that race, given the physicality of his final push.

Today, he matched the others up and over the final climb, and got lucky that noone chased his move in the final k. Yes, you need to be be strong enough to make that move, but its not a case of "DM is going faster than the dopers!" like his LBL win

however in LBL he did not put in any attacks or take any wind until his attack which came later than rodriguez who was already spent and valverde and scarponi had chased. this year he waited even later but was catching and was going to overhaul moreno. these wins are very similar in style. he stays in the top twenty but never in the wind. has hesj do a lot of initial work for him, either by attacking and making others chase or by chasing the riders who are ahead. then martin times his one and only attack just as everyone else has finished shooting blanks... you get the feeling that in any of these attacks, had he gone a little earlier, he would have been caught (as in flèche wallonne this year) and had he left it a little later, he wouldn't have caught those ahead. he appears to need almost perfect timing and a group of favorites who underestimate him -- the latter is likely to change now.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Antoine VAYER ‏@festinaboy · 33m33 minutes ago
@DanMartin86 the real winner of @lavuelta get @Il_Lombardia . NORMAL !

And why should we believe Martin is clean, mr Vayer?

 

[LaFlorecita]

(v) def. clean!!

however, I will accept answers such as the above.

some here can't handle the truth - i.e. dirty berty al dopo fans.

Where's the proof?

 

[pmcg76]

And why should we believe Martin is clean, mr Vayer?

Because he believes Martin's performances(numbers wise) are in the realm of what is possible for a clean athlete. Doesn't automatically follow that he is clean but at least there is some plausible reasoning behind it.

Also, at a guess I would say that Vayer is a lot closer to the pro cycling gossip grapevine than anyone here, so if there were any nefarious gossip(dodgy doctors etc) about Martin, he would likely have more knowledge than we would. Who knows?

Kimmage has put a bit of faith in Martin as well and he is pretty cynical when it comes to this sort of thing.

I know this possibility(of a clean rider doing well) is hard to accept by someone who supports a convicted doper and rationalises it by assuming everyone dopes, because if there were a clean athlete winning, it makes the proven dopers look even worse.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Rider wins a race, rider must be doping YAWN

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Kimmage has put a bit of faith in Martin as well and he is pretty cynical when it comes to this sort of thing.

Yeah, Kimmage has some sort of gammaray to identify dopers, like with that guy from Austria

Danny Boy strikes again, hurray.

 

[Benotti69]

says lots really

Joshua K. Cooper ‏@joshuakcooper 4h3 hours ago
@Vaughters any chance we can see the power data from @DanMartin86 during @Il_Lombardia?

or all the power data from @Ride_Argyle next season?

Jonathan Vaughters
‏@Vaughters
@joshuakcooper @DanMartin86 @Il_Lombardia @Ride_Argyle no. But I'll send you some pics of my terrier.

What would Martin's power data show? Doping? no of course not

 

[melkemugg]

Everything an individual in cycling says or does is an indication of doping.

 

[pmcg76]

Yeah, Kimmage has some sort of gammaray to identify dopers, like with that guy from Austria

Danny Boy strikes again, hurray.

Kimmage's opinion on Kohl was based on his apparent tiredness after a race which is something more than a few posters on here have also used as evidence of doping. Yes, it's folly.

His opinion on Martin is based on him talking to the rider, meeting his family and probably a few other people who again are probably more informed than we are.

Of course he could still be wrong but I would put more faith in the latter approach than the former.

 

[pmcg76]

says lots really



What would Martin's power data show? Doping? no of course not

Did World Champion Kwiatowskis data show doping???

 

[DirtyWorks]

however in LBL he did not put in any attacks or take any wind until his attack which came later than rodriguez who was already spent and valverde and scarponi had chased. this year he waited even later but was catching and was going to overhaul moreno. these wins are very similar in style. he stays in the top twenty but never in the wind. has hesj do a lot of initial work for him, either by attacking and making others chase or by chasing the riders who are ahead. then martin times his one and only attack just as everyone else has finished shooting blanks... you get the feeling that in any of these attacks, had he gone a little earlier, he would have been caught (as in flèche wallonne this year) and had he left it a little later, he wouldn't have caught those ahead. he appears to need almost perfect timing and a group of favorites who underestimate him -- the latter is likely to change now.

This seems plausible.

Now, if we see Martin turn into a top-3 TT rider, then Garmin/Martin will have uncovered revolutionary marginal gains.

