Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[blackcat]

So you reckon he could have beaten guys on maybe 60+% HCT? Seems reasonable.


So, the British excepted, you would say that everyone else would actually be riding cleaner (in the sense that the doping has less effect) relative to other years?

yeah, thing is, i dont reckon Dan Martin rides clean. He is implicated by the company he keeps at the pointy end of the peloton, and the top step of the dias.

winners cant win clean, you get too much of an advantage by doping to compete clean versus a similar talent who is doping. Therefore, the entire peloton shifts on the spectrum. This is not an indictment or a value judgement on a particular individual.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

winners cant win clean, you get too much of an advantage by doping to compete clean versus a similar talent who is doping. Therefore, the entire peloton shifts on the spectrum. This is not an indictment or a value judgement on a particular individual.

There is a difference between winning on top of a mountain in the third week of a grand tour and winning a 1-day race because you attacked at 500 meters and everyone sat there looking at each other.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Would you have been one the last nine in the race after 254 kilometres? To be in that position and win against dopers aint done on bread and water!

Yeah Piti probably was the strongest(and stupidest) in the race and most definitely doping but Martin was there and would've finished with 1 second of Piti if he had not jumped in the last K, you think being there to do that is on bread and water?

I dont.

Then that's the argument to make. There are a lot of things to be said against Martin, but finish place alone is not one of them. That's my only point.

Can a cyclist ride 250k bread and water with a group of 7 others who are probably doping?

Easy answer is sometimes. My answer is that it is more possible now than it used to be.

 

[Angliru]

holy crap, that is one brilliant post. sums up the facts just perfectly. thanks for reposting it!

who wrote that piece of awesomeness?

when martin, or pinot, or peraud wins, i can at least believe that it was a true win -- until proven differently -- and enjoy it.

when dirty clentadopucci and piti and scarponi win, i can only doubt, because they are proven serial cheaters with known connections to doping doctors and doping teams, who came back from their bans determined to try and persuade the stupid fans that they did absolutely nothing wrong.

so when they win again, i can't believe it and don't enjoy it. i don't know how any fan could. unless they have persuaded themselves that everyone does it exactly the same. that could be the only justification. and that is why you have posters here who are absolutely determined to say everyone dopes equally. because otherwise they would have to face the ugly truth that the rider they want is simply not very talented.

we saw exactly the same reaction with armstrong and landis and hamilton, exactly the same. the clentadopucci fans are exactly the same type of fanboys. exactly the same.

You are of such high moral fiber that the rest of us dull in comparison. You are a glowing light of virtue and pureness. We all bow in your regal presence.

 

[DirtyWorks]

yeah, thing is, i dont reckon Dan Martin rides clean. He is implicated by the company he keeps at the pointy end of the peloton, and the top step of the dias.

winners cant win clean, you get too much of an advantage by doping to compete clean versus a similar talent who is doping. Therefore, the entire peloton shifts on the spectrum. This is not an indictment or a value judgement on a particular individual.

And yet, we know there are some individuals that did not take that option despite being absolutely surrounded by it with an almost universal understanding there were no consequences.

Izzy's comment is good. A clean-ish Martin on the top podium step is more plausible in 2014. But, again, this is cycling so there's no confidence in a clean-ish Martin.

If Dan suddenly brings home TT podiums, then, IMO, we can be confident about the reason for the transformation.

Overall, circumstances have worked out pretty well for clean-ish riders in the 2014 worldtour.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You are of such high moral fiber that the rest of us dull in comparison. You are a glowing light of virtue and pureness. We all bow in your regal presence.

If you read through that thread, Big Doopie always referred to Big Doopie in the third person as well.

 

[sniper]

There is a difference between winning on top of a mountain in the third week of a grand tour and winning a 1-day race because you attacked at 500 meters and everyone sat there looking at each other.

who's denying there's a difference?
While doping might be more of a game changer in the mountains, the advantages of doping are still massive also in flatter one-day races.
There aren't any mountains in most running disciplines, yet the dopers prevail there. One-day races or TdF MTF finishes, it's all endurance.

Martin is beating riders who dope up to win the races he wins.
Martin has now won a couple of highly prestigious races.
He's a star in Ireland.
His victories have allowed him to open a very nice business in Girona, at age 26.
Why ffs would he be clean?

 

[sniper]

btw, let's not forget how easy Garmin has made it for their riders to dope.
they have i think three physiologists checking the parameters of their riders 24/7.
If there's a spike in the values of rider X, it will be monitored by garmin docs well before rider X can get tested.

 

[TailWindHome]

So.... reasons to believe he's dirty.

He's a pro cyclist who won a race while riding for a MPCC member team.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

btw, let's not forget how easy Garmin has made it for their riders to dope.
they have i think three physiologists checking the parameters of their riders 24/7.
If there's a spike in the values of rider X, it will be monitored by garmin docs well before rider X can get tested.

I just don't buy that. Plenty of guys have left the Slipstream program on less-than-good terms. I have heard bad things about the team, but nothing about doping from anyone.

Sure, any team could have doped riders. But to say Slipstream maintains a team system is totally baseless speculation, and IMO just uninformed.

 

[BYOP88]

So.... reasons to believe he's dirty.

He's a pro cyclist who won a race while riding for a MPCC member team.

2 teammates of Nibali who's team is also a member of the MPCC have recently been busted for doping despite neither winning a race this year.

Is Nibali like Martin, just a pro cyclist who won a race while riding for a MPCC member team?

