Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[Benotti69]

Learn the difference between someone defending Dan Martin and someone criticising you.

Criticise me all you want, seems to give you a 'rise'....

 

[Benotti69]

OK Benotti seems that you seem to think you have all the answers when it comes to Garmin, lets here it, what does Dan have to do more?

He has to ride Ventoux on a pennyfarthing

What would you like to see from Martin that would give his performances credibility?

 

[grizzlee]

He has to ride Ventoux on a pennyfarthing

Ok ill give you that one, thats quite funny, as much as it pains me to say it.

i think his grand tour performances are a good indicator. He seems to fade a bit in the last week (looks like same thing maybe happening again in Vuelta).
never seems to ride above 6.1 - 6.2 Watts per kg even on the shorter Vuelta climbs.

As a side note Antoine Vayer seems to think hes clean, alot of his tweets during this vuelta have been about the top 5 being abnormal, and he has alot of praise for both Martin and Barguil. He recons their climbing times are what he would expect a non doping gc rider to be doing.

 

[Walkman]

Do i think clean guys could beat epo users? Nope.

So do you think that a doper will always win in professional endurance sport?

I mean, even within the peloton, there are big differences with regards to genetics, diets, training methods and attitude towards all theses aspects. Do you really believe that any given rider, with doping, would beat any given clean rider?

Or do you believe every doper trains like a mad man without mental, physical or motivational limitations and thus are in fact, already the best athletes?

 

[Walkman]

Wait?! Is it the same Dan Martin who is related to Omertá-upholder Stephen Roche?

http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/dan-martin-pours-cold-water-on-family-feud-with-stephen-roche

Yeah. Guy must be trusted

This is bizarre. I am not saying Martin is clean but that him being related to a cheater is to be considered proof of anything is beyond ridiculous.

I really find it funny that you are trying so hard to pin every rider as a doper just because your favorite, A.C is the worst of them. But hey, what won't you do in order to protect your countrymen from the evil posters on CN forum?!

 

[No_Balls]

This is bizarre. I am not saying Martin is clean but that him being related to a cheater is to be considered proof of anything is beyond ridiculous.

Oh, i forgot how easy you guys took on riders connected/defending dopers, which of course is a must if you also is a die-hard supporter of Evans, Schleck, Armstrong, aswell as a diehard bot.

Bit surprised to see your outburst here. You do realize that Martins statement suggest there are no doping to really care about? It could be a bit difficult then to blame Contador, which comes with the Skybot FAQ.

I really find it funny that you are trying so hard to pin every rider as a doper just because your favorite, A.C is the worst of them. But hey, what won't you do in order to protect your countrymen from the evil posters on CN forum?!

Countrymen? Man, you are desperate. Not everyone is as obsessed with national/racial issues as yourself, doping apologist there.

But, just for my own amusement, you got any source for the bolded part and is that a definitive statement that everyone in the peloton are reading clean?

I have established long ago that all you really care about, regarding doping, is wheter Contador does it or not. Why do you have to be this easy?

 

[No_Balls]

The sins of the uncle shall be now pass to the nephew?

No. It is hardly a statement that suggests wheter Martin has/is doping or not. But, lets just say that i dont think he would say anything that could cross his famous uncle. Kimmage did. Family reunions could be a bit chilly then.

Wasnt it Roche who said they were clean in the 90´ies?

 

[Benotti69]

Ok ill give you that one, thats quite funny, as much as it pains me to say it.

Cheers. It is sport after all and i try not to take it too seriously in the bigger scheme of life.

i think his grand tour performances are a good indicator. He seems to fade a bit in the last week (looks like same thing maybe happening again in Vuelta).
never seems to ride above 6.1 - 6.2 Watts per kg even on the shorter Vuelta climbs.

As a side note Antoine Vayer seems to think hes clean, alot of his tweets during this vuelta have been about the top 5 being abnormal, and he has alot of praise for both Martin and Barguil. He recons their climbing times are what he would expect a non doping gc rider to be doing.

Vayer is more of an expert than I.

 

[Benotti69]

So do you think that a doper will always win in professional endurance sport?

There may be exceptions. A clean Dan Martin might have had a lot of luck to win an LBL because of many circumstances that conspired to enable that win. But Martin was there at the end with all those other riders who very few will defend as clean! How?

I mean, even within the peloton, there are big differences with regards to genetics, diets, training methods and attitude towards all theses aspects. Do you really believe that any given rider, with doping, would beat any given clean rider?

Or do you believe every doper trains like a mad man without mental, physical or motivational limitations and thus are in fact, already the best athletes?

I dont believe that dopers train less than clean riders. Recent anecdotes seem to indicate the majority of doping takes place during training, so ask yourself how does a clean rider compete against that?

I dont think the dopers are less mentally motivated thinking they have the edge cos they have the dope, it is highly likely they are training with the idea that everyone else is taking the same and maybe more than they are.

The question of motivation also comes into it. Martin won a Monument and was in the equation for a second till the final corner crash. Is Martin the only guy motivated to win LBL? Considering guys like Vino were buying it and willing to pay huge money in cycling terms to ensure the win, all the dopers are highly motivated. Otherwise why dope?

 

[DirtyWorks]

I mean, even within the peloton, there are big differences with regards to genetics, diets, training methods and attitude towards all theses aspects. Do you really believe that any given rider, with doping, would beat any given clean rider?

This is a tricky question because it's not just about an athlete doping. We know the UCI has permitted doping despite having physical evidence of positive-level doping. Due to the interference of the UCI and even race organizers, we never quite know if the race is being contested fairly.