And JV knows exactly what he's doing.

 

[BYOP88]

He is the least suspicious rider of the big winners.

This for me, but I wouldn't put my hand in the fire for him.

 

[SeriousSam]

Take your pick from

(i) Every pro cyclist dopes.
(ii) You have to dope to win a monument or similar
(iii) It might be possible to win a one day race without doping so not sure
(iv) His profile seems to fit someone who might be riding cleanly. Can't hang in the GTs as the race goes on. Peaks for certain races and does not just cycle away from everyone 20km from the end. Seems more open then most to discussing doping in the press.
(v) I hope he is clean (Even Kimmage seems to think so).
(vi) He is def. clean.

(i.a)
Most pro cyclists dope, and Martin is more likely to be doping than the median pro cyclist.
and
(iii.a) It might be possible to win a one day race without doping but still pretty sure.

That the number crunchers apparently know what is and isn't possible clean is unique to cycling, and a blessing as well as a curse.

Blessing, because doing better than possible clean is very strong evidence of doping. Curse, because doing worse than possible isn't strong evidence of being clean at all, but many seem to think it is.

 

[Benotti69]

Did World Champion Kwiatowskis data show doping???

Why dont you ask in the right thread? OPQS rider wins a race, with a doc like Ibauguren is anyone surprised?


Why wont Vaughters release power data for a rider?

 

[LaFlorecita]

I know this possibility(of a clean rider doing well) is hard to accept by someone who supports a convicted doper and rationalises it by assuming everyone dopes, because if there were a clean athlete winning, it makes the proven dopers look even worse.

You could have just finished your post and it would have been a pretty good one but you chose to make it pathetic and laughable good job

 

[Inquitus]

You could have just finished your post and it would have been a pretty good one but you chose to make it pathetic and laughable good job

He's fairly nailed it tbh, Contador is this generations Lance, so it's good to see a clean rider win when he has the chance.

 

[LaFlorecita]

He's fairly nailed it tbh, Contador is this generations Lance, so it's good to see a clean rider win when he has the chance.

But Martin might as well be doped.

And if you'd actually read my post and the part of his post I was replying to, you should have noticed that your post doesn't make any sense.

 

[sniper]

Because he believes Martin's performances(numbers wise) are in the realm of what is possible for a clean athlete. Doesn't automatically follow that he is clean but at least there is some plausible reasoning behind it.

Also, at a guess I would say that Vayer is a lot closer to the pro cycling gossip grapevine than anyone here, so if there were any nefarious gossip(dodgy doctors etc) about Martin, he would likely have more knowledge than we would. Who knows?

Kimmage has put a bit of faith in Martin as well and he is pretty cynical when it comes to this sort of thing.

I know this possibility(of a clean rider doing well) is hard to accept by someone who supports a convicted doper and rationalises it by assuming everyone dopes, because if there were a clean athlete winning, it makes the proven dopers look even worse.

it's not hard to accept at all.
what is hard to accept is people believing a rider is clean when there is no evidence to support it.

martin is beating (ex)dopers in a sport where doping is known to make the difference. That's all we have at the moment.

 

[BigMac]

it's not hard to accept at all.
what is hard to accept is people believing a rider is clean when there is no evidence to support it.

martin is beating (ex)dopers in a sport where doping is known to make the difference. That's all we have at the moment.

First you will have to show the evidence of him not being clean. Because that's how things (should) work.

 

[LaFlorecita]

First you will have to show the evidence of him not being clean. Because that's how things (should) work.

No.

If someone says, Martin is clean, that is a fact, the truth, they should show evidence.

If someone says, Martin is doped, that is a fact, the truth, they should show evidence.

It works both ways.

 

[pmcg76]

Why dont you ask in the right thread? OPQS rider wins a race, with a doc like Ibauguren is anyone surprised?


Why wont Vaughters release power data for a rider?

Because Kwiatowski's data didn't show any indication of doping. So if as I imagine you believe that Kwiatowski was doped to win the worlds, it makes the power data an irrelevancy. Thus why release it as those who don't believe in what they are presented with, will disregard it anyways.

 

[LaFlorecita]

it's not hard to accept at all.
what is hard to accept is people believing a rider is clean when there is no evidence to support it.

martin is beating (ex)dopers in a sport where doping is known to make the difference. That's all we have at the moment.

+1

Incredible to see how much faith some people are willing to put into a rider. Especially people who are normally very outspoken about doping.