 

[blackcat]

I just don't buy that. Plenty of guys have left the Slipstream program on less-than-good terms. I have heard bad things about the team, but nothing about doping from anyone.

Sure, any team could have doped riders. But to say Slipstream maintains a team system is totally baseless speculation, and IMO just uninformed.

yeah, Garmin just have an extraordinary coincidence of badluck that good results and bad physiological measurements dovetailing with faulty technical instrument readings. Just such a coincidence the instruments need to be correctly calibrated when they win major races.

 

[BYOP88]

yeah, Garmin just have an extraordinary coincidence of badluck that good results and bad physiological measurements dovetailing with faulty technical instrument readings. Just such a coincidence the instruments need to be correctly calibrated when they win major races.

Yeah I almost feel sorry for St. Jonathan of Vaugters.

 

[mrhender]

Yeah I almost feel sorry for St. Jonathan of Vaugters.

His sporadical presence here could be part of a game he likes to play..
Same as claiming team-clean.... He's currently a player in the game of pro-cycling... I would argue that a true crusader would not partake on current terms.. Unless he believes they are fighting on equal terms.. Which would be a ludicrous thought... If he meant this serious, he would drop everything to be a consultant/advisor for anti-doping efforts from current administrations..
Maybe it would be easier to choose that path if you trusted former mentioned authorities intentions... Therein lies the paradox... So why not play the game..

 

[Benotti69]

And yet, we know there are some individuals that did not take that option despite being absolutely surrounded by it with an almost universal understanding there were no consequences.

Izzy's comment is good. A clean-ish Martin on the top podium step is more plausible in 2014. But, again, this is cycling so there's no confidence in a clean-ish Martin.

If Dan suddenly brings home TT podiums, then, IMO, we can be confident about the reason for the transformation.

Overall, circumstances have worked out pretty well for clean-ish riders in the 2014 worldtour.

Martin wont be bringing home TTs at least not at Garmin. Garmin's set up wont allow for it. But that doesn't mean he rides clean. All that internal testing is for one thing and that is to avoid testing positive or tripping an anomalies. But that dont make Martin clean, far from it. JV is now a businessman and he is in the business of cycling to succeed. That means competing at levels comparable to others to give his team the best chance to succeed.

 

[Benotti69]

So.... reasons to believe he's dirty.

He's a pro cyclist who won a race while riding for a MPCC member team.

Got any reasons to believe he is clean?

 

[sniper]

I just don't buy that. Plenty of guys have left the Slipstream program on less-than-good terms. I have heard bad things about the team, but nothing about doping from anyone.

Sure, any team could have doped riders. But to say Slipstream maintains a team system is totally baseless speculation, and IMO just uninformed.

that Garmin keep their riders from testing positive?
why is that hard to buy?
i'm not saying Garmin docs are helping the riders to get on the gear.
that would be baseless speculation, and I don't think that's happening.
just saying the docs help the riders fly below the radar.
that's not at all baseless speculation. you've read Prentice Steffen's email, haven't you? It's how Garmin work. The riders (blood) values are monitored constantly and results are continuously discussed internally.
Under those circumstances i think it's easy to microdope.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Do I think a clean Dan Martin can beat riders who are performing to the same level as when they were implicated in Operation Puerto? No i dont.

Why do you evade the question? Simple because if you answer it you show by one measure (one that is perfectly reasonable) that cycling is cleaner so you will keep dodging.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

yeah, thing is, i dont reckon Dan Martin rides clean. He is implicated by the company he keeps at the pointy end of the peloton, and the top step of the dias.

winners cant win clean, you get too much of an advantage by doping to compete clean versus a similar talent who is doping. Therefore, the entire peloton shifts on the spectrum. This is not an indictment or a value judgement on a particular individual.

And if you believe that then fine. My question arose because I think cycling has gotten cleaner since the early/mid 90's. You may not believe that it is clean enough now that a clean rider can win. But if you honestly believe that the times people are posting now could compete with those guys...

 

[Netserk]

And if you believe that then fine. My question arose because I think cycling has gotten cleaner since the early/mid 90's. You may not believe that it is clean enough now that a clean rider can win. But if you honestly believe that the times people are posting now could compete with those guys...

Do you think it's cleaner now than 2010/2011(/2012)?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Do you think it's cleaner now than 2010/2011(/2012)?

For GTs once you get past the top few guys there is certainly a case to be made. Just taking the Tour - the racing appeared more more human. Would you disagree?

 

[DirtyWorks]

For GTs once you get past the top few guys there is certainly a case to be made. Just taking the Tour - the racing appeared more more human. Would you disagree?

I agree with this. 2014 was pretty special in that it seemed like there was so much injury/illness it gave the clean-er riders a chance to podium.

But, again, this is cycling so 2015 might be back to many more unbelievable podiums.

 

[TailWindHome]

Got any reasons to believe he is clean?

Believing is irrelevant.
Clean should be the starting assumption.

Now, the question is, is winning a race or races reason enough to move away from this starting presumption?

 

[Big Doopie]

For GTs once you get past the top few guys there is certainly a case to be made. Just taking the Tour - the racing appeared more more human. Would you disagree?

agreed.

and agreed with vayer. take out the very top and you have cleaner than it has been since 1990. that almost happened by accident at the TDF.

 

[Big Doopie]

You are of such high moral fiber that the rest of us dull in comparison. You are a glowing light of virtue and pureness. We all bow in your regal presence.

and a tip of the hat to you as well.