Or do you believe every doper trains like a mad man without mental, physical or motivational limitations and thus are in fact, already the best athletes?

This is a false choice as we know there are different responses to doping. The classic example being JV1973's experience on EPO vs. Wonderboy as posted in the JV1973 thread.

 

[HSNHSN]

He has to ride Ventoux on a pennyfarthing

That sounds more like something Riccó would attempt...

Sorry for the off-topic, though.

 

[Benotti69]

That sounds more like something Riccó would attempt...

Sorry for the off-topic, though.

I think Ricco in a McDs carpark was stocking up for it.........

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

No. It is hardly a statement that suggests wheter Martin has/is doping or not. But, lets just say that i dont think he would say anything that could cross his famous uncle. Kimmage did. Family reunions could be a bit chilly then.

Wasnt it Roche who said they were clean in the 90´ies?

The two sides of the family don't get on do they? Evidence that Martin is clean if anything.

 

[SeriousSam]

So do you think that a doper will always win in professional endurance sport?

I mean, even within the peloton, there are big differences with regards to genetics, diets, training methods and attitude towards all theses aspects. Do you really believe that any given rider, with doping, would beat any given clean rider?

Yes, it's possible some clean extraterrestrial outlier in every metric of success beats the heavy dopers that are themselves genetic outliers with close to optimal training, diet and attitude.

Certainly not impossible. Neither is getting a royal flush twice in a row.

 

[fmk_RoI]

The two sides of the family don't get on do they? Evidence that Martin is clean if anything.

Roche has said some stupid things, both about Martin and his father, such as this one:

"No disrespect to Dan, he basically became Irish to get on the Irish team to go to the national races. Which is good. It goes to show you that without Ireland helping Dan, Dan wouldn't be where he is today. He wouldn't have got any exposure or any international races. But Dan was always British. Then he became Irish because it suited him."

People try to talk up a rift between Stephen Roche and Neil Martin as they both rode for ACBB away back when. But apart from Roche senior's comments, there's no real basis to a family feud, not from Dan Martin, not from Nicolas Roche.

 

[Walkman]

Yes, it's possible some clean extraterrestrial outlier in every metric of success beats the heavy dopers that are themselves genetic outliers with close to optimal training, diet and attitude.

Yeah, but the question is, how often does the clean outliners decide to change side and dope?

Some say that in cycling most people dope, but most people are not outliners. And if you are an outliner, you are probably going to come further without using PED's whereas the donkeys, such as Armstrong, had to dope real early in their careers to get any further. Thus, the outliners are probably less likely to dope hence the argument:

Clean extraterrestrial outlier vs doped extraterrestrial outlier

is somewhat flawed.

I am not saying that this is certainly the case, but I believe what we see are more often:

Clean somewhat extraterrestrial outlier vs doped regular pro cyclist.

And this is the essence of what I believe. I don't believe people are on the same level naturally, not even pro athletes. I think there are wast differences but that those differences are minimized because some people choose to dope in order to enhance their highly normal capacity.

So to say that clean vs doped is a guaranteed win for the doper is not something I can buy.

 

[SeriousSam]

Are the genetic outliers less likely to dope, ceteris paribus? Ok, they might get further without dope and based on that, we might expect them to be less likely to dope. But due to their talent, the pinnacle of the sport is within their reach, and the rewards of improving relative to the competition aren't linear, they are much greater towards the top. We'd expect them to be more likely to dope based on that. Who can tell which effect dominates?


Those that win are more likely to score higher in every variable that increases performance: talent, PED use, training, attitude, etc. Riders that win are more likely to dope than riders that lose. They are also more likely to have greater talent than riders that lose.

 

[happytramp]

Dan loses more time today. Yet further indication that he's doping right?........(That's how it works isn't it? I can't remember off hand)

 

[Benotti69]

Dan loses more time today. Yet further indication that he's doping right?........(That's how it works isn't it? I can't remember off hand)

yeah cos only the top 5 dope.......

 

[TailWindHome]

Antoine VAYER ‏@festinaboy · 31m
@DanMartin86 is the green card @lavuelta winner. @WarrenBarguil is second.

 

[the sceptic]

Antoine VAYER ‏@festinaboy · 31m
@DanMartin86 is the green card @lavuelta winner. @WarrenBarguil is second.

But Vayer is a pseudo scientist because he says Froome is doping.

 

[Benotti69]

After 3 weeks Dan Martin is only 10 minutes behind some pretty heavy weight dopers. What % is he behind? 1%? and we know that doping has a much greater effect than 1% so Dan Martin according to some is the most talented in the peloton........i dont think so.

 

[TailWindHome]

After 3 weeks Dan Martin is only 10 minutes behind some pretty heavy weight dopers. What % is he behind? 1%? and we know that doping has a much greater effect than 1% so Dan Martin according to some is the most talented in the peloton........i dont think so.

6w/kg to 6.4w/kg is more than 1%.

 

[hrotha]

After 3 weeks Dan Martin is only 10 minutes behind some pretty heavy weight dopers. What % is he behind? 1%? and we know that doping has a much greater effect than 1% so Dan Martin according to some is the most talented in the peloton........i dont think so.

% of what, total time? I sure hope that's not what you're using in your calculation.

 

[TailWindHome]

But Vayer is a pseudo scientist because he says Froome is doping.

Vayer is a clown playing to the gallery.
He has no ****ing idea if Martin is doping or